Grain question

[hallucinaut]

I'm about to start my first all grain brew. I have done 2 extract brews, and am switching primarily to save a bit of money.

I am going to be brewing a deschutes red chair nwpa clone, and I am using this recipe:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: WLP005
Yeast Starter: Yes
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.012
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 days @ 62*F
Tasting Notes: Mouthfeel, bitterness, and color spot on. My verison had a little more hop aroma.

10lbs 2 row
1lb Munich
1lb Pilsner
1lb Crystal 60L
0.5lb Carapils
0.5lb Carastan

Mash @ 155*F

1.5oz Centennial (9.1%AA) @ 60
1.5oz Centennial (9.1%AA) @ 15
2oz Cascade @ 0

OG 1.060
FG 1.012

WLP005 with a starter

Created by AZ_IPA

I can find big (50lb) bags of 2 row grain on craigslist for really cheap....

My questions are this: Can I substitute the other grains used in the recipe for 2 row? If I use the same weight of grain, except use all 2 row, what will this do to the beer? Will it taste different or will the abv% be less???


Also, another question, I would like the abv to be higher, maybe 7-7.5% (the abv calculator I am using says his brew is 6.3%). Is it possible to do this without changing the taste too much? If I added more grain and hops, will the abv be higher and will the brew still taste pretty similar?



Thanks for any help/advice, HBT community!

 

[aryoung1980]

If you only use 2-row you will no longer have a red. You'd likely get a very light colored pale ale. It will definitely change the taste and, more than likely, the mouthfeel. You could up the ABV by increasing your base malt or, if you like drier beers, add sugar.

 

[CBMbrewer]

If you want that beer, stick to the recipe. Those grains that are not 2-row are "specialty grains" or "character grains" and are what will give you the color and a lot of the flavor characteristic of the style. You can increase the gravity by upping the amount of 2-row but if I were you I would stick with the recipe.

 

[hallucinaut]

Ok, thanks for quick replies.

I will use the specialty grains, then. Wasn't quite sure what the point was, but now I know.

I am going to up the OG by adding a bit more 2 row, I'm thinking 1lb more and I also want 1 oz more of centennial @ 60. Would that be a good amount to add if I just want to increase the abv to 7%?

I'm on beersmith and I've typed in the original recipe, it says the abv should turn out to be 7.3%, but he only got 6.3%.... Why is that?

 

[forstmeister]

The efficiency you have in beersmith may be higher than his efficiency. Check that first

 

[hallucinaut]

efficiency?

How exactly do I know my efficiency?

And what exactly does efficiency mean in brewing?

Also, this is my first all grain brew, would you be able to tell me how much water I should use in my initial mash and my wort? Should I just use 5 gallons in the mash, then add water to my boil, and possibly more water after the boil to get to 5 gallons?

 

[hallucinaut]

disregard my last question, beersmith says how much water I should use.

I'm thinking of doing a medium body, double infusion mash, does this sound like a good idea?

I want more efficiency in the mash, get all those sugars out, so I was thinking a double infusion would be good/possibility.

 

[hallucinaut]

nobody has any thoughts on the double infusion?

 

[meltroha]

Double infusion is usually not worth the trouble. Also, of you have no way of getting specialty grains, you can roast two row yourself. There are forums here about it, and you could always google it.

 

[forstmeister]

I always do a single infusion batch sparge. Single, medium, and full body will depend on the style. Brewing a cream ale? Light body. Brewing a oatmeal stout? Full body. Mash temp is the big variable in body (there are grains you can add to assist too).

 

[billl]

I think you need to slow down a bit and do some reading. Enthusiasm is great, but if you are looking to save money, it is better to answer those questions with a book/forum vs a bunch of "experimental" batches of beer.

And I would keep it very simple for your first batches. ie single infusion batch sparge. A double infusion just gives you twice as many ways to screw up at this point. Once you've got the process down, you can start experimenting with different mash schedules to see how they impact the final product.

"I want more efficiency in the mash, get all those sugars out, so I was thinking a double infusion would be good/possibility."

You probably need to adjust your expectations here, at least to start. You are probably going to make all the same little mistakes that everyone else does their first batch. Those little mistakes all add up to produce pretty mediocre efficiency. As you work out the kinks in your process, that generally rises and become more consistent. It wouldn't be much of a hobby/craft if you didn't need to practice to get good at it, would it?

 

[hallucinaut]

I got ya, I'll keep it simple and do a single infusion batch sparge and follow the recipe given, no additions...


I do have one last question before I start, though....


The creator of this recipe says that he mashed at 155*, but says in order to be more like red chair, he recommends a higher mash. So I want to mash at 160* because of his advice.

