"green" beer or bitter batch?

[mandobud16]

Hello all,

I recently brewed an English Brown Ale using washed whitbred yeast. I bottled about 12 days ago, and cracked one open to see how the carbonation process was coming along. The carbonation was fine, but the beer had a very strong bitter/chemical/soapy aftertaste that lingered on the back of the tongue. I did use soap to was these bottles but rinsed them 3 times each with hot water before sanitizing with Star San. Could this be an issue with chlorophenols or could it just be "green" off-flavors? This is my first all-grain batch. However, my LME batch did not have this flavor. (partial boil)? I also have an amber ale in one of the fermenters i brewed as my second all grainer. I took a sample to see if there was a similar flavor and there was definitely the same bitter and sharp aftertaste. Is this just another case of RDWHAHB? Thanks guys

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Hmmmm. If it wasn't for the soapy note I would almost suspect tannins, as from either too fine a crush or getting the grains too hot.

For future reference, don't soap the bottles. Give them a decent rinse after pouring the beer into a glass, stick it in a drying rack, store, and boom your bottle is one bath of star-san away from being ready to take new beer in it!

As you have a similar flavor in the batch that has not touched anything soap related, it would either be process or age.

I would lean towards it being green. How was the clarity? If the one you had was rather murky, chill it down for a day or two, and make sure not to let ANY of the sediment into a glass. Taste, and if it is fine, then you are just getting little grain/yeast/hops bits that will settle out. If it still has the off-taste, then just age them.

I had a porter that tasted awful, hid it away out of shame, found it 4 months later and it was indeed tasty. I suggest cracking open a new one every Friday (or Saturday) night until it is good to go, and make sure you have a back-up beer if that one goes down the drain. Let it age, no harm waiting.

Let us know how it goes! Report back!

 

[mandobud16]

Thanks for the reply! My grains were crushed at my LHBS, so I'm thinking that might not be the issue. It is possible that my mash temp was a bit high. My lab thermometer read 154 for the mash, but it takes about a minute to get an accurate reading from those things. I sparged with water at 175 in 2 ten minute batches. Then I squeezed the **** out of the bag before discarding the grains (BIAB).
The clarity of the beer was pretty clear, but I only left the bottle in the freezer for about 25 minutes or so. So there could have been floaters that I could not see in the brew. I also forgot to use a muslin filter over my siphon while transferring the beer from the fermenter to the bottling bucket, so there are probably more hop/grain particles than there should be. I'm going to throw one in the fridge for a couple of days and see how it tastes. I'll let you know how it goes! Thanks again

 

[RCBIV]

Thanks for the reply! My grains were crushed at my LHBS, so I'm thinking that might not be the issue. It is possible that my mash temp was a bit high. My lab thermometer read 154 for the mash, but it takes about a minute to get an accurate reading from those things. I sparged with water at 175 in 2 ten minute batches. Then I squeezed the **** out of the bag before discarding the grains (BIAB).
The clarity of the beer was pretty clear, but I only left the bottle in the freezer for about 25 minutes or so. So there could have been floaters that I could not see in the brew. I also forgot to use a muslin filter over my siphon while transferring the beer from the fermenter to the bottling bucket, so there are probably more hop/grain particles than there should be. I'm going to throw one in the fridge for a couple of days and see how it tastes. I'll let you know how it goes! Thanks again

I am by no means an expert, but I believe squeezing the **** out of the bag could create tannins, which Yotie suspected could be the problem.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Yeah, RCBIV and I seem to have the same idea. Squeezing the bag (or grains in any manner) is thought to be a good way to extract tannins.

A gentle squeeze, sure. But not a ton of it. I am not experienced in BIAB, but the sparging steps should have been fine enough for getting the sugars out.

Tannins are something that can subside a bit over time, but won't go away completely.

Either way, let the ones in the bottle age for a while, it can be surprising what age can do.

Live and learn, and with that you brew better beer!

 

[mandobud16]

Cool thanks guys!

 

[unionrdr]

I was thinking the 1st one may've had carbonic bite from being carbonated over style. English ordinary bitters are carbed to 1.3 volumes. That's not a lot of carbonation at all,allowing the full malt flavor to come to bare. Too much carbonation,& the resulting carbonic acid will def have a real bite to it.

