Hazy/Juicy/NEIPA

[rodwha]

So I began a thread some months back asking why this was a thing after trying New Belgium’s version, which I felt was muddied and odd. I had no clue that Hazy or Juicy meant something and so didn’t realize some of the IPAs I’d had, and liked, were just that.

Many, many moons ago, when I was first brewing IPAs, I was getting them a bit bitter like a standard american IPA. I asked about that here and was given the advice to make them more West Coast styled using less hops for bittering and loading up on late addition hops. Yet I hear with this NEIPA style that these aren’t bitter like the West Coast style. I’m at a loss here as I don’t find them bitter like other IPAs. It seems to be as though maybe they can be more bitter but just aren’t necessarily hazy and aren’t narrowed to just citrusy type hops.

Is there any reason that wheat couldn’t be used for the haze?

 

[Jag75]

I used flaked wheat and white wheat in my NEIPA. I'm not a huge fan of west coast IPA's . To be honest I wasnt sure about the NEIPA , but ....oh went ahead and made one at my daughters request. My first NEIPA brew and I've never tried one . Needless to say I'm a major fan of them . What makes them juicier then bitter is whirlpooling hops at 170-175* . As far as the hazyness. Mine is hazy but doesnt have yeast and hops floating in it .

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah. I’m using roughly 15-20% wheat in mine. Any high protein grain will give you the hazy look

 

[rodwha]

When brewing what I loosely think of as a West Coast style I use 1/2 oz of Warrior for bittering and load up the late additions. However I paint well outside of the lines by using 2-2 1/2 oz of hops for both a flavoring and aroma addition, which by itself pushes the IBUs to around 100, but still use roughly 4 oz for a long whirlpool (guessing I’m starting close to 185* and allow it to drop on its own over that time period getting down around 150* or so by the end), and also the dry hop. I hadn’t been calculating the whirlpool’s effects on the IBUs as the calculator didn’t use to (but does now). These have never come across as very bitter to me, much less so than say Torpedo or many other more common IPAs.

I’m guessing for this style it’s a small bittering addition skipping the late boil additions and targeting the remaining IBUs with the whirlpool? What’s the typical amount of the later addition hops?

 

[Dgallo]

When brewing what I loosely think of as a West Coast style I use 1/2 oz of Warrior for bittering and load up the late additions. However I paint well outside of the lines by using 2-2 1/2 oz of hops for both a flavoring and aroma addition, which by itself pushes the IBUs to around 100, but still use roughly 4 oz for a long whirlpool (guessing I’m starting close to 185* and allow it to drop on its own over that time period getting down around 150* or so by the end), and also the dry hop. I hadn’t been calculating the whirlpool’s effects on the IBUs as the calculator didn’t use to (but does now). These have never come across as very bitter to me, much less so than say Torpedo or many other more common IPAs.

I’m guessing for this style it’s a small bittering addition skipping the late boil additions and targeting the remaining IBUs with the whirlpool? What’s the typical amount of the later addition hops?

Most are doing zero bittering hops at all. All 10 mins or less if they are even putting any in boil. 80 percent of the hops are going in post boil/post fermentation

 

[Jag75]

bittering hops for 60min - Columbus.25oz
Flavor/aroma .5oz cascade 10 min
Flavor/aroma .5oz Columbus 5 min

Whirlpool hops @170-175 * for 30 min of the following hops
Amarillo , Mosaic and Simcoe approx 1.5 oz total

2 stages of dry hop . 1st stage day 2 of active fermentation then 2nd stage is day 5-9. Its a total of approx 10oz of the following hops.
Amarillo, Simcoe, Columbus, Mosaic and Citra.
As Dgallo said bittering done early in boil and flavor/aroma in the later stage .

 

[rodwha]

I once tried a no bittering IPA and felt it strangely missing the bitter. I didn’t care for it. Maybe I should try it again.

I had used equal amounts at 30, 20, 10, and 5 mins using Warrior, Simcoe, and Centennial. I wasn’t aware of whirlpools then and was hesitant to dry hop it thinking it might not turn out to be good. This one was also around 100 IBUs.

I’ve figured my next IPA I would half the bittering and try 1/4 oz and ditch the Warrior and just use a hop I was using.

 

[Dgallo]

There is nothing wrong with liking bitterness in a beer, for this style however, your aiming for big hop aromas/flavor and little to no perceived bitterness.

