Going electric and at a loss

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Spinout

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I'd like to stop propane cooker brewing and go electric. But...the more I read on here, the more I realize I know nothing. Getting a heating element installed into my keggle is straightforward enough, but it's all the stuff between it and the wall outlet that losses me. Are there systems a guy can buy, plug it into the wall and plug your heating element into it.....and that's about it?
I read a little about the brew boss, seems fairly simple....what about others?
Right now I'm using a keggle, 30qt HLT, and 5 gallon cooler/MLT. I wouldn't complain about going to biab but also wouldn't mind having a Herms /rims system either. I also have a 50amp receptacle in the shop for power. What systems should I be looking at?
Iknow it seems like a very broad question, but all the threads about control panel builds makes me just want to buy a Pre assembled kit that just needs plugged into the wall.
 
There are definitely plug and play.I built mine.Before starting the project I had not a single clue where to start.I never heard of a PID a SSR and have zero electrical experience..It took me about a month of reading and endless questions before I was ready to start..It really is not difficult at all and an enjoyable project.IF I had to do it again I could build the entire system in a day.Dont get scared off.Its a very doable DIY project.

20 gallon,BIAB 220v 5500w
 
Is that shop power GFCI? If not you would want to incorporate that somehow....because you know water/wort+wet hands+metal pots+electricity can equal bad things. You'll want to have that regardless of which route you choose (DIY or premade).

It seems daunting at first, but there are a ton of resources out there on how to build your own panel, and then you can customize it from the beginning and save a bunch of money. Good luck! :mug:
 
GrogNerd said:
http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/BIAB-Electric-System-LT-120V-269p4652.htm

there are other systems (bigger, 240V) available
Click to expand...

True. There's a lot of options out there for premade, and they're all expensive.
Have you checked out the Electric Brewery?
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1 (make your own)
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel (buy from them)
Great site, tells you how to build your own, or buy from them.

I personally decided to make my own because they are so expensive to buy and there is a lot of information out there. I was completely confused at first (still am at times), but it's been totally worth it and now I fully understand how my equipment works. These forums are great and full of people that know what they're talking about. You'll probably find my own flood of threads in trying to figure it all out.

If you go DIY and want to stay below 30A, this is a good instruction. It's what I used at first...
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-Brewery-Control-Panel-on-the-Cheap/?ALLSTEPS
 
It's all going to depend on what you want to do and what you think you'll want in the future. If you have ever thought about larger batches or any type of automation look at building at that level because you don't want to have rebuild it.

You can go as simple as a heat stick all the way to purchasing a 50a Electric Brewery control box or even further still the Brew-Magic. I would spend sometime researching and trying to figure out exactly what you want then we can help you figure out how to get there.

I personally went with the Kal clone and build it off theelectricbrewery.com instructions. It took about a year of research, saving up money and piecing it together but I've done about a dozen great brews with it.

Good Luck!
 
I'd have to go with the HGB setup.

the least expensive of the EB setups is $1500, which does not include the $77 power cord, nor does it include wiring for 240V

at $700 for 120V, 5 gallon, High Gravity is the easiest, least expensive, highest quality option
 
GrogNerd said:
I'd have to go with the HGB setup.

the least expensive of the EB setups is $1500, which does not include the $77 power cord, nor does it include wiring for 240V

at $700 for 120V, 5 gallon, High Gravity is the easiest, least expensive, highest quality option
Click to expand...

I'd say that the Hosehead box for $440 for 240V is the least expensive. Although using a Web interface may be daunting for some. If your the least bit computer savvy its probably the cheapest/best option.

But back to OP's question 50A wont work unless its GFCI, and even then you need to have your breaker properly sized for your load. If your only doing one element at a time you should be using a 30A GFCI Circuit. Otherwise by the time your 50A GFCI triggers you would be melting all the wires and electronics in your 30A box.
 
thanks for the heads up on the Hosehead, I'm looking into that.

thanks to YOU, I built my own BrewPi, YOU KNOW I'm not afraid of a little electronics DIY with a web interface

the downside to the Hosehead is it is just the controller. add $140 for the brewpot + basket, another $120 for the Chugger and $150 for the BoilCoil and you're in the same neighborhood as the High Gravity, which includes all that plus hose connections

I did link the wrong system tho, with the chugger pump, it's going to cost you $899. same price range as the Hosehead plus the remaining stuff I listed

but, like the BrewPi, Hosehead has the added I-can-do-it-from-my-smartphone cool factor
 
FuzzeWuzze said:
But back to OP's question 50A wont work unless its GFCI, and even then you need to have your breaker properly sized for your load.
Click to expand...
Sure it would. You might well say it is inadvisable to operate in an environment like a brewery but there is no need for GFCI other than to provide protection from low level leakage (i.e. through the brewer).

