Grafting from old trees?

[jmartie13]

I have a very old crab apple tree that produces great cider apples, unfortunately I don't think it's going to last much longer. The last couple years they've had some pretty healthy looking shoots around the bottom. I was thinking I could find some young wild trees and dig them up, graft the shoots from the crab apple..? Or, maybe try and find some root stock at a local orchard. I just started researching this, but I thought I'd see if anyone had any experience with this!

Cheers!

 

[quijiba]

I too am very interested in this, mostly for grafting hops/cherry trees

 

[gregbathurst]

Grafting in pretty easy with a bit of experience. I raise my own seedlings for rootstocks, sometimes I dig up little seedlings from the orchard. You just need some stems for the scions that match the thickness of your rootstocks where you will be grafting. I tape my grafts with plumbers thread tape, it is soft and strong and easy to buy. Once you have done the grafting plant the tree in a pot,keep it well watered and don't fiddle with it, just leave it alone to see if it shoots. It is easy enough to do 5 or 10 grafts so you can be sure one will take, you may even get extra trees.

 

[WVMJ]

If your crabapple was grafted those shoots coming up from the bottom could be from the rootstock and when you grow them it wont be your crabapple. Is the crabapple tree still alive? You can take even small twigs to graft, cut them now and put in a plastic bag in the refrigerator and immediately order some rootstocks to graft onto, time is running out very fast, just get it grafted onto any rootstock you can find to preserve it. Also do some pruning cuts that would encourage new limb growth that might give you some good buds to graft with at the end of the summer with chip budding. None of this is hard to do and sounds like you are running out of time or is the top of your tree already dead?

 

[jmartie13]

If your crabapple was grafted those shoots coming up from the bottom could be from the rootstock and when you grow them it wont be your crabapple. Is the crabapple tree still alive? You can take even small twigs to graft, cut them now and put in a plastic bag in the refrigerator and immediately order some rootstocks to graft onto, time is running out very fast, just get it grafted onto any rootstock you can find to preserve it. Also do some pruning cuts that would encourage new limb growth that might give you some good buds to graft with at the end of the summer with chip budding. None of this is hard to do and sounds like you are running out of time or is the top of your tree already dead?

Thanks for the info!

I did read about the possibility of rootstock around the base...the tree is over 100 years old from what I understand. I assume they still grafted trees back than, so it's likely those shoots are no good. There are a couple spots on the top with some live twigs....SO, I can cut any live twigs, branches, ect. to graft onto rootstock? I did save some of the shoots around the bottom a couple weeks ago, I guess ill have to climb it this afternoon and try and get some. I lost about 50% it last year....I'm worried it'll be gone before next winter.

Cheers.

 

[MindenMan]

I suggest you put on your climbing boots as you likely have no idea what the root stock of that particular tree is. I would think after all this time, anything on (off of) the top would be a solid grafting choice.

 

[gregbathurst]

I think the crabapple probably is the rootstock. Anything that old is probably unlikely to have rootstock suckers, but it is better to take scions from where you are sure you have the right tree.

 

[WVMJ]

You will read that pencil thick scions are best, but on an old tree like that it probably hard to find year old scions that thick, if that is the case still take the thinner ones and try to graft some dwarf rootstocks just to preserve it. Good luck.

 

[jmartie13]

You will read that pencil thick scions are best, but on an old tree like that it probably hard to find year old scions that thick, if that is the case still take the thinner ones and try to graft some dwarf rootstocks just to preserve it. Good luck.

I just realized this! I clipped 30 or so year old shoots, they are all 1/8" or smaller.....I'm seeing rootstock available on a website called "Grandpas Orchard" but they don't say anything about the size? is pencil thick / 1/4" standard rootstock size, and dwarf will be more towards 1/8"?

I appreciate the help, Joe.

 

[Scrumpy!]

I have purchased root stock from Grandpa's and found them very helpful. If you tell them the diameter of your scions, they will try to send you root stock of similar diameter. Last year's water sprouts from the top of your tree will be the most vigorous and most likely to not only graft well but grow explosively for the first few years. Don't take shoots that sprout from the base of the tree. They are the root stock and will not produce the same variety of apple as their parent tree does.

