Hard Cream

[coramdeo]

Ok, quick question,

I was making a Hard Cream Soda. The recipe called for 11 tablespoons of Vanilla Extract. My wife had made pure vanilla extract using vodka and a vanilla bean. Mixed up the sugar, added the vanilla extract and pitched in the yeast.

But afterwards it dawned on me that vodka kills yeast and the vanilla extract is made with vodka.. Did I just kill my yeast?

help.......
coram deo..

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I don't have an answer for you. But I just wanted to mention that when I read the thread title my mind went to... well, anyways, this was not what I was expecting when I clicked on it!

 

[coramdeo]

I am so sorry... I didn't even think about it... but I am so laughing over here.... .. I am choking on my sandwich over here and my wife said I am going to get it... LoL

I don't have an answer for you. But I just wanted to mention that when I read the thread title my mind went to... well, anyways, this was not what I was expecting when I clicked on it!

 

[fearwig]

It's about concentrations. Enough alcohol will kill almost anything, but this is very diluted, and yeast are alcohol resistant anyway (they make it, after all).

I would however recommend adding it after major fermentation ends next time, because the yeast release enough CO2 to diminish aroma. You can taste before bottling and add more, if you want.

 

[coramdeo]

Ok, thank you.. I did 11 tablespoon of vanilla extract with 3.7 cup of raw sugar to a 3 Gallons batch. I actually plan on making this a low alcohol batch (less then 4%) for whole family to drink but plan on increasing alcohol content in the future.

coram deo,

It's about concentrations. Enough alcohol will kill almost anything, but this is very diluted, and yeast are alcohol resistant anyway (they make it, after all).

I would however recommend adding it after major fermentation ends next time, because the yeast release enough CO2 to diminish aroma. You can taste before bottling and add more, if you want.

 

[fearwig]

If that were commercial extract I'd say it might be too much even with the yeast gassing some of it off, but I guess there's no accounting for potency in homemade, so you'll have to feel it out. Good luck!

BTW, my math puts that at about 1.065, so... ~7% ABV? Plus another .5% from priming when you bottle. And it won't be sweet, unless you bottle and pasteurize it before it gets that low. Just making sure you're not flying blind, here!

 

[fearwig]

Actually more like 8.5-9%, since it's sugar and will probably attenuate to 1.000 or below.

If I wanted something 3-4% ABV, I'd wait until it got to 1.040, then bottle, preferably in plastic, wait until they're very firm (probably less than a day) then heat to 160F in a water bath on the stove to pasteurize.

 

[coramdeo]

Yes, I am planning on kill off the yeast and bottling before it gets that low.. As I mentioned, this batch is for family..

We are trying to cut commerical sodas out of our diet and want to switch to homemade sodas and homemade ale/wine..

So my direction say to kill the yeast in about 4 days which will give it just enough fermenation yet not high alcohol to be a problem for the family..

My personal batch will be much higher in alcohol content.

coramdeo

If that were commercial extract I'd say it might be too much even with the yeast gassing some of it off, but I guess there's no accounting for potency in homemade, so you'll have to feel it out. Good luck!

BTW, my math puts that at about 1.065, so... ~7% ABV? Plus another .5% from priming when you bottle. And it won't be sweet, unless you bottle and pasteurize it before it gets that low. Just making sure you're not flying blind, here!

 

[fearwig]

I strongly suggest using a hydrometer (or tasting often, if you absolutely can't/won't get one, but a hydrometer is about $10). A sugar-based fermentation could be much farther along than that in four days depending on slight variations in temperature, yeast strain, and so on. Your call, of course. I have a bottle of root beer extract that came with home bottling instructions, and I can't decide if they're funny or scary.

 

[coramdeo]

I do have a hydrometer (somewhere) bought it when I bought all my brewing gear... But I didn't use it before I put in the yeast (which would be required for original gravity number, correct?)..

I guess I am stuck with tasting this batch for desired taste?

perhaps I should confirm the kill yeast method.. LoL It says after 3 or 4 days to put the batch in a refrigerator for 48 hours to kill off yeast and then bottle.

I strongly suggest using a hydrometer (or tasting often, if you absolutely can't/won't get one, but a hydrometer is about $10). A sugar-based fermentation could be much farther along than that in four days depending on slight variations in temperature, yeast strain, and so on. Your call, of course. I have a bottle of root beer extract that came with home bottling instructions, and I can't decide if they're funny or scary.

 

[fearwig]

I used online calculators to guess your original gravity (based on weight of 3.7 cups sugar in 3 gal volume) is around 1.065. If you get to 1.040 you'll be around 3.25%, or 1.035 for about 4%.

Unfortunately fridging just puts yeast to sleep, which is only OK if you're going to keep the bottles in the fridge all the time until you want to drink them. Killing them with alcohol would take a total alcohol concentration well over 10% (depending on strain), and then you'd have carbonation problems.

Your best best is to bottle while the yeast is active, then (if you're bottling in glass) also bottle a small plastic soda bottle at the same time, to use for comparison. When that test bottle gets very firm, like a carbonated soda (probably somewhere 12-36 hours, depending), you put all the bottles in a 160-170F water bath to pasteurize them. Let them sit until you think the liquid inside the bottles has reached that temperature, maybe 20-30 minutes. They will not explode from this, and it will kill the yeast for good, and your bottles will be carbonated.

It sounds kind of "mad scientist", but people do this with sweet ciders and other specialty beers all the time. If you don't have a pot big enough for all your bottles on the stove at once, you can rotate them out. I think 20-30 minutes is more than enough to get them up to temp.

