Gluten Free might just be getting better! A LOT BETTER!

[Osedax]

I don't want to get off topic but, yes, I have yet to see anyone have a reaction because it is such a tiny amount. Somewhere around 2ppm in a 5 gallon batch. However, saying that it is gluten free is a misnomer. It originally came from a barley product therefore... gluten reduced. Having said that I use them with no problems but, I warn people first. Most don't care or mind and have 0 reaction.
-end rant

 

[Jaybird]

I don't want to be a preachy Patty but, White Labs yeast is not gluten free. It's not a problem for most but, you might want to put an asterisks next to that last recipe.

Also.... wow, that is a lot of malt for one recipe! You must be accounting for terrible efficiency on our systems because rice should have a fairly high extract. Enzymes may be required.

Honestly, it looks like... SCIENCE is required! I am going to run a battery once I get mine. What gap are you milling this at? Also, will you be posting malt analysis for color?

Thanks for the recipes, Jay!

I want to post the color I really do but from our maltster we just dont have that information just yet. I am pushing him to get it and I am going as far as getting a lab set up to do it for him. So until we actually do get the lab set up to test the color. All we have is what we listed.
Gap? The mill rollers almost touch! They are as close as they can be without touching. I dont have a feeler gauge on it yet but I will do that tomorrow. The mill gap is set as close as I can get it on this new mill.
Yes that is a LOT of malt/Rice. You need 20-25% more malted rice to get the same OG of your basic barley. Nature of the beast after malting from what I am getting from the maltster. I am going to run a 5 gallon batch of the Belgian on my false bottom system and just see what kind of efficiency I personally get. That is what he got on his system of the beers I tasted.

Most liquid yeasts are not gluten free because the yeast are grown on barley. It might be that the PPM of gluten is low enough to be considered gluten free when it's pitched into 5 gallons of wort. If that's the case, it might be safe for some, but still a problem for others. Maybe put a warning in the description stating that or something...

True... White labs is not gluten free. It is at 12PPM per vial so they cant call it Gluten Free. But when you plop that 12PPM in a 5 gallon batch you end up at 2PPM WELL below the 10PPM that is said to be Gluten Free.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Jaybird]

Maybe put a warning in the description stating that or something...

Edits made to original post...

Cheers

Jay

 

[BBBF]

Edits made to original post...

Cheers

Jay

I meant on the gluten free section of your webpage, but putting that in the recipe post was a good catch.

I personally don't think something should be called gluten free, when it is known that it has gluten in it. The Fermentis and Lallemand yeasts are gluten free. A vial of White Labs is not gluten free, but it can be diluted to 2PPM, which is well below the 10PPM set by the FDA.

For me, if I was just avoiding gluten for minor health or fad reason, that would be good enough. For my wife, who has major health issues, she would prefer me come home with a package of US 05 because that 2PPM in the beer gets added to 8PPM from lunch and 9PPM from dinner and the sum of all the parts is enough to make her sick.

Maybe that's more of an FDA/Industry labeling issue than a Nor Cal
Brewing issue, but from my experience the gluten free people are a cautious bunch. Giving them a little extra detail can go a long way towards building their trust.

Any who... Stepping down from the soap box and can't wait to give the rice malt a try.

 

[Jaybird]

I meant on the gluten free section of your webpage, but putting that in the recipe post was a good catch.

but from my experience the gluten free people are a cautious bunch. Giving them a little extra detail can go a long way towards building their trust.

Any who... Stepping down from the soap box and can't wait to give the rice malt a try.

Great advise I will gladly take!

Thanks a bunch for your input!

Cheers
Jay

 

[Jaybird]

The gap setting on my RICE MILL is set to .010...... Hope that helps you guys that are ordering this rice un-milled. It is a good looking mill gap and one that is very hard to reach for most mills.

Cheers
Jay

 

[coravetz]

I have a gluten-free relative that would like a great tasting beer, so this is very timely. Would you have any pics of the beer you've brewed with this or from others?

I'm also more of a Extract Brewer than a AG guy (moving this direction soon). Could I use the Briess Syrups in conjunction with the rice to do a batch? A kit would be MOST EXCELLENT and I'd buy a few to experiment if you're willing to try to pull something like this together. I do get to Shasta during the summer months too for some fly fishing, so I'd be willing to drop some beers off from some brew days and stop at the shop.