 

[rodwha]

Well, I suppose what I meant was a proper balance with the bitter. It just seemed rather strange without the bitter. I haven’t had a beer come across as strange like that. But maybe it was because I was newer to brewing. Most IPAs then had a noticeable bitterness and so maybe that’s why I felt it so off. I’ll have to revisit the no bittering again and see what I think. I have a whole lot of IPA testing to do anyway:

How a 7, 14, and 21 min hop addition varies, how a flavor and aroma addition compares to a whirlpool, and how a whirlpool compares to a dry hop (hop amounts being equal). Might as well thrown in this as well.

 

[Jag75]

IPA's ( west coast) imo are more bitter . Some more then others . A NEIPA isnt as bitter but has a slight bitterness . It's very juicy, aroma of fruitfulness. I wasnt even sure I brewed it right because of how juicy it smelled until someone tried it and they said it was a really good NEIPA .

 

[speavler]

My latest neipa is all flame out and whirlpool hops. Dry hop day 2, and post fermentation. Citra/Mosaic. Non beer drinkers love it.

 

[rodwha]

My latest neipa is all flame out and whirlpool hops. Dry hop day 2, and post fermentation. Citra/Mosaic. Non beer drinkers love it.

Projected IBUs and hop schedule?

Does this wort get boiled for an hour?

 

[speavler]

Projected IBUs and hop schedule?

Does this wort get boiled for an hour?

My spectrophotometer is in the shop. I did still do a full hour boil..

 

[wepeeler]

The original post is opposite of what I would view to be West Coast vs NEIPA. West Coast is more bitter, clear, thin, piney, grapefruit. NEIPAs are citrus, juicy, mostly hazy, softer mouthfeel. Both WC and NEIPAs can follow similar hop schedules, but the norm for awhile now is later hop additions for NEIPAs, sometimes even all after flameout, giving all flavor and aroma, with much less noticeable bitterness. NEIPAs can actually have high IBUs, but you don't perceive them the same way, because of the late addition and adjuncts, such as wheat and oats. Also, many NEIPAs are dry hopped, adding a ton of aroma, but very little bitterness.

 

[wepeeler]

Most are doing zero bittering hops at all. All 10 mins or less if they are even putting any in boil. 80 percent of the hops are going in post boil/post fermentation

I did that for awhile, as that's what I was told for the style, by a local commercial brewery. But honestly, I've gone back to a low bittering charge and adding small amounts of hops during the boil. I still add most of my hops after flameout, but I feel like the beer lacks complexity if I don't use any hops during the boil.

 

[GnenieGone]

Try starting your whirlpool additions below 150F. Juicy city!

 

[rodwha]

The original post is opposite of what I would view to be West Coast vs NEIPA. West Coast is more bitter, clear, thin, piney, grapefruit. NEIPAs are citrus, juicy, mostly hazy, softer mouthfeel. Both WC and NEIPAs can follow similar hop schedules, but the norm for awhile now is later hop additions for NEIPAs, sometimes even all after flameout, giving all flavor and aroma, with much less noticeable bitterness. NEIPAs can actually have high IBUs, but you don't perceive them the same way, because of the late addition and adjuncts, such as wheat and oats. Also, many NEIPAs are dry hopped, adding a ton of aroma, but very little bitterness.

Hmmmm... Quite frankly most IPAs don’t seem to state whether or not they are an American IPA vs a west coast style. But the ones I was making years back had an upfront bold bitterness that was more than the various IPAs I had tried, and I asked here back then as was told to reduce my bittering hops and load more inthe end like a west coast style. So maybe the “American” version can be more bitter whereas the west coast is often less, and now the Hazy/Juicy/NEIPA style is even less than that? The ones I make tend to be less bitter than the typical IPAs I find around here. Maybe mine are falling somewhere inbetween even the west cost and NE.

I’m wondering if the lack of complexity you notice is along the lines of what I noticed. It seemed a bit off or strange, and I chalked it up to the lack of bittering.

 

[rodwha]

Try starting your whirlpool additions below 150F. Juicy city!

I recall reading long ago that there’s two general schools on whirlpool temps. Around 185 and it’s more flavor and around 155 it’s more aroma. Is this along the lines of what you are seeing?

I haven’t really targeted a specific temp. I cut the heat and get it off the burner and then dig around with tongs to pull the muslin bags out. Then I place my wort chiller in which I assume gets me somewhere around the 185* mark +/-, and then add my large tea baskets (huge tea ball sold at World Market) with whirlpool hops occasionally stirring for 49 mins.

