Having no success bottle carbonating - Add Nutrient when bottling?

[JP Smajda]

I've done a few batches of cider and the only time i've gotten it to carbonate was my first batch. And even then, it took about two months of conditioning rather than two weeks.

Here is what I have done...
I followed the tasty brew calculator that has been recommended by many
http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

I aimed for a CO2 Volume of 2.25 Which gave me a recommendation of .7 oz (weight) per gallon. That is just under (.8) of an ounce (volume.)

I pretty much make a simple syrup with that amount of sugar to add to my batch. Bottle, keep at about room temp (72ish) and wait. I cracked open a bottle the other day and it was only slightly bubbly and I could slightly taste a bit of the sugar. It was carbonated like it was opened a week ago and half of it had been drank. I regularly shot the bottles with my infrared thermometer and they had been indeed hanging out at 70ish degrees.

As for this batch in particular, I had let some of them age about 6 months before bottling. Others only about 3. Same issue with both though.

I am wondering if the yeast is dying off by aging? Should I be pitching a little bit of nutrient along with the sugar?

I've lurked and searched around here for a little while and Temp and sugar levels are the common factors I've seen when people are having this problem. Any other ideas?

 

[JimRausch]

6 months aging (in a secondary or on the yeast cake?) is a bit long and if it were mine, I'd add a 1/4 pkt of yeast to the bottling bucket. Even with 3 months in a secondary, I reyeast.
Also, next time, bottle one in a plastic soda bottle. Squeeze the air out before capping. When that firms up, the rest should be carbonated. Peace of mind.
I just read your account a 2nd time. You didn't say how long they've been bottled. Maybe just need some more time.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeast that is 3 to 6 months old is tired and dying. If you want carbonation, you'll need to add fresh yeast at bottling. Nutrient won't help. Fresh yeast will. It will typically still take a good month or two to carbonate, even with fresh yeast, that is normal. Cider doesn't carbonate as fast as beer does.

 

[JP Smajda]

6 months aging (in a secondary or on the yeast cake?) I'd add a 1/4 pkt of yeast to the bottling bucket. Even with 3 months in a secondary, I reyeast.

Yeast that is 3 to 6 months old is tired and dying. If you want carbonation, you'll need to add fresh yeast at bottling. Nutrient won't help. Fresh yeast will. It will typically still take a good month or two to carbonate, even with fresh yeast, that is normal. Cider doesn't carbonate as fast as beer does.

Thanks a ton! I hadn't seen that advised before. Will do from now on.
a 1/4 pac per 5 gal?

6 months aging (in a secondary or on the yeast cake?)
Also, next time, bottle one in a plastic soda bottle. Squeeze the air out before capping. When that firms up, the rest should be carbonated. Peace of mind.

Thats awesome going to do that next time. Squeezed like almost flat?

6 months aging (in a secondary or on the yeast cake?)
I just read your account a 2nd time. You didn't say how long they've been bottled. Maybe just need some more time.

1 month on primary, 5 months in the secondary. They've been bottled a month, I think actually 5 weeks at this point.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks a ton! I hadn't seen that advised before. Will do from now on.
a 1/4 pac per 5 gal?

Yes, that's about perfect.

 

[JP Smajda]

Yes, that's about perfect.

Should I use the same yeast as I put in the primary? Or should I use something a bit stronger? A good champagne?

 

[z-bob]

I've only had one that didn't carbonate, and that was S-33 yeast that I left on the cake for a month until it was sparkling clear. I bottled directly from the 1-gallon fermentor, and the last bottle (where I sucked up a little of the sediment) did carbonate. It was the only one that did. I've used S-33 since then and bottled sooner and it carbed just fine.

It sounds like you did the same thing with whatever yeast you used.

1 month on primary, 5 months in the secondary. They've been bottled a month, I think actually 5 weeks at this point.

Yep, that was it. Don't wait so long next time -- or you can drink it flat; that's not a bad option.

 

[dmtaylor]

Should I use the same yeast as I put in the primary? Or should I use something a bit stronger? A good champagne?

I would use the same stuff again.

 

[Scrumpy!]

IMO you should bottle with a yeast that is specifically produced for prise de mousse. A yeast like EC-1118 has high attenuation and tends to form compact lees. I use one pack per 5 gals at bottling as per the instructions on the packet. Using less than the recommended dosage runs the risk of failure. A full dose assures you of a robust start and does not result in more lees after maximum carbonation is reached. Be sure to move the filled bottles to a place that is at least 70 deg for the first few days.

 

[Kharnynb]

never use a higher attenuating yeast for bottling yeast, unless you like bottle bombs.

 

[Scrumpy!]

The yeast has little to do with over carbonation, it is all about the sugar. EC-1118 will metabolize every molecule of glucose even in a YAN depleted cider. That said, careful measurement of the final SG and reasonable assumptions about the CO2 in solution should be considered when calculating the dose of priming sugar no matter what yeast you add at bottling. Filling a PET bottle with a pressure gauge at bottling time is further insurance against bottle bombs (see older threads by Maylar and me about pressure monitoring).

 

[bernardsmith]

I agree - this is where EC1118 is indicated. Bottle bombs are never a problem in this context, kharnynb. The ONLY sugar in the cider will be the sugar added to carbonate. If that quantity is appropriate for the types of bottles being used to package the cider then the pressure is limited to the pressure the bottles and caps can tolerate. Prime anything with residual sugar with ANY working yeast then you can all but guarantee problems.

 

[Scrumpy!]

My SOP at bottling is to adjust the final SG to a value I know my bottles will hold and fill a bottle with a pressure gauge mounted on top as insurance. My cellar is free of glass shards so far.