 

[mergs]

Good to see a new source of GF ingredients! I wish you success!

couple of comments...

the white labs liquid yeast isn't GF so you might not want it to appear on the GF page of your site. most of us learn this going into the gf brewing adventure but i wouldn't want to take the call when a celiac has a bad day with it. its unlikely you'll get that call but technically its a risk for them. the dry yeasts are gf.

is the malted rice from a domestic source, or is it overseas rice? overseas rice can be contaminated with pesticides and heavy metals. domestic sources are "cleaner". i see "american" listed in the description so i assume so but just want to double check.

again, thanks. not trying to be overly critical, just wanted to point out some observations.

 

[Jaybird]

Good to see a new source of GF ingredients! I wish you success!

couple of comments...

the white labs liquid yeast isn't GF so you might not want it to appear on the GF page of your site. most of us learn this going into the gf brewing adventure but i wouldn't want to take the call when a celiac has a bad day with it. its unlikely you'll get that call but technically its a risk for them. the dry yeasts are gf.

is the malted rice from a domestic source, or is it overseas rice? overseas rice can be contaminated with pesticides and heavy metals. domestic sources are "cleaner". i see "american" listed in the description so i assume so but just want to double check.

again, thanks. not trying to be overly critical, just wanted to point out some observations.

Great feedback I really appreciate it! Yes the rice itself is premium grade rice from a local grower here in Northern California. It is very cool that we get to source it locally.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Jaybird]

White Labs yeast is now gone from that page...

Cheers
Jay

 

[PaintedRat]

Any plans to stock other malted GF grains like millet in the future? Planning another order soon.

 

[Jaybird]

Any plans to stock other malted GF grains like millet in the future? Planning another order soon.

YES.... I will be ordering plenty on my next grain order. Looks like Mon or Tues of next week I will be placing a new order from my vendors and Millet will be on that order. I will have Victor get it on the site ASAP! Any other requests?

Cheers
Jay

 

[JPrather]

This is neat. I've been looking at trying my hand at GF brewing and this is promising for sure. A few things:

1) Candi Syrup seems to be very popular among GF recipes, you may consider putting your Belgian Candi Syrups on the GF page (unless for some reason they're not GF of course).

2) You state that rice needs "20-25% more" a few times in this thread, yet the recipes you've posted seem to be using more like 130% more rice malt than you'd need for barley.

E.G. your IPA recipe is using 26lbs for a 5 gallon/1.052 batch. A barley version would need about 10-11lbs of grain. Just curious, it almost looks like those are grain bills for 10gal batches.

3) A huge +1 to carrying the Briess Brown Rice Syrup extract, that would be huge for guys like me would likely want to partial mash some GF beers. It's kind of hard to find. You probably want to carry/list their Sorghum syrup as well.

 

[yogensha]

Any special considerations for lautering the malted rice?

Also this paper suggests that incomplete saccharification due to the high gelatinization temperature of malted rice very measurably impacts the extraction yield:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2010.tb00431.x/full

This is probably why the recipes call for so much more malt.

 

[DonH]

super cool thread. thank you so much! about to purchase some RICE!

 

[Jaybird]

This is neat. I've been looking at trying my hand at GF brewing and this is promising for sure. A few things:

1) Candi Syrup seems to be very popular among GF recipes, you may consider putting your Belgian Candi Syrups on the GF page (unless for some reason they're not GF of course).

2) You state that rice needs "20-25% more" a few times in this thread, yet the recipes you've posted seem to be using more like 130% more rice malt than you'd need for barley.

E.G. your IPA recipe is using 26lbs for a 5 gallon/1.052 batch. A barley version would need about 10-11lbs of grain. Just curious, it almost looks like those are grain bills for 10gal batches.

3) A huge +1 to carrying the Briess Brown Rice Syrup extract, that would be huge for guys like me would likely want to partial mash some GF beers. It's kind of hard to find. You probably want to carry/list their Sorghum syrup as well.

I will contact the brewer tomorrow AM and ask him about that the QTY and batch size.

I am not getting any real good answers about Briess Brown Rice Syrup. Every where I contact it is out of stock. I am wondering if Briess has stopped making it. I will contact them tomorrow.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Osedax]

Thanks Jay. And, thanks for putting up with all of our questions and restrictions. I really hope this works out for you!

My limited research tells me that the gelatinization temperature of long grain rice is around 160F. Short and medium grain are less but, this looks to be long grain. A modified millet mash should work. My worry is the enzyme activity. It might help to put some millet in with it. Maybe 50/50 millet and rice malt.

My fist batch will be all rice to form a baseline. Can't wait to order this! You guys have my next paycheck.

 

[yogensha]

My limited research tells me that the gelatinization temperature of long grain rice is around 160F. Short and medium grain are less but, this looks to be long grain. A modified millet mash should work. My worry is the enzyme activity. It might help to put some millet in with it. Maybe 50/50 millet and rice malt.