Just a warning, though--if you don't pasteurize successfully, or if you wait too long, you will get exploding bottles! Which is very unpleasant. So it's better to be slightly too thorough than not enough. 20 minutes in 170F water really should be plenty. I'm not an expert in this technique, though, so if you want you can also consult people on the cider and soda making forums, they do this a lot.

 

[coramdeo]

A few more questions if I may.

1. Should I put the bottles in while bringing the water up to 170 and then wait 20 minutes or bring the water up to 170 and then put the bottles in for 20 minutes?

2. For the plastic bottle test, should the bottle be of the same size as the glass bottle or not and should it be as full of the brew as the glass bottles?

3. Do you have any recommended soda making forum site?


Thank you for all your help,

Michael

I used online calculators to guess your original gravity (based on weight of 3.7 cups sugar in 3 gal volume) is around 1.065. If you get to 1.040 you'll be around 3.25%, or 1.035 for about 4%.

Unfortunately fridging just puts yeast to sleep, which is only OK if you're going to keep the bottles in the fridge all the time until you want to drink them. Killing them with alcohol would take a total alcohol concentration well over 10% (depending on strain), and then you'd have carbonation problems.

Your best best is to bottle while the yeast is active, then (if you're bottling in glass) also bottle a small plastic soda bottle at the same time, to use for comparison. When that test bottle gets very firm, like a carbonated soda (probably somewhere 12-36 hours, depending), you put all the bottles in a 160-170F water bath to pasteurize them. Let them sit until you think the liquid inside the bottles has reached that temperature, maybe 20-30 minutes. They will not explode from this, and it will kill the yeast for good, and your bottles will be carbonated.

It sounds kind of "mad scientist", but people do this with sweet ciders and other specialty beers all the time. If you don't have a pot big enough for all your bottles on the stove at once, you can rotate them out. I think 20-30 minutes is more than enough to get them up to temp.

Just a warning, though--if you don't pasteurize successfully, or if you wait too long, you will get exploding bottles! Which is very unpleasant. So it's better to be slightly too thorough than not enough. 20 minutes in 170F water really should be plenty. I'm not an expert in this technique, though, so if you want you can also consult people on the cider and soda making forums, they do this a lot.

 

[fearwig]

1) I think 20 once the water is up to temp will be sufficient, but either way should be OK. Usually with pasteurization the idea is just to heat it as little as possible so you don't change the flavors, but with this I don't think that's a huge deal as long as you A) get it high enough (yeast die almost instantly at 170F but the temp inside takes some time to catch up to the temp outside) and B) don't boil the liquid inside the bottles because that would be bad (but that would be a hard mistake to make, I hope).

2) From my understanding it doesn't matter much how big the bottle is, but I'd try to keep the bottle size and total headspace relatively similar (so, make it pretty full). I think either a 20oz or 1L bottle would be fine. You can pasteurize and drink your test bottle too, of course. If you think your test bottle is firm and just about ready, you should go ahead and pasteurize soon, because glass bottle bombs aren't much fun (and neither is a bottle that gushes all over you when you open it!. If you really aren't sure you can go ahead and crack one and taste it to see if you like it how it is. The key is to underestimate rather than overestimate the time, because I just saw a thread where a guy had to run home from work because his wife called and told him all his bottles were exploding.

3) HBT has a soda forum, actually! Pretty neat. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/

 

[coramdeo]

I was browsing through the threads from the link you gave me and I found the following from a moderator name pappy,

He did 190 degrees for 10 minutes..

I just hope I do it right, not change the taste, not have bottle bombs, and not over carbonate before pasteurizing the batch,

Here is the link of pappy's pasteurizing

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

1) I think 20 once the water is up to temp will be sufficient, but either way should be OK. Usually with pasteurization the idea is just to heat it as little as possible so you don't change the flavors, but with this I don't think that's a huge deal as long as you A) get it high enough (yeast die almost instantly at 170F but the temp inside takes some time to catch up to the temp outside) and B) don't boil the liquid inside the bottles because that would be bad (but that would be a hard mistake to make, I hope).

2) From my understanding it doesn't matter much how big the bottle is, but I'd try to keep the bottle size and total headspace relatively similar (so, make it pretty full). I think either a 20oz or 1L bottle would be fine. You can pasteurize and drink your test bottle too, of course. If you think your test bottle is firm and just about ready, you should go ahead and pasteurize soon, because glass bottle bombs aren't much fun (and neither is a bottle that gushes all over you when you open it!. If you really aren't sure you can go ahead and crack one and taste it to see if you like it how it is. The key is to underestimate rather than overestimate the time, because I just saw a thread where a guy had to run home from work because his wife called and told him all his bottles were exploding.

3) HBT has a soda forum, actually! Pretty neat. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/

 

[fearwig]

190 for 10 would be OK too. Here's a pasteurization chart that's helpful to understand the relationship between time and temperature (remembering that this is about the internal temperature of the liquid).

A 5D reduction means for every 100,000 cells, 1 survives.

Now I'd be aiming for something a little longer than what's on the right side of that chart, myself, to play it safe, but I think you can see that a few minutes at even 160 would do the trick just fine, that 170 is a little safer, and 190 safer still (mostly because you have to guess internal temperatures unless you pasteurize an uncapped bottle of water for a control). Again though, be sure not to boil. That would stress the bottles very quickly I think.

Your risk of changing the taste is not very large with a cream soda even if you did 190 for 30 minutes, it's larger with hopped beers, which become more bitter after 180. You'll be fine as long as you don't wait too long before pasteurizing, that's the main risk. Natural carbonation of sweet drinks is harder than carbonating beer, really, but it's not that hard either. I think you'll be just fine if you follow this schedule or the schedule pappy recommends. He is more experienced with sodas than I am, but I would venture to say his schedule is a little more aggressive than it absolutely has to be and is more about foolproofing the process.