The term dwarf, semi-dwarf, and standard refer to the ultimate size of the tree, not the diameter of the root stock. Choose your root stock variety carefully. Scions grafted to standard root stock take many years to produce fruit and the tree can easily grow to 30 or 40 ft in time. Dwarf trees have weak, shallow roots but mature quickly and can be densely planted which results in the maximum production you can get per area. Nearly all of them would need support of some kind. Semi-dwarf root stock has some of the advantages and disadvantages of the other two.

It is a complicated decision which type to use and you should be well read about the subject before planning your orchard. An orchard is a long term project and mistakes made in the first year might only be revealed several years later.

 

[jmartie13]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1490094126.395971.jpg

This is what I came up with for shoots from the tree, I think it's the best I can do. I can see some better ones on top....but the tree is at least 25-30ft tall and I can't tell where all the dead wood is hiding. I'm not trying to plan an orchard at this point, just trying to save a tree that means a lot to my mother in-law. I'm hoping to order some rootstock today, I also have a lot of wild apple trees around the house, I'm thinking of trying some cleft or bark grafting too!

Thanks for the info!

 

[Scrumpy!]

Good looking scions. You have a large variation in diameters so no matter what they send you for root stock, you have it covered. Be sure to keep them wrapped and refrigerated until you are ready to graft them.

I have had good success using parafilm and grafting wax. Sharp, clean cutting tools are essential for successful grafts. Support your grafted trees by binding the root stock and scion to a splint that is pushed into the soil beside the young tree (I use bamboo). Birds, other critters, a careless touch, or the wind can undo your tender graft in a moment even after it begins to heal. It won't be ready to stand without a splint until the second year and even then, remember it only has one growth ring and the bark holding it together.

Buy a plastic tree spiral or build a cylinder of fine hardware cloth 4" in diameter and a foot long to slip over the splint and tree to protect the young tree from bark gnawing rodents over the the winter. Sink it into the soil an inch or two but not enough to interfere with the new horizontal roots your root stock will send out.

Beware of apple borers. They prey on young trees when the bark on the trunk is thin and vulnerable. There are lots of ways to prevent their damage.

Now is the time to decide what sort of architecture you want your tree to have. I use a three or four tier system, 6-9 horizontal branches (scaffolds) at 3-4 ft on semi-dwarf root stock, 24" without branches then another 5-6 branches, 24" without branches then 3-4 branches, another 24" without branches then a crown of 2-3 branches. This will give you the highest yield, an important consideration for a dwarf or semi-dwarf tree. Your scaffolds should be at nearly right angles to the trunk.

Or, you can train the branches to form a "goblet" shape. Less production but easier to do.

This is as much fun as making cider but not as fun as drinking it.

 

[jmartie13]

It looks like the works just begun! It's been interesting learning/talking to people in the apple business the last couple weeks.

I ended up ordering a bundle of Budagovsky 118 Clonal rootstock (80-85% standard). It sounds like they're all in the 1/4" range, so I should have at least 10 or so solid matching scions. I did notice there's a method of whip and tongue grafting where you can graft smaller scions onto larger rootstock.....I may try this with some of the others.

I chose the Bud 118 stock because of it's potential for a size similar to the parent tree, it's vigor, and it's success in my area. I spoke with a nursery that has had a lot of success with it. Though according to my local extension it's a very vigorous rootstock and it usually only recommended for spur strains of apple, or weak soil conditions. I don't know the variety of tree I'm working with for my scions, so it may end up being an interesting experiment.

Tree architecture? I knew about pruning...I guess I have more reading to do!

Cheers!

 

[WVMJ]

I think the grading is kind of like where most people graft for thickness, so there can be a thin part on top and lower its thicker. Since your first priority seems to save this tree, graft some up high trying to match up diameters better just to keep it alive, and later when it takes off you can also of course clip off scions from this new one.