It seems to vary quite a bit between varieties. Unfortunately, beta-amylase activity is degraded even at 160 F (71 C), and may be completely denatured after exposure times long enough to completely gelatinize the rice starch. You'd be trading extract yield for fermentability, which may be helpful or hurtful depending on your goals.

Adding millet or any other extra diastatic malt is only helpful if the rice starch is first completely gelatinized. You'd have to perform a cereal mash, decoction or otherwise cook the rice by itself at or above the gelatinization temperature prior to adding the additional diastatic malt.

Of course, you can also do as the recipe suggests and simply increase the size of the malt bill.

My fist batch will be all rice to form a baseline. Can't wait to order this! You guys have my next paycheck.

Looking forward to hearing about your results!

 

[Jaybird]

OK well I just got off the phone with Briess and they do not make a Brown Rice Syrup anymore. BUT..... They do buy and carry what they call Clarified Brown rice syrup and they ONLY sell this in a 55# pail and a 640# drum.
Now as it sits we do not repackage liquid malts. I am not against it but as of right now I am not set up to do that. Here is the reason. I think MOST homebrew shops that do repackage liquid malts don't keep their liquid in the proper environment (on gas) and to get set up to do it right IMO is expensive, which is why the shops don't keep their pails on gas and I have chosen not to repackage liquid malt (ya know do it right or not at all).
NOW. That said I think I can move a 55# pail if repacked properly fairly quickly (before it spoils). Maybe we do a trial "PRE BUY"...
Give me your thoughts on that guys and IF we do decide to repackage this are you guys thinking 3# packs or 7# packs that you would like to have on hand? From my end I would like to probably see the 7# because the plastic 7# pails are easy to find.

Anyway just a couple of things to think about.

Cheers
Jay

 

[JPrather]

OK well I just got off the phone with Briess and they do not make a Brown Rice Syrup anymore. BUT..... They do buy and carry what they call Clarified Brown rice syrup and they ONLY sell this in a 55# pail and a 640# drum. ::snip::

Interesting. I had noticed the "Clarified" version on their site the other day and didn't think much of it.

From what I'm reading on the Briess site, the Clarified version provides "Almost no flavor or color". So, it provides fermentables with the addition of proteins for head retention, etc.

 

[BBBF]

Interesting. I had noticed the "Clarified" version on their site the other day and didn't think much of it.

From what I'm reading on the Briess site, the Clarified version provides "Almost no flavor or color". So, it provides fermentables with the addition of proteins for head retention, etc.

At that point, I might just use corn syrup or tapioca syrup.


As to the question on size, I think a lot of the GF brewers are just doing 5 gallon batches and the idea is to use 1/2 rice syrup and 1/2 sorghum, so 3lbs makes more sense for me, but 7lbs wouldn't be a deal breaker if I needed it.

Of course, if the malted rice works out, I'll be less interested in the rice syrup.

 

[ricemaltster]

Rice maltster here,
I finally had time to check out this forum. I appreciate all the work Jaybird has done in addressing questions about my rice malts. Brewing with rice malt is challenging, but the results have fooled quite a few beer drinkers.
We are all on a new frontier in brewing. My journey started about 5 years ago. Not much was available and my wife hates sorghum and turned out to be sensitive to it too. I began malting rice and have been perfecting my process since.
I source rice from local Sacramento valley growers. Equipment for growing, harvesting, storing, cleaning and transportation of rice is quite specialized and not used for other crops. My facility is gluten free with plans to only malt rice. Rice is a smaller grain than barley and has a significant husk which accounts for 20% of the grain weight. Jay addressed the mill setting, be aware the husk on rice is very resilient and holds up to aggressive milling. It should remain relatively intact and serve in filtering. To my knowledge rice has not been bred for malting quality. It has more limited enzyme activity than barley. I endeavor to tease out as much activity as possible. This said, mash time can be very long compared to barley. Efficiency of rice malt is likely less than barley. Addition of enzymes may help with this, but I try to be patient. The rice I use has a gelatinization temperature around 150F (65C). I have had success with a single temperature infusion, but better results with step temperature or decoction methods.
Not to stoke the fire too much, but I do plan on producing malted rice concentrated syrup as soon as I can get the remaining pieces of equipment together. Nor Cal will likely be the first carry this product. Initially producing pale malt syrup, but could add colored malt syrups in the future if there is demand.
I applaud Nor Cal Brewing Solutions for their commitment to home brewers including the gluten intolerant.
Cheers,
Jim

 

[Osedax]

Fire stoked! Want malted rice extract!