How do I change this in beer smith? I chose a medium body, single infusion, batch sparge and the temp it gives me is 152*. Do I need to choose a full body single infusion batch sparge or is there a way to edit the exact temperature I am looking to mash at?

Thanks for the help

 

[hallucinaut]

And also, on beersmith it says my estimated abv is 6.9% but my actually abv is 4.7%....

What am I doing wrong here? The brew should be higher than 4.7%..

 

[GrogNerd]

efficiency is how much of the potential sugars you extract from the grains during your mash.

you'll see the numbers up at the top of the recipe and titled Tot Efficiency & Est. Mash Eff.

I would recommend that you leave the numbers as they are for now, until you get a better understanding of what's going on and, after a few batches under your belt, you can tweak your equipment profile.

to figure out your mash efficiency, get a good measurement of your volume and gravity PRE-BOIL. go to the MASH button and on the right, under Volume & Gravity in Boiler, enter your Measured Volume & Gravity

BAM! your mash efficiency

if you do want to change your settings - for HIGHER mash temp, either go with FULL body or, under Mash Profile, double-click on SACCHARIFICATION and enter your temp under STEP TEMPERATURE

 

[billl]

"The creator of this recipe says that he mashed at 155*, but says in order to be more like red chair, he recommends a higher mash. So I want to mash at 160* because of his advice. "

The generic starting point is 152. That is where I would start if I was you. And f rankly, don't be surprised if you miss that temp and end up scrambling. Just keep some ice and boiling water on hand to adjust as you go.

"And also, on beersmith it says my estimated abv is 6.9% but my actually abv is 4.7%"

You don't have an actual ABV yet. You haven't brewed! The program allows you to enter your actual stats - OG and FG to determine you actual ABV, but you need to brew and measure first before entering those.

 

[hallucinaut]

Ok, thanks, I've got my mash temp adjusted to 160* and I'm about ready to start this.

Seriously last question now,

when I bought my kit, it included a 20qt boil kettle... which is too low of a volume for all the water that I need to use with my mash... I want to avoid buying a bigger boil kettle for a couple weeks because they are pretty spendy.

Beer smith says my initial mash should use 17.5qt of water, then my 2 step sparge will use around 4 gallons of water total... can I do the mash/sparge, add 5 gallons to my boil kettle and set aside the additional mash water until it boils down, then just add more mash water while the rest of the water boils down, or do I NEED to buy a bigger kettle before doing this?

 

[forstmeister]

You can do a batch smaller than 5 gallons with that pot. Maybe 2.5-3 gallons at most. To brew a 5 gallon batch you need at least a 8 gallon pot, preferably 10 gallons or more.

 

[hallucinaut]

Damn, this kit has really turned out to be a disappointment.

Ok I will be waiting until I get my hands on an 8 gal + kettle.

Thanks for the all help, everybody.

 

[glugglug]

If you want more alcohol, use your software and increase your grains equally. In other words it will say something like 70% 2 row, 10% crystal, 10% something else all totaling 100%. Note those percentages on the original recipe and use the same percentages for a bigger beer. Do the same with the hops to get the same IBUs. Brew the beer, take good notes. When your done, you'll be able to calculate your efficiency. After a few batches you'll have an even better idea of what that efficiency is. Until then, you may be low or high or dead on in efficiency.

Also, keep it simple with a single infusion. Have fun! All grain is a fun process. Hopefully it'll go smoothly, if it doesn't, that's not unusual, and we all enjoy reading about it.

Cheers!

 

[hallucinaut]

would it be at all possible to have 2 seperate kettles boiling at the same time?

I have a 20 qt and a 16 qt.... The cheapest 32qt kettle I can find nearby is over $100 so that won't be an option at least for a month or so.

 

[GrogNerd]

If you want more alcohol, use your software and increase your grains equally. In other words it will say something like 70% 2 row, 10% crystal, 10% something else all totaling 100%. Note those percentages on the original recipe and use the same percentages for a bigger beer. Do the same with the hops to get the same IBUs. Brew the beer, take good notes. When your done, you'll be able to calculate your efficiency. After a few batches you'll have an even better idea of what that efficiency is. Until then, you may be low or high or dead on in efficiency.

Also, keep it simple with a single infusion. Have fun! All grain is a fun process. Hopefully it'll go smoothly, if it doesn't, that's not unusual, and we all enjoy reading about it.

Cheers!

I would recommend making the BITTERNESS RATIO (IBU divided by the decimal part of the gravity) the same, rather than the IBU alone. keeps the malt/hops balance the same while scaling

would it be at all possible to have 2 seperate kettles boiling at the same time?

