Heating Elements and GFCI

Williams 728
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willynilly said:
The neutral pigtail should be tied to the neutral/ground common in the breaker panel. The incoming GROUND from the brewing system should be tied to the neutral/ground common as well. Why wouldn't you? If you have it, use it...
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I guess you are asking me.

Though the ground and neutral are bonded in the same spot on the main breaker they SHOULD not be considered the same thing. The electrical primer in my sig explains why in detail.
 
What willynilly is stating is correct. A 240 AC circuit does not need a neutral. The reason for that is because the current is alternating on each conductor allowing one flow electrons to the heating element (in this example) and the other allowing the electrons to flow to ground thereby creating the circuit.

As willynilly stated several posts ago there are two different types of GFI breakers for a 240 AC circuit. One does not need a neutral pigtail like is seen in a 120 GFI breaker because it is monitoring the current flow between the two conductors. If you don't split out 120V from your 240V circuit you are safe when you use one of these breakers.

If you do split out 120V from your 240V circuit, to run a pump for an example, then you really should have four wires from your service panel consisting of the two "hot" conductors, a neutral, and a ground wire. In this case you need the 240V GFI breaker that does have the neutral pigtail.

Although they terminate at the same buss in the service panel a neutral and a ground are not the same thing. A neutral carries a current - a ground wire should not. A neutral completes the circuit to ground, a ground wire is a safety measure in case a short occurs in the circuit.
 
CodeRage said:
I guess you are asking me.

Though the ground and neutral are bonded in the same spot on the main breaker they SHOULD not be considered the same thing. The electrical primer in my sig explains why in detail.
Click to expand...

On my main 200 amp panel (home) the neutral and ground are NOT bonded. But I did notice that the neutral is not bonded to the panel itself but that the ground is. Also the ground has a seperate bond to the metal grounding rod that is outside. Is this to code? Or should they both be bonded together?

Hopefully this isn't too off topic
 
They may have bonded the Neutral tap on the transformer directly to the ground rod and then run the Neutral from the tap to the panel and earth ground from the rod to the panel. The only way to be sure is to follow the ground wire from the rod, it should end up meeting the Neutral some where. You could measure the voltage from the neutral bus to the ground bus and measure close to 0V. If you're feeling brave after that point you could set your meter to continuity testing and try to ring out neutral to ground. If it buzzes then they are bonded some where. If it doesnt buzz they are either open or you burnt the fuse in your meter :).
 
CodeRage said:
I guess you are asking me.

Though the ground and neutral are bonded in the same spot on the main breaker they SHOULD not be considered the same thing. The electrical primer in my sig explains why in detail.
Click to expand...

Nope, I wasnt asking anyone.

Because I KNOW that they should not be considered the same. I was answering a question that was posted earlier.
 
There is somethnig missing in the_Roqk's description. Neutral and ground have to be bonded at the structure. It is possible that the meter pan is also a CB panel on the outside of the house. The common bond could be there and then neutral and ground delivered to the inside panel through seperate conductors.
 
could someone post a link to one of these 110v/220v dd throw GFIC breakers..
I still cant decide to go with both a 110 circuit and a 220 stand alone..
what about using a hot tub breaker would that be to many amps.. 50 a for a 20 amp circuit
Thanks
 
Spoke to the chief electrician at the company that did the installation in the OP. He agreed with essentially everything that was said here. I feel very fortunate to be part of this community. Thanks. :)
 
CorgiBrew said:
Spoke to the chief electrician at the company that did the installation in the OP. He agreed with essentially everything that was said here. I feel very fortunate to be part of this community. Thanks. :)
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We saved your life :D
 
Henrythe9th said:
could someone post a link to one of these 110v/220v dd throw GFIC breakers..
I still cant decide to go with both a 110 circuit and a 220 stand alone..
what about using a hot tub breaker would that be to many amps.. 50 a for a 20 amp circuit
Thanks
Click to expand...

Check out CodeRage's primer on electricity. A 50 amp breaker on a 20 amp circuit is a definite no-no. There are a lot of 50 amp GFCI breakers out there because people use them for hot tubs. I'm looking for a 30 amp GFCI right now myself. Not as easy to find locally. If anyone knows a source at a reasonable price let me know.
 
P-J said:
There is somethnig missing in the_Roqk's description. Neutral and ground have to be bonded at the structure. It is possible that the meter pan is also a CB panel on the outside of the house. The common bond could be there and then neutral and ground delivered to the inside panel through seperate conductors.
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You are right that the meter is bonded to a ground (there is a bare copper wire coming out of the meter box to a grounding rod). But there is no way of knowing if the neutral is bonded to the ground at the meter. Unless the Electric company does this before service connection. I suppose I can ask my electric provider if that is standard.
 