I’ve read the thought is is that it adds about 1/4 the IBUs with all of the flavor you might expect. But I notice Brewer’s Friend calculated 10%. What say you?

 

[GnenieGone]

I recall reading long ago that there’s two general schools on whirlpool temps. Around 185 and it’s more flavor and around 155 it’s more aroma. Is this along the lines of what you are seeing?

I haven’t really targeted a specific temp. I cut the heat and get it off the burner and then dig around with tongs to pull the muslin bags out. Then I place my wort chiller in which I assume gets me somewhere around the 185* mark +/-, and then add my large tea baskets (huge tea ball sold at World Market) with whirlpool hops occasionally stirring for 49 mins.

I’ve read the thought is is that it adds about 1/4 the IBUs with all of the flavor you might expect. But I notice Brewer’s Friend calculated 10%. What say you?

My basic justification. Of all the WCIPAs, doing WP below 150F were the best. You can see the oil sheen on top prior to transferring to fermenter. I'm drooling now just thinking about it!

 

[Dgallo]

I did that for awhile, as that's what I was told for the style, by a local commercial brewery. But honestly, I've gone back to a low bittering charge and adding small amounts of hops during the boil. I still add most of my hops after flameout, but I feel like the beer lacks complexity if I don't use any hops during the boil.

I will stand by no bittering addition. I still use 20% of my hops in boil and first addition is at 20 mins. Not saying it can’t be done differently but I’m getting success this way

 

[rodwha]

My basic justification. Of all the WCIPAs, doing WP below 150F were the best. You can see the oil sheen on top prior to transferring to fermenter. I'm drooling now just thinking about it!
View attachment 604609

Seems I have another comparative test to do!

 

[wepeeler]

I will stand by no bittering addition. I still use 20% of my hops in boil and first addition is at 20 mins. Not saying it can’t be done differently but I’m getting success this way

I'd be very interested in doing a side by side taste test of our brews and pick each other's brains. Most everyone I've shared my neipas with say that it needs to be more bitter. I tend to like my beers less bitter, so I notoriously go light on the bitter addition, but completely removing it seems like you'd end up with sweet juice. Obviously there's so many ways to make this style, and everyone seems to have their own take on it!

 

[wepeeler]

Hmmmm... Quite frankly most IPAs don’t seem to state whether or not they are an American IPA vs a west coast style. But the ones I was making years back had an upfront bold bitterness that was more than the various IPAs I had tried, and I asked here back then as was told to reduce my bittering hops and load more inthe end like a west coast style. So maybe the “American” version can be more bitter whereas the west coast is often less, and now the Hazy/Juicy/NEIPA style is even less than that? The ones I make tend to be less bitter than the typical IPAs I find around here. Maybe mine are falling somewhere inbetween even the west cost and NE.

I’m wondering if the lack of complexity you notice is along the lines of what I noticed. It seemed a bit off or strange, and I chalked it up to the lack of bittering.

I'm sure your beer is probably right in the middle, if you're doing what you say you're doing. 95% of the neipas I've tasted are just not bitter up front, like you tend to get with WC IPAs. Obviously there are exceptions, but the styles are totally different.

And I'm not sure about the complexity issue. Some great advice I was given is to think of drinking a beer much like how you brew a beer. You get bitterness up front just like you add the bittering hops first. You taste flavor in the middle just like adding hops at say 20 minutes, or middle of boil, for flavor. Then the aftertaste comes from late hop additions. When I did all flameout, my beer lacked something in the middle ie flavor hops added in the boil.

 

[Dgallo]

I'd be very interested in doing a side by side taste test of our brews and pick each other's brains. Most everyone I've shared my neipas with say that it needs to be more bitter. I tend to like my beers less bitter, so I notoriously go light on the bitter addition, but completely removing it seems like you'd end up with sweet juice. Obviously there's so many ways to make this style, and everyone seems to have their own take on it!

We can def do a trade if your open for it. I too aim for just a tad bitterness in it. I tend to pick that up in the whirlpool. Tuesday I’m Brewing two beers. Same beer essentially but one will be a NEIPA and the other will be a WC. Using two new hops for me, Medusa and Huell Melon, I want to see how they perform in both styles.