FuzzeWuzze said:
If your only doing one element at a time you should be using a 30A GFCI Circuit. Otherwise by the time your 50A GFCI triggers you would be melting all the wires and electronics in your 30A box.
Click to expand...

The function of a breaker is to protect the wiring downstream of the breaker. If a 50 Amp breaker is installed in a panel you must use #8 or larger wire from the panel to the receptacle. It is perfectly acceptable to plug a 30 Amp device into this receptacle. If it faults and draws 50 Amps then the breaker at the panel will not trip nor should it. It is designed to trip when there is danger of the wire to the receptacle over heating.

If you want to protect the 30 A device from faults then the device itself should be equipped with a protective breaker or fuse.
 
GrogNerd said:
thanks for the heads up on the Hosehead, I'm looking into that.

thanks to YOU, I built my own BrewPi, YOU KNOW I'm not afraid of a little electronics DIY with a web interface

the downside to the Hosehead is it is just the controller. add $140 for the brewpot + basket, another $120 for the Chugger and $150 for the BoilCoil and you're in the same neighborhood as the High Gravity, which includes all that plus hose connections

I did link the wrong system tho, with the chugger pump, it's going to cost you $899. same price range as the Hosehead plus the remaining stuff I listed

but, like the BrewPi, Hosehead has the added I-can-do-it-from-my-smartphone cool factor
Click to expand...

The Hosehead is also overkill if your doing BIAB, your not controlling two elements. It is designed for a 3 Vessel HERMS or RIM's system really, where the cost savings over an equivilent multi PID premade 30A panel are huge. Its also designed for 240V, which is great in that you will come up to temp way faster but also requires a 240V GFCI outlet which can be expensive to put in.

If the system is just 5G BIAB then the High gravity very well could be the best deal.
 
FuzzeWuzze said:
The Hosehead is also overkill if your doing BIAB, your not controlling two elements. It is designed for a 3 Vessel HERMS or RIM's system really, where the cost savings over an equivilent 30A panel are huge. Its also designed for 240V, which is great in that you will come up to temp way faster but also requires a 240V GFCI outlet which can be expensive to put in.

If the system is just 5G BIAB then the High gravity very well could be the best deal.
Click to expand...

I'm waiting for FuzzeWuzze's DIY Hosehead build thread :rockin:
 
GrogNerd said:
I'm waiting for FuzzeWuzze's DIY Hosehead build thread :rockin:
Click to expand...

Ha well my panel is already built, ive thought about putting one together though. The problem is its not as cut and dry as a BrewPi, there is a lot of mechanical work required like drilling holes, routing wires etc that you dont necessarily need to do for the BrewPi...hell for the first year my DIY Brewpi was a sprawl of wires and electronics on my garage floor by the fermentation freezer. The enclosure for a Panel is a lot more personal on what people want or dont want, but ill probably get around to writing something generic people can go off of.
 
FuzzeWuzze said:
Ha well my panel is already built, ive thought about putting one together though. The problem is its not as cut and dry as a BrewPi, there is a lot of mechanical work required like drilling holes, routing wires etc that you dont necessarily need to do for the BrewPi...hell for the first year my DIY Brewpi was a sprawl of wires and electronics on my garage floor by the fermentation freezer. The enclosure for a Panel is a lot more personal on what people want or dont want, but ill probably get around to writing something generic people can go off of.
Click to expand...

my BrewPi is still a mess (but working like a BOSS!). everything is sitting loosely in the Harbor Freight ammo box ($3.75!) which will eventually become the enclosure. just needs drilling/cutting

something similar to the wiring diagram you provided for he BrewPi (well, 100amps did) should be good as a starting point for anyone to figure out their own custom control panel for a DIY Hosehead
 
ajdelange said:
Sure it would. You might well say it is inadvisable to operate in an environment like a brewery but there is no need for GFCI other than to provide protection from low level leakage (i.e. through the brewer).