 

[mistercameron]

I am by no means an expert, but I believe squeezing the **** out of the bag could create tannins, which Yotie suspected could be the problem.

That is an old myth - Squeezing does *not* release tannins. Temperature and pH is what does it.

 

[hamiltont]

That is an old myth - Squeezing does *not* release tannins. Temperature and pH is what does it.

Exactly. I'm leaning mostly towards PH.

mandobud16, Did you adjust your PH or test the mash/sparge to see where they were? Cheers!!!

 

[AgentHubcap]

My first thought was a combo of green beer and squeezing the grain bag.

That is an old myth - Squeezing does *not* release tannins. Temperature and pH is what does it.

I always avoid squeezing, and that is one reason why I've been avoiding BIAB. Any documentation to back up this claim?

 

[Yooper]

IT doesn't sound at all like tannins, but rather some chlorophenols. Is it possible that you used chlorinated water in the brew? That, combined with a higher fermentation temperature (above about 68 degrees) can really make a harsh astringent bitterness that hints of cloves.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Yooper could be right. I am not familiar with Chlorophenols affecting brews, though I use chlorinated water sometimes in my brewing and haven't run into any similar issues.

This may be a place to do experimentation. Do a small batch with your normal water and not squeezing the bag. Do another batch with RO water bought at the store and don't squeeze the bag. See which, if either, has that flavor.

Of course, my job is to develop and run experiments, so that is the first thing I think of as a "reasonable" solution. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Yooper]

Another thing that could be the culprit is highly alkaline water. That's an issue I've had. My stouts and dark beers are kick-ass great. My kolsch was harsh and bitter. Then I had a water test done and the light bulb went off for me. My lightest beers are now excellent, since I found out how to deal with my water.

If you think it could be water, one thing to do would be to make one batch with all RO (reverse osmosis) water from the "water machine" at the grocery store. Add 1 teaspoon of Calcium Chloride to the water and use it right from the bottle. If that fixes that harsh astringency, then you know it's the water.

 

[mandobud16]

Hamiltont- I did not take the ph.

Yooper- I used the same water I did with my lame batch, although 7 gal was boiled in the all grain while only 3 gal was boiled in the extract batch which might have led to more chlorophenols being formed?

 

[mandobud16]

And fern temp was always around 65. Did not exceed 68

 

[mandobud16]

guys just tried a bottle i chilled for a day in the fridge. Poured all but the last inch in the pint glass and boom! Good beer! My ******* poured some of that sediment into the glass yesterday which gave it a nasty taste. All grain seems to have more sediment on the bottom? Oh well all is good here. I appreciate eveyone's help! It has never felt so good to realize a mistake!

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Glad it turned out to be good and a simple answer/fix!

All grain has more stuff to potentially get into the final beer, especially if there is some fine husks that get through into the bottling steps. Also, hops and yeast just settle out over time and will taste a bit off earlier on. Over time it will settle down, you will see more sediment on the bottom and be able to get a little more out of the bottles.

I always do a gentle pour and watch the stream, once it starts to get a hint of murk to it I stop pouring.

Again, glad it turned out to be good!

 

[HopHeadGrady]

It's amazing how much beer taste can change over a long conditioning period. I popped the top on a mash extract ale recipe I had a week and a half ago and it was bitter and tasted a bit over hopped with saaz. It was 7 days in the bottle after a 14 day fermentation. Tasted like a green banana if that makes any sense. The head was just bubbles, no foam etc. I could barely get the one bottle down.

Fast forward to today, it's smooth, nicely carbed with a foamy head. What they say about protien rest appears to actually be true... It really does appear to help with the head when comparing to a brew that was just a one step.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

This is why you should let it sit in the fermenter for 3 weeks at least, even if fermentation is done well before then. Also this is why you should leave it in the bottle for another 3 weeks, even if it is carbed. You get a much better product.

 

[mandobud16]

Im going to wait until my next batch is very clear until I bottle. Then 3 week bottle condition. I'm beginning to realize how important patience is with these things, although its tough for us noobs! Ha

 

[unionrdr]

Once you learn how long the various steps really take to goet good,patience is def easier to learn.