I bought a 30 amp dual pole GFCI breaker today for my hot tub and it cost $137. It was Eaton Cutler-Hammer brand. I have seen them on ebay for a little less but I wanted it today. Thirty amp is rare, Lowes only had a 50 amp and a 100 amp.
 
Reno_Raines said:
I bought a 30 amp dual pole GFCI breaker today for my hot tub and it cost $137. It was Eaton Cutler-Hammer brand. I have seen them on ebay for a little less but I wanted it today. Thirty amp is rare, Lowes only had a 50 amp and a 100 amp.
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You can get an Eaton Cutler Hammer 50A DP GFCI at HD for $99 The 30A ones were running about $85 there.
 
I bought a 30 amp QO Square D GFCI on ebay and it's not right. Mine uses a "snap-in" breaker where this one has two brass bolts at the top to pick up power. That'll teach me to "save". Went to an electrical supply house today - $100 for the "right" breaker. He has a bunch of 20 amp GFCI's on sale, but I don't figure they'll work with a 5500 watt element. :mad:
 
gfci-- do we need one-- no it will work just fine without one, believe it or not there was a time before the gfci and afci, Common household equipment still not requiring gfci include washing machines (have you ever touched one while it is running?), sump pumps and electric hot water heaters (if you have one you dont think twice about taking baths, doing dishes), refrigerators (if on a dedicated circuit) even if it is within 6 ft of a sink, and dont forget coffee pots--a few still have metal parts

HOWEVER

and it all comes down to a few questions?

How safe do you want to be?, and how much do you value your life? Safety equipment, and that is what a gfci is, is something we dont ever want to "need", but if you have it AND if you use it, it just may save your life.
 
jim4065 said:
I bought a 30 amp QO Square D GFCI on ebay and it's not right. Mine uses a "snap-in" breaker where this one has two brass bolts at the top to pick up power. That'll teach me to "save". Went to an electrical supply house today - $100 for the "right" breaker. He has a bunch of 20 amp GFCI's on sale, but I don't figure they'll work with a 5500 watt element. :mad:
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That stinks dude. I bought a SquareD QO 2-pole GFI on ebay for $50 and it has performed perfectly. The part number (I'd guess you know it already, but...) is QO230GFI.

I just looked... here is a listing for them, and they are snap-ins. Same guy I bought from 5 months ago!

http://cgi.ebay.com/qo-GFI-2-pole-Circuit-Breaker-qo230gfi-SQUARE-D-gfci_W0QQitemZ300350557447QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers?hash=item45ee49cd07
 
Home Depot has a 50A 240V GFCI in a nice outdoor electrical box for $49.00. I believe this GFCI has neutral protection for 120v loads as it does have a neutral pigtail. I will test the functionality soon to make sure that a ground fault trips the 120. This is a pretty unbelievable deal compared to the breakers. Home depot also sells the Siemens and another brand GFCI breaker for $85 which is still cheaper than many places online.

The $49 is called a Spa Disconnect Panel
Model # UG412RMW250P


There is a $69 version with a 60A GFCI as well.

I've got 5.5KW heating 15 gals of water right now. 240 is going to be great! I'm glad its now possibly to do it safely and cheaply.
 
By the way, the home depot site lists the $49 as online only. I just bought one at my local store 2 hours ago, so that isn't true. YMMV, but if you want it, you might as well check. Also Home Depot and Lowe's both sell Stainless Steel-esque heating elements. The ones at HD are $17 for a 5500 Watt and are resistant to dry-firing (haven't ruined to heat sticks doing that before =) ) and are low watt density.
 
Henrythe9th said:
could someone post a link to one of these 110v/220v dd throw GFIC breakers..
I still cant decide to go with both a 110 circuit and a 220 stand alone..
what about using a hot tub breaker would that be to many amps.. 50 a for a 20 amp circuit
Thanks
Click to expand...

Here is a link to one type of a GFCI breaker:

http://www.mrsupply.com/product.php?productid=30326

Do you want to install the breaker in your service panel to power an outlet that you will plug your brew setup into? If so, you could install a 20A breaker in a sub-panel on one leg of the 240V circuit.
 
My testing leads me to conclude that my $49 box + breaker IS GFCI protected on both the 240 and 120 volt legs. For 240, I don't actually have a suitable high resistance path to ground in order to trip the GFCI. When I connected the ground directly to one of the 120 legs, I tripped the non-GFCI current breaker in the garage. The breaker has a test button, so I'll assume that works as it is supposed to. For 120, I hooked up my trusty GFCI tester (err... heatstick that did not survive the dry firing 'test') and the GFCI breaker tripped as planned. I then connected a 60W light bulb on the 120 leg and the bulb worked fine. So it looks like $49 does the trick. Plus the accompanying box has enough room to mount a few outlets as well, though you'll need to cut the metal box yourself.
 