The function of a breaker is to protect the wiring downstream of the breaker. If a 50 Amp breaker is installed in a panel you must use #8 or larger wire from the panel to the receptacle. It is perfectly acceptable to plug a 30 Amp device into this receptacle. If it faults and draws 50 Amps then the breaker at the panel will not trip nor should it. It is designed to trip when there is danger of the wire to the receptacle over heating.

If you want to protect the 30 A device from faults then the device itself should be equipped with a protective breaker or fuse.
Click to expand...

Thats what i wanted to clarify, if your using a 50A circuit you need to wire your panel as if it was 50A even if your only using it as a 30A panel. This may not be intuitive to everyone.

Also yes its technically possible, but HIGHLY ill advised to not have GFCI protection on your breaker. Not to mention its downright against code if your brewing in certain places in your house like a Garage.
 
Spinout said:
I'd like to stop propane cooker brewing and go electric. But...the more I read on here, the more I realize I know nothing. Getting a heating element installed into my keggle is straightforward enough, but it's all the stuff between it and the wall outlet that losses me. Are there systems a guy can buy, plug it into the wall and plug your heating element into it.....and that's about it?
I read a little about the brew boss, seems fairly simple....what about others?
Right now I'm using a keggle, 30qt HLT, and 5 gallon cooler/MLT. I wouldn't complain about going to biab but also wouldn't mind having a Herms /rims system either. I also have a 50amp receptacle in the shop for power. What systems should I be looking at?
Iknow it seems like a very broad question, but all the threads about control panel builds makes me just want to buy a Pre assembled kit that just needs plugged into the wall.
Click to expand...

Steve has various options. Check it out.
http://brausupply.com/
 
FuzzeWuzze said:
Thats what i wanted to clarify, if your using a 50A circuit you need to wire your panel as if it was 50A even if your only using it as a 30A panel. .
Click to expand...
I dont see how thats true if you install a 30a fuse or breaker on the main power source inside your panel or if everything powered off of it is fused individually?

I own a lot of appliances like a regular lamp with a 60w flashbulb that, even though they are being plugged into a 15amp circuit are only rated for a few amps of draw... How is this different?
 
GrogNerd said:
thanks for the heads up on the Hosehead, I'm looking into that.

thanks to YOU, I built my own BrewPi, YOU KNOW I'm not afraid of a little electronics DIY with a web interface

the downside to the Hosehead is it is just the controller. add $140 for the brewpot + basket, another $120 for the Chugger and $150 for the BoilCoil and you're in the same neighborhood as the High Gravity, which includes all that plus hose connections

I did link the wrong system tho, with the chugger pump, it's going to cost you $899. same price range as the Hosehead plus the remaining stuff I listed

but, like the BrewPi, Hosehead has the added I-can-do-it-from-my-smartphone cool factor
Click to expand...

Good way of looking at it but its all relative to how one wants to see it really...

See now I think the benefit to the Hosehead is it IS just the controller. add $120 for the 16 gallon bayou brewpot with spigot + $25 for a bag, another $20 for the 3gpm food grade pump + $5 for the powersupply and $27 for the all stainless 5500w ULWD ripple element and you have a system that performs just as well as the High Gravity, but saves you about $300 which you can build a rims tube for holding /stepping mash temps and recirculating during the mash...or a HLT with herms...since the hosehead has more than twice the control capability of the simplier but much more expensive single element/pump HG controller...
 
@OP

Depending on how `caveman` you can handle being while still going electric you can do things MUCH cheaper than the pre-built kits.
A company called "still-dragon" sells what's basically a volume controller dial for your heating element for about $50.

A product called "Hot-Pod" is sold by a HBT sponsor here (Bobby @ Brew Hardware i think) to enclose it against your kettle.

I'll assume you are doing all your temp checks manually now and wouldn't mind continuing doing them that way......that will probably save you 1-k for having not to buy pids or some uneeded control panel built for NASA.

Wanna save even more $$$$ and headache....keep using the HLT as also your BK....only need to buy 1 heating element that way.

Looking to `go bigger` down the road?....buy a "Concord" stock pot off e-bay
25-gallon ones run $110-ish shipped. Smaller ones are cheaper. Choose w/e size you like. Going bigger can mean merely getting a larger pot later on down the road.

Heating elements.....go for the 5500-watt ULWD Bobby@Brew Hardware sells these too i beleive. The 5500-watter gets the water/wort boiling fast.Much faster than the propane and you should be able to go to 15-gallons (or higher) without having to replace it later.