 

[jmartie13]

Well, I was able to bench graft 17 scions onto the rootstock I ordered. I read somewhere that it was good to keep them at room temp for a few days after grafting to possibly speed up the union (?). Anyways, they're in a plastic bag with some damp wood shavings around the roots, I just went to check and make sure they were still damp and I noticed a few of the scions buds are already breaking.....So, I popped them down in the basement where it's much cooler. Now I'm wondering if I should pot some of them? At least the ones that are breaking maybe? Doesn't seem like a good idea to put breaking buds into 45-50F temps...any input would be appreciated!

Cheers.

 

[Scrumpy!]

Plant them in your garden if you have one. The buds will slow down but that is not a problem. You could have a problem if you have a serious cold snap. If your forecast is for freezing temps, put a plastic bucket over each tree overnight. If they are too tall for buckets, go to FedEx and grab their triangular shipping tubes for maps and use those. Be sure to secure them to a stake so they don't blow over.

 

[globell]

Size of the rootstock may depend on the age of the rootstock. I've seen from 1/8-3/4" r/s.

Look up whip and tongue and cleft grafting. They are easiest for new grafters. Practice practice on scrap wood that's apple or the like (don't use stone fruits - it just feels and acts differently than apple). Hit you tube. I'm currently grafting up a mini orchard for us. About 50-70 apples on dwarfing stock.

 

[globell]

apple begins to heal at 10C which is about 50F. Takes some time for the juices to start to flow into the scions and just keeping the unions sealed is important. also seal ends on scions.
The buds will start to look like they are growing even if they are cut from the tree IF they are moist and not drying out. Normally you know that the union is doing well after you have about 1/4" growth from the buds (green growth). I've had some grafted bud out then die out so it's not always a rule but it's normally the case.

Good luck! Hope it all works out - and careful grafting is addictive just like brewing!

Any idea of the variety of crab?

 

[jmartie13]

I have lots of garden space! But, they're still covered in snow....It's been raining the last couple days and we're starting to see larger patches of bare ground (exciting stuff). My guess is two weeks before I might be able to plant some outside. I have a couple plum trees being shipped to me through my local nursery and they said April 15th was the best time to ship for this area. Maybe I grafted too soon...

I do not know what variety of crab. We live in an old farmhouse originally built somewhere around 1810-1820. When the owners before us bought and renovated in the 1950's there was an orchard in the backyard. They cleared almost all of it for yard space but kept this crab because of it's size and beauty. My mother in-law grew up with the tree and likes it very much, so I'm attempting to "replace" it and add a few more to our area! The pictures I attached were from the last good crop a couple years ago. Since then it's been shedding large branches, it's not looking good.

Cheers.

 

[Scrumpy!]

If the ground is too cold or buried in snow to work, put them in buckets of compost. You should be able to put at least five in each 5 gal bucket. Moisten the compost then put them outside in a shady area sheltered from the wind. They need to be cold so they don't start developing before you can get them in the ground. The roots need to stay moist. Be sure they are well splinted because it is easy to disturb your new graft and generally impossible to fix it. If you get even a 20% success rate, you will probably accomplish your goal of preserving this variety.

BTW, this may not be a crab apple or at least not a commercial one. It could be an apple grown from a seed (seedling) or a known variety that is producing stunted apples because it has gone "wild" due to poor conditions and care. The bottom picture suggests it is competing with larger trees around it and the fruiting wood is scattered at random within the tree. If you thin the fruit in late spring or early summer, you might coax some larger and sweeter apples out of that tree. This can be done by hand (old way) or by spraying the tree with a chemical. You should consult a release from almost any of the ag extension agencies in apple growing states to get the best advice for pruning next Winter. Your mother in laws favorite tree might just outlast all of us.

 

[jmartie13]

Interesting, I never thought that it could be a stunted apple. These apples turn almost golden with red hues in the fall, they make great apple jam, and I also put them in with my cider. It would be cool if they end up being a bigger/sweeter apple. The first time I saw the tree in the spring 10 years ago it was almost blinding how white it was with blossoms. It's on the north side of our yard and it gets full sun, there are some larger sugar maples behind it, but they don't compete. Those pictures were from 2015, since then most of it has fallen.

I was able to get the 17 grafted trees in one of the vegetable gardens last weekend, I really hope I get a couple to see what they end up being. If not, hopefully I can try again next year. The conversation on HBT has been very helpful, hopefully I can post some pictures of some young trees in a couple weeks!