 

[FunkyMunk]

I came here to post the exact same question, but the discussion here is throwing me off a bit. I have a cider fermented with D-47, that's been sur lie aging in secondary since November or so. I've never used EC-1118 but have read over and over that it strips ever last bit of sugar and (many say) character from juice when used in primary. Basically, I'm just wondering why EC-1118 would be a better choice for bottle conditioning; in my mind, it seems like the same yeast should be used for primary fermentation and for bottling, but I see that many recommend EC-1118 for bottling, and I'm just wondering why it wouldn't change the character of the cider.

 

[Maylar]

I came here to post the exact same question, but the discussion here is throwing me off a bit. I have a cider fermented with D-47, that's been sur lie aging in secondary since November or so. I've never used EC-1118 but have read over and over that it strips ever last bit of sugar and (many say) character from juice when used in primary. Basically, I'm just wondering why EC-1118 would be a better choice for bottle conditioning; in my mind, it seems like the same yeast should be used for primary fermentation and for bottling, but I see that many recommend EC-1118 for bottling, and I'm just wondering why it wouldn't change the character of the cider.

A few things about that -

EC-1118 has an alcohol tolerance of about 18%, so it'll carbonate even at high ABV levels where another yeast might not. It's also a killer yeast (K1 competitive factor) so it's pretty much guaranteed to overcome any other yeast present. All this helps insure predictable success.

Secondly, the only sugar present at bottling time should be the priming sugar, so there's no worry about changing the character of the cider.

And finally, EC-1118 gets a bad rap for blowing the flavor and aroma out the airlock. Truth is, it's a very clean and neutral yeast with low nitrogen requirements and can survive some harsh environments IF you keep it on the low end of its temperature range during primary. There are reasons why EC is the number 1 wine yeast in the world.

All that said, I too would use whatever yeast I started with if the ABV was well within its limits - just because.

 

[FunkyMunk]

Secondly, the only sugar present at bottling time should be the priming sugar, so there's no worry about changing the character of the cider.

I suppose this is generally true for cider, although mine finished at 0.998, where I've read that they can sometimes go down to 0.992 or so. I don't know what exactly determines the finishing gravity, i.e. why different yeast leave different amounts of residual sugar before they reach their supposed alcohol tolerance.

 

[MarkKF]

A few things about that -

EC-1118 has an alcohol tolerance of about 18%, so it'll carbonate even at high ABV levels where another yeast might not. It's also a killer yeast (K1 competitive factor) so it's pretty much guaranteed to overcome any other yeast present. All this helps insure predictable success.

Secondly, the only sugar present at bottling time should be the priming sugar, so there's no worry about changing the character of the cider.

Gonna disagree slightly. If your Cider finished at a higher s.g. because of a slow yeast or hitting alcohol tolerance then you prime and bottle carb with EC-1118 it’s liable to overcarb or take it drier than you want. Just because the EC-1118 will go much lower than Ale or Wild yeast.

 

[Maylar]

Gonna disagree slightly. If your Cider finished at a higher s.g. because of a slow yeast or hitting alcohol tolerance then you prime and bottle carb with EC-1118 it’s liable to overcarb or take it drier than you want. Just because the EC-1118 will go much lower than Ale or Wild yeast.

You make a good point. We tend to use ale yeasts with cider, and if you use EC-1118 on a cider that stopped at 1.004 you might be in trouble. Didn't think of that.

 

[diyHardCider]

if you use EC-1118 on a cider that stopped at 1.004 you might be in trouble.

You could still use EC-1118, as long as you took that into account when determining how much priming sugar to use, right? In the example you gave, pitching some EC-1118 into a batch with a FG of 1.004 would likely carb up with no priming sugar.

 

[Maylar]

You could still use EC-1118, as long as you took that into account when determining how much priming sugar to use, right? In the example you gave, pitching some EC-1118 into a batch with a FG of 1.004 would likely carb up with no priming sugar.

But EC-1118 might take 1.004 to 0.996 which would be a potential bottle bomb unless you use champagne bottles.

 

[gregbathurst]

The only reason ec1118 will make a cider "drier" than other yeasts is possibly because it produces less fruity esters than some yeasts. Some yeasts are said to flocculate more but in most cider this won't make much difference. If you can restrict the nitrogen by using low nitrogen juice and repeated racking at low temperatures it won't really matter which yeast you are using. Different yeasts will produce different flavour profiles but won't have much effect on residual sugars. Some cidermakers think it works like beer - it doesn't.

 

[diyHardCider]

The only reason ec1118 will make a cider "drier" than other yeasts is possibly because it produces less fruity esters than some yeasts. Some yeasts are said to flocculate more but in most cider this won't make much difference. If you can restrict the nitrogen by using low nitrogen juice and repeated racking at low temperatures it won't really matter which yeast you are using. Different yeasts will produce different flavour profiles but won't have much effect on residual sugars. Some cidermakers think it works like beer - it doesn't.

Then why do different yeast produce different final gravity? Isn’t that a measurement of residual sugars? I’ve read on this forum anywhere between .990 and 1.004...

 

[gregbathurst]

Then why do different yeast produce different final gravity? Isn’t that a measurement of residual sugars? I’ve read on this forum anywhere between .990 and 1.004...

Well, they don't. Unless you take steps to prevent it, all yeasts will ferment cider to dryness. There are various things you can do to keep residual sugar in cider, but they don't involve yeast selection.

 

[Maylar]

Well, they don't. Unless you take steps to prevent it, all yeasts will ferment cider to dryness. There are various things you can do to keep residual sugar in cider, but they don't involve yeast selection.

Not entirely true. If you use S-04 at 60°F for instance, it reliably stops at about 1.004. White Labs says their WLP773 leaves about 20% residual sugar in 1.048 cider. So, yeast selection does influence the level of dryness.