Hope this helps.
 
Spinout said:
Right now I'm using a keggle, 30qt HLT, and 5 gallon cooler/MLT. I wouldn't complain about going to biab but also wouldn't mind having a Herms /rims system either. I also have a 50amp receptacle in the shop for power. What systems should I be looking at?
Iknow it seems like a very broad question, but all the threads about control panel builds makes me just want to buy a Pre assembled kit that just needs plugged into the wall.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of fine options suggested here, no doubt, but I'm wondering if I could put in a plug for another possibility: a Grainfather. I also have a propane system and looked at theelectricbrewery.com. Although i was sorely tempted, that was overkill for my needs because i was making more beer than i could drink. Just looking at what the OP is currently using, I would urge taking a look at what the GF has to offer. It was perfect for me. Now I get to brew twice as often (yay) and have more variety.
 
Gspot-
A simple All-n-1 system sure has its appeal, esp cleaning and storage. Plus, like you, I'm brewing more than I'm drinking....I have 6 kegs and sometimes have to put off brewing because I know I won't have space for several weeks (bring on 1/2batch brewing)

Paps-
I can certainly relate to caveman operations, but eventually getting away from some of it is very appealing, esp lifting heavy pots with water/wort. I had checked out the site you mentioned, I think the simple control and maybe adding a pump with manual control would suffice for a very long time.

Jonnyrotten-
PID SSR???? Yeah, that's where I am right now. I'd like to think I'm fairly intelligent, but I haven't a clue about components so I don't know where to even begin. Is there a rundown of components and definitions? I feel once I know what things do, I'd know what I need/want to start the project.

Everyone else-
Thanks for the input, some of the systems I'd checked out before when reading about other's builds. If i could convince myself 5 gallons a month is all I'll brew for the next several years, a simple 120v biab system is what I'd be ordering.... But I like to overdo things.
 
I built my own. It is an eBIAB Keggle with a 4500W water heater element that was a closeout from Home Depot for $12. The safety is a Eaton CH spa panel (50A) two pole GFCI. Wired for 30A service and plugged into a 30A dryer circuit, which is a perfectly good way of doing it. I have a MyPin TA4 PID and a 40A SSR (I had this from a former project) and I added a series SSVR. I like this even though it is a bit of a kludge because I use the SSVR not only for boil, but to fine tune the mash with the PID control a little. I turn the SSVR down to about half and that helps keep from flash denaturing the enzymes in the mash. A PID stands for Proportional Integral Differential control, it is a linear predictive (mathematical formula) that attempts to actually predict in advance the heat needed to hold a temperature. It holds to about 2F where you could get nowhere close to that with a "bang bang" thermostat. Since it is a linear predictor, it won't work for boil control so that us why the manual SSVR (which is a fancy name for a light dimmer, really) is used for boil off control. None of it is complicated. I use two heatsinks with a 110V "Boxer" fan to keep the SSR and SSVR cool. Really simple stuff. I recirculate with a little 12V eBay solar pump. You can do it, and cheaply. I have about $300 in the Keggle eBIAB with the keg and wilsenbrewer bag total. It works great and I can do it all inside. I will never go back...
 
Since it is a linear predictor, it won't work for boil control so that us why the manual SSVR (which is a fancy name for a light dimmer, really) is used for boil off control.

You don't need to go through this extra work.You need a PID with manual mode. THe Aubrins 2352 or mypin td4(I think that's the mypin model) are the PID's you want.With manual mode you can control the boil by adjusting the power to the element.
 
JohnnyRotten is right. The TD4 I use in my setup allows you to set the duty cycle for the SSR. If you set it to 80, you get the SSR output turned on for 80% of the default 2 second cycle time. You can set it in 1% increments. End result is the same as the potentiometer and SSVR. Nice thing about that setup is that it can be used for both PID and manual duty cycle modes.
 
I added the SSVR to the TA4 because I already had the TA4.. But I decided to then auto tune the mash with the SSVR set to about half power and I suspect that with the LWD element I am using that is making it act like a ULWD element. To then go to boil mode I set the PID for 250F and use the SSVR knob. I kinda like that extra analog control. Yes I do know the TD4s have the duty cycle control and probably would have done it that way without the existing "junk drawer" items but really I am happier with the SSVR being available all the time and having a knob to adjust the boil.
 