Cheers.

 

[jmartie13]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1493395703.997629.jpg

 

[Scrumpy!]

Looking good!!!! Since you have so many, put the most vigorous one(s) in your orchard next year and give the rest away. It is really satisfying when you do this tree surgery and it works.

I would find a straight support like a length of bamboo to stick in the ground beside it and carefully bind them together for support. Your graft will be weak until at least the end of the growing season and it is easy to lose a tree like this to wind or a bird using it for a perch. I like to put a 4-5" cylinder of hardware cloth that is 12" high on now to protect it from bark loving rodent nibblers when it is covered by snow. If you wait too long to do this, you can't just drop it on because of the leaves and new branches that develop over the summer. It is hard to stitch the edges of the hardware cloth together while it is surrounding the tree which is what you would have to do in Fall. Much easier to make them in your shop now and just drop them over these little guys before the grow very much.

It looks like you used electrical tape to cover the graft. This can be fatal if a fungal infection sets in due to low oxygen. Fresh air or parafilm is better because the growing scab can breath. Now that the tape is on, I would not try to remove it because you stand a good chance of breaking your new scab but in Fall, you should use a single edge razor blade to carefully remove it.

 

[Kent88]

Sub'd. I am also curious about this. I just planted a honeycrisp tree and my wife really wanted a transparent apple tree like the one at her sister's. I'd like to try grafting a branch of the transparent tree onto the honeycrisp in a year or two.

All I've found so far is some information on the University of Minnesota website. Helpful, but I'd like some more info.

 

[Scrumpy!]

You should be able to do this. Some people have grafted multiple varieties to the same tree just for fun. One branch on your tree isn't going to give you many apples but it sounds like that is not the point for you.

It can take more than one try. I have a dwarf gravenstein in my yard that rarely produces any more than a few apples and a northern spy that is ready to fall over. I top worked the gravenstein to preserve the spy instead of waiting for my spy single grafts to grow large enough to produce for my cider.

Northern Spy is notoriously difficult to graft or top work as I learned after I had tried both. Some varieties are just stubborn but then so am I so I kept at it. Out of a dozen cleft grafts last year, only one took and it only budded in its second season! Early this Spring, I tried again and it looks like I am having greater success. When top working, timing seems to be everything. Last year I did it early and had very poor success. This year, I waited until the gravenstein was at greentip before I did my cleft grafts and it looks like most are viable.

https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

Do a search using the terms "top work apple tree" and you will find more information about how to do this. You will need to cut scions from your donor tree next winter and lop off an appropriately sized branch from the tree you want to graft to when it is at the right stage of development in Spring.

The alternative is to bud graft donor buds onto your target tree in late summer. Use the search terms "bud graft apples" to see how this simpler technique is done.

Good luck with this.

 

[globell]

I have about 25 varieties on one tree. Just for fun mostly. Well....mainly to try the apples and then buy it create a tree of that variety. Then I found Apple fest. Lot easier to try apples there than waiting years!

I'm near 100% with rhind it bark grafting. As long as it's done at the right time of year when the batknis slipping and it's secured well enough...you should be good.

If it's been dry, ensure the tree has had a couple days of good watering. It'll help the bark to 'slip'

 

[globell]

If you bud graft, don't do so on older wood with thick bark. It's the only grafting (technically budding) that hasn't taken. Generally you'll have better success with newer wood.

Grafting to a watershoot is great!

 

[dmf38]

Here's one mail-order supplier of rootstock. You might have to call the people to find out which type of rootstock would be appropriate.

http://www.southmeadowfruitgardens.com/FruitTreeOrder.html

 

[jmartie13]

Well, I ended up 19 trees that are growing strong!, Some I grafted very high on the rootstock because my scion size was a little small. I'm thinking I'll take the best, lowest grafted 8-10 and plant them out / give away for gifts. The others I'm thinking I'll cut off and use for grafting something else next spring. Anyone know or have an opinion when you should trim back the shoots? some have two shoots that are 18-24" long...my gut says to leave them this year and prune them in the spring? Some trees have 4, some 3, some 2. Started thinking about them today because I'm starting a cider! cheers.