I have a 20 qt and a 16 qt.... The cheapest 32qt kettle I can find nearby is over $100 so that won't be an option at least for a month or so.

should be able to find an aluminum kettle for cheaper than that

 

[hallucinaut]

I did just find a turkey fryer at walmart with a 30qt kettle for $45. The restaurant supply store wants $110 for a 36 qt aluminum kettle, that is just ridiculous.


I could possibly buy that turkey fryer in the next few days. If I can't boil in two separate pots then I'll just wait until I can get the turkey fryer.

Is a 2-pot boil possible? I'd just cool both of them separately, then combine into the same fermenter, but if it isn't recommended I will just wait to do this brew.

 

[GrogNerd]

I have that same turkey fryer, same kettle. it's a tight fight, I end up spraying water on the hot break like a madman to avoid a boil over, but it works

last couple brews I've done a 90 minute boil (pilsner malt) and by the time the 60 minute hops addition rolls around, enough has boiled off I don't have a problem then.

 

[hallucinaut]

If I just cut my brew down to 3 gallons, is there a way to have beersmith change my recipe automatically?

 

[hallucinaut]

Nevermind, I found the scale recipe button.

I'm just gonna do that batch at 3 gallons today, it should also be a good to do my first all grain in a smaller batch anyway, just incase I screw up, I'll lose less.

Thanks for the help

 

[GrogNerd]

with the recipe open, the RIBBON should have a SCALE RECIPE button

 

[Yooper]

would it be at all possible to have 2 seperate kettles boiling at the same time?

I have a 20 qt and a 16 qt.... The cheapest 32qt kettle I can find nearby is over $100 so that won't be an option at least for a month or so.

I did that for a long time, on my stove top. I only had a 30 quart pot, which is really too small, so I boiled 5 gallons in the 30 quart port and 3 gallons in the smaller pot, and then combined the wort after chilling.

That seems like a lot- 8 gallons of wort! But the boil off is doubled, by using two pots. Instead of boiling of a typical 1.5 gallons in the boil, I boiled 1.5 gallons of in each pot.

Don't get a 32 quart kettle if you can help it. You want something bigger, unless you like boil overs and worrying about it! Get a 36 quart minimum, but 40 quarts is better.

 

[GrogNerd]

can't argue with Yooper

here's a 40qt for $40

 

[avm221]

I would save your money and save for a keggal 15.5 gal you can boil 10 gal batches

 

[hallucinaut]

I will be getting a bigger kettle soon, for now I am just going to do a couple different 3 gallon batches.

Went to the brew store and got my ingredients for a 3 gallon scaled down version of this recipe.

That 15.5 gallon keggal looks pretty sweet, I may just have to save up for that one.

 

[avm221]

I just got the keggal I chose to get equipment that can brew 10gal batches so I didn't need to buy more stuff later.

 

[texcan2000]

On amazon I bought a Winware 40 quart aluminum stockpot for just under 40 dollars. I am very happy with it. It is thick aluminum, but just so you know I had to purchase a propane burner also as my glass stovetop couldn't get the volume up to boil when I was seasoning it.

 

[avm221]

Yes you will have to take it out side some time, I started brew outside and my wife loves it no boil overs in the kitchen. No more mess.

 

[ScottG58]

I would not mash at 160. Alpha amylase is the enzyme that converts starches to complex sugars that are not as fermentable. Alpha amylase is most active at between 154 to 167 f.

Beta amylase is the enzyme that converts starch to simpler more fermentable sugars. Beta amylase is most active between 130 to 150 f.

Whoever have you the advice to mash this one at 152 and keep some cold water and some boiling water on hand was giving you good advice.

 

[hallucinaut]

I mashed at 155*, after talking to original recipe creator, he said he originally mashed at 152* but would recommend a 155* mash instead. I guess I read his original post wrong which is why I was considering 160*.

I should have measured my mash and sparge water out exactly. Instead I kind of winged it and ended up over the volume I was going for. My pre boil volume was supposed to be 4.4gal but I ended up with slightly over 5 gallons and had to use another pot to boil down some of the wort. Because of my mistake, I ended up boiling for a little over 120 mins to get down to 3 gallons.

Oh well, hopefully it turns out fine. I'm sure I'll drink it anyway

It is pretty aggressively fermenting, I went with s-04 yeast instead of WLP005 because since I was using less yeast than a full packet, I thought dry yeast would be better because I could save my leftovers. I have a good amount of krausen, so that's a plus.

I should have waited on this brew, though, silly me. I work in a small bistro that has a 12-13 gallon kettle and much bigger burners. Next time I'm just going to go in on a day the place is closed and brew there... if they let me. I'm sure they will at least let me use their kettle so I'll probably do either a 7.5-10 gallon brew my next run. That should be fun, gonna use a DFH 90 minute IPA clone recipe on that one, unless I can find a tricerahops clone.

Thanks again for the help, everybody