 

[rodwha]

So I’ve now tried several beers from this style, and granted maybe these aren’t the most stellar (except for our local Electric Jellyfish), but I’ve noticed a theme so far, which is almost a muddied hoppiness. They’ve been hoppy for sure, but compare to a few other styles of IPA, and the ones I brew that I was instructed by members here to greatly reduce the bittering and add on to the other day end, these are muted in comparison. I have a few more brands in the fridge to try but out of the half dozen or so I’ve seen the same thing.

I promote beers, and two that I’ve been doing (Sam Adams NEIPA and Shiner’s Wicked Juicy) have sold fairly well to those who don’t appreciate the abounding hopforwardness of many IPAs. Granted these two are a bit more muted than the others I’ve tried, but they still have more in common.

And this is fine if this is the style. I don’t dislike them as I did the New Belgium version, but I’m surprised the hoppiness is so muted, and that’s there’s a muddiness to them. I blame New Belgium’s version on The Hefeweizen yeast they use, which seems quite peculiar.

 

[rodwha]

Ultimately my wife and I both feel that the hops are no longer forefront and the star, that when it says Juicy it should be juicy, which they haven’t been. The hop flavors are smoother over with this muddiness, which we find peculiar for an IPA.

I don’t understand why the haziness either. Not that I’m against it per se, but it just seems odd it’s a part of it as per the style. I figured it had something to do with being similar to an orange juice, but even orange juice is more juicy. A lot of people are visual, and I am too to some degree as I don’t care for chunky yeast floating in my beers.

I guess I need to look more within Austin itself as there’s a greater number of choices (I wish Electric Jellyfish were canned/bottled as it’s excellent!). I have a few jobs coming up this weekend and a bit more beer to buy so I’ll certainly be looking at options.

 

[DHomebrews]

Ultimately my wife and I both feel that the hops are no longer forefront and the star, that when it says Juicy it should be juicy, which they haven’t been. The hop flavors are smoother over with this muddiness, which we find peculiar for an IPA.

I don’t understand why the haziness either. Not that I’m against it per se, but it just seems odd it’s a part of it as per the style. I figured it had something to do with being similar to an orange juice, but even orange juice is more juicy. A lot of people are visual, and I am too to some degree as I don’t care for chunky yeast floating in my beers.

I guess I need to look more within Austin itself as there’s a greater number of choices (I wish Electric Jellyfish were canned/bottled as it’s excellent!). I have a few jobs coming up this weekend and a bit more beer to buy so I’ll certainly be looking at options.

I think the term juicy is interpreted differently with this style by many people. Similarly, the term 'milkshake' in a milkshake IPA. Imagine the surprised look on someone's face, who does not like beer, when they take a sip thinking they are about to indulge in a beer that tastes like an actual dairy milkshake.

 

[Dgallo]

So I’ve now tried several beers from this style, and granted maybe these aren’t the most stellar (except for our local Electric Jellyfish), but I’ve noticed a theme so far, which is almost a muddied hoppiness. They’ve been hoppy for sure, but compare to a few other styles of IPA, and the ones I brew that I was instructed by members here to greatly reduce the bittering and add on to the other day end, these are muted in comparison. I have a few more brands in the fridge to try but out of the half dozen or so I’ve seen the same thing.

I promote beers, and two that I’ve been doing (Sam Adams NEIPA and Shiner’s Wicked Juicy) have sold fairly well to those who don’t appreciate the abounding hopforwardness of many IPAs. Granted these two are a bit more muted than the others I’ve tried, but they still have more in common.

And this is fine if this is the style. I don’t dislike them as I did the New Belgium version, but I’m surprised the hoppiness is so muted, and that’s there’s a muddiness to them. I blame New Belgium’s version on The Hefeweizen yeast they use, which seems quite peculiar.

It’s all about the brewery when it come to NE IPA. If you aren’t getting your hands on an exemplary version of the style, then it may not come off juicy to you. Also, canning date is majorly important. If it’s not fresh, you will not experience it fully and it will come off dull. You should try to get into beer trades here and get a fresh can of treehouse, Other Half, Hill farmstead, trillium, or sloop. All breweries mentioned are putting out great examples of the style.

 

[rodwha]

It’s all about the brewery when it come to NE IPA. If you aren’t getting your hands on an exemplary version of the style, then it may not come off juicy to you. Also, canning date is majorly important. If it’s not fresh, you will not experience it fully and it will come off dull. You should try to get into beer trades here and get a fresh can of treehouse, Other Half, Hill farmstead, trillium, or sloop. All breweries mentioned are putting out great examples of the style.