By the way, the GFCI Breaker in the Home Depot Box is a standard looking snap in breaker. That said, I don't know what types of load centers it fits in. I don't know which breakers work in which boxes, generally. I'm going to check later to see if it fits in my Eaton box.
 
I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.
 
wildwest450 said:
I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.
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I'm not sure that is quite fair. There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread, to be sure. Anyone who does not understand the the basics of electricity, the inherent risks in dealing with it, and what it means to to mitigate instead of eliminate those risks should not be using this thread / board to learn these matters. The beneficial advice on this thread / board comes from alerting people to the dangers, educating them in what not to do, and providing information and sourcing for information and components to help those that know something about electricity.

If you previously knew nothing about electricity and think you now know enough after reading this thread, think again. That said, I think there is some useful information contained in the pages that might prevent someone from doing something more foolish with less information and having a greater chance of getting hurt.
 
wildwest450 said:
I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.
Click to expand...

Like the advice I got to rethink my licensed electricial's advice and install a GFCI breaker? I guess I'm an idiot, then. Thanks for your help.
 
wildwest450 said:
I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.
Click to expand...

Wait. What? It seems to me that all questions were answered an the electrical safety issues have been ironed out. What misinformation remains?

I've learned several things from this thread, your take-away was not one of them.
 
I agree with Boerderij...the initial comments were off base, but without the 'in-depth' discussion and shedding some light on it, the issues brought up may have never been understood by those that don't know better.

Second best thing is learning from your mistakes...the best thing is not to make them in the first place.
 
I liked the in-depth discussion on here and this thread in general. This thread has helped me look at my own panel and what I WILL need for my own setup as well as making sure that it's done safely. I'm the kinda person that will research a topic until I feel absolutely confident that either I can do it safely or not at all. If I can't do it myself then hell yes by all means I will find someone that can. If I am unsure then I will continue to dig. This forum IS a great resource.
 
I am curious to know who wildwest WOULD take electrical advice from.

The OP talked to an electrician, which is the logical choice, but that ended up with him getting some bad info.

I'm an electrical engineer myself, and will be the first person to say that an electrician is a much better consultant on this kind of thing than an EE. I've talked to no less than 3 electricians about my own in-progress build.
 
I don't know how I missed this one but I just read the whole thread. I am an electrical contractor with a degree in electrical engineering. I can understand the confusion. The first time I saw a two pole GFI, I was confused on its function and needed to do some research to understand it.

I cannot believe a licensed electrician could give such advice! Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying. How about "I dont know but I can find out for you". I use that all the time.

I noticed someone earlier mention needing only 20A but wanting to use a spa panel as the GFI is cheaper. I am planning to use a spa panel for cost reasons and feeding a subpanel from it. Then you can add any combination of standard breakers you want and have all circuits protected. This is exactly what happens inside the spa. Motors, pumps, lights etc...all fed from one GFI.
 
I can't stay away from this thread. The link posted very early (how GFCI works) has all the goods in it.

I'd like to try and summarize the clever science involved in a way that is not terribly difficult to follow, because when I read about it to gain my own understanding I found it very elegant and simple. Pure genius, really.

The key to the whole thing is a small coiling piece of metal, formed into a ring like a donut. If you take a device like this and run a wire through the center of the donut, you have the beginnings of a GFCI device. When current travels along that line through the hole, electro-magnetic forces are created around the wire. These forces cause current to start to flow through that coil, even though the donut and the current carrying wire are not actually physically in contact with each other.

When current is flowing one way (say left-to-right) in the wire, the current in the coil flows one way (say counterclockwise around the donut). When current on the wire in the hole moves the other way (right-to-left) the donut carries current in the clockwise direction.

When there is no net current moving on the line int he center of the donut, the donut coil itself carries no current.

So.... to make a GFCI detector....

All lines that are permitted to carry current in the circuit (be they hot lines or neutral lines) are passed through the doughnut hole together. The coil will monitor ALL of them simultaneously. If there is a net current flowing left-to-right, the coil carries counter-clockwise current. If there is a net flow of current from right-to-left, the coil carries clockwise current. If there is no net flow of current, the coil carries no current.

All that needs to be done then is to have circuitry that monitors the current IN THE DONUT COIL itself. If there is ever current moving around the donut in either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction at all, then that means that net current of the total group of lines passing through the center of the donut is not balanced and some current has found an alternate way of getting out of the system.

It does not matter if you are monitoring 1 hot and 1 neutral, 2 hots alone, 2 hots and a neutral, or even 101 hots and 37 neutrals.... it is totally irrelevant. All that matters is that all of these lines are passing through the hole of the magic donut coil and that the amount of current that is flowing left-to-right in some of the wires in the group is also flowing right-to-left in other wires in that group.
 

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