UndeadFred said:
I built my own. It is an eBIAB Keggle with a 4500W water heater element that was a closeout from Home Depot for $12. The safety is a Eaton CH spa panel (50A) two pole GFCI. Wired for 30A service and plugged into a 30A dryer circuit, which is a perfectly good way of doing it. I have a MyPin TA4 PID and a 40A SSR (I had this from a former project) and I added a series SSVR. I like this even though it is a bit of a kludge because I use the SSVR not only for boil, but to fine tune the mash with the PID control a little. I turn the SSVR down to about half and that helps keep from flash denaturing the enzymes in the mash. A PID stands for Proportional Integral Differential control, it is a linear predictive (mathematical formula) that attempts to actually predict in advance the heat needed to hold a temperature. It holds to about 2F where you could get nowhere close to that with a "bang bang" thermostat. Since it is a linear predictor, it won't work for boil control so that us why the manual SSVR (which is a fancy name for a light dimmer, really) is used for boil off control. None of it is complicated. I use two heatsinks with a 110V "Boxer" fan to keep the SSR and SSVR cool. Really simple stuff. I recirculate with a little 12V eBay solar pump. You can do it, and cheaply. I have about $300 in the Keggle eBIAB with the keg and wilsenbrewer bag total. It works great and I can do it all inside. I will never go back...
Click to expand...

This sounds like a good start for me. It sounds like I can add to this system in the future, just need more of the same components and more vessels/pumps/connections? Or I can just stay biab with my current keggle if I'm content.
I found the TD4 on amazon and I can get a box locally. But, is there a thread on here, a sticky somewhere, or a website that has the breakdown of all controller components and what they do? I've read many threads on builds, but even looking at schematics I'm lost. It's almost embarrassing to say I have a degree in electronics and work on communication eqpt, but I'm at a loss with this stuff.
 
Your looking at in in reverse.First figure out what you want out of your control box,Will you be adding pumps,do you really need an alarm ETC...Then figure out the parts and wiring from there...I went bare bones and am more than happy with it.A year later and I still wounldnt add anything,it gets the job done.

My simple setup:
Aubrins 2352 pid
Temp probe and wire connections from aubrins.
40 amp SSR
Heatsink off ebay. The bigger the better.
A light switch from HD to turn power off to element
30 amp receptacles from HD
An emergency stop(red button) that hopefully will never get used

The pot:
5500W hot water heating element
very simple connection from brewhardware to mount the element to the kettle.,Much nicer and easier than the kal clone connection(no disrespect to Kal)

I run a 10G cord from the dryer to a spa panel,and a 10G extention cord from the spa panel in the basement to my kitchen where I brew. Very simple all around and works fantastic...Also brewing indoors in the middle of the winter with the tunes on and a fire goin is mighty nice...Get er' goin!!

20160109_120258.jpg
 
I did sorta document my system on Facebook on the Home Brew Network. But I will try to clean it up early next week and post a zip here for you. Most electric brewery type systems are full up 3V. If I admitted my sparge vessel is a 5 Gallon HDPE bucket with a 20A high watt density 115V element in it the experts here would barf all over me. (it is fine even at boil). So if I do post what I did I am going to disclaim that it is 100% up to you what you do with that info. I am not suggesting that you build my setup. But I can likely make it clear enough. Even my element mounting is the cheapest you can get.. And will be criticized by the experts. The spa panel two pole GFCI is the key. One thought I had for a really cheap system was a 15 gallon aluminum pot with a 5500W element run at 120V (1250W) for use on a stove or a dorm room electric burner or a better kettle with that and a 1500W induction plate. There are many off the wall ideas that can work for a beginning system. I am an Electrical Engineer too, used to work on radios, now I am working on big airplanes. Mostly software, but that us where the $ is. This stuff is really simple by comparison.
 
I will say that 7A at 245V according to the meter I have on my system will sustain 7 gallons so that gives you an idea of the minimum in a 5 Gallon system. It needs better than 10A to get to a boil. So that is 3KW total..
 
I'm putting together a new ebiab setup currently and I was in the same boat. After a few weeks of research, I realized I could definitely build one, but with a 10 month old son and another one on the way, I know I would never have the time. I found the Jaggerbush Bbr1.0 online and I think it's the cheapest pre-made unit by far. I've been emailing the owner/builder and he seems pretty straight forward. I'm probably going to pull the trigger this week.
 

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