Thanks for the advice! I may need to do just that. I’ve done a little bit of beer swaps with cigar buddies.

Question though, my understanding is no one is willing to knowingly ship beer. I’ve gone to UPS and when they ask what it is I tell them it is various yeast samples and all has been well, though I’ve had puzzled looks a couple of times. Is this basically what others here are doing?

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks for the advice! I may need to do just that. I’ve done a little bit of beer swaps with cigar buddies.

Question though, my understanding is no one is willing to knowingly ship beer. I’ve gone to UPS and when they ask what it is I tell them it is various yeast samples and all has been well, though I’ve had puzzled looks a couple of times. Is this basically what others here are doing?

I’ve never been questioned directly what it is. They have asked if anything is fragile, liquid, or flammable and I just say no. I wrap each can in bubble wrap, then put 2 or 3 cans in one gallon freezer bag Just so if they puncture it won’t leak. Then packing peanuts on the bottom and around. Also, I learned this from @plazola86 , to tape two 4 pack caps together and put pennies in them so if they shake it they don’t think there is liquid in the package.

 

[GnenieGone]

Thanks for the advice! I may need to do just that. I’ve done a little bit of beer swaps with cigar buddies.

Question though, my understanding is no one is willing to knowingly ship beer. I’ve gone to UPS and when they ask what it is I tell them it is various yeast samples and all has been well, though I’ve had puzzled looks a couple of times. Is this basically what others here are doing?

Don't ask, don't tell, and lie.Try Koy Pond samples...

 

[rodwha]

Don't ask, don't tell, and lie.Try Koy Pond samples...

Koy Pond samples? What is this you speak of?

 

[GnenieGone]

Koy Pond samples? What is this you speak of?

Sorry Koi Pond samples. We had a crazy trade shipping year in 2018. Several of us got nailed. After, one guy used Koi pond samples being asked for the contents AFTER getting nailed. It didn't fly of course. I can't send through FedEx anymore myself.

 

[GnenieGone]

Read through this for our hell year. Teaching point ship ice packs in the summer.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/655881/

 

[rodwha]

I feel this is one of a few excellently done beers for the style:

where is the nearest comerica bank

Sometimes I’ve felt that some brewers have been too fixated on the hazy that they lost sight of the hoppy, and the product is muddied. And/or the hops flavors are just muted. Not so with this one and a few others. I really like what they produced!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

there are all kinds of ways to make a hazy beer, to keep it simple I've come up with a very good one, you can up the alcohol for this but the beer is spot on for flavor, but keep in mind I have a micro brewery pilot system with a built in whirlpool and that is the key

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/839665/session-hopfest-ipa/287378

 

[Jag75]

@rodwha - that is a good NEIPA . I like there beers . Have you tried their #13 ? Its wonderful.

 

[Dgallo]

there are all kinds of ways to make a hazy beer, to keep it simple I've come up with a very good one, you can up the alcohol for this but the beer is spot on for flavor, but keep in mind I have a micro brewery pilot system with a built in whirlpool and that is the key

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/839665/session-hopfest

I’m not quite sure why you would be adding extract to the recipe when you could easily bump your pale malts and incorporate specialty malts like honey malt, c10-40, or caramunich if you so choose, though these are only usually used for color not the flavor profile so they are typically used at 2-5%.

The key to bright hopping is not a Wh vessel, though you will get better extraction with constant agitation or movement, the key for bright hop flavor and aroma is minimizing oxygen exposure post active fermentation. Even minimal oxygen intake will mute the hops and ruin a great hopping schedule.

I would suggest reviewing this thread and reading it all if you have time or at least the last 20 pages. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I think you made my point, many ways to create any beer, there is no write or wrong way to brew beer and I only used what I had and it turned out great

 

[wepeeler]

I feel this is one of a few excellently done beers for the style:

where is the nearest comerica bank

Sometimes I’ve felt that some brewers have been too fixated on the hazy that they lost sight of the hoppy, and the product is muddied. And/or the hops flavors are just muted. Not so with this one and a few others. I really like what they produced!

That's a very well done commercial neipa that can stand being shipped across country. It's also a very safe neipa ie kind bland for the style. Not too hoppy, not too bitter, not too sweet. "Well balanced". I would venture to say it's not a complex recipe, but they're able to keep out O2, therefore stabilizing shelf life.

The neipas I try to make aren't nearly as safe. But, I'm not trying to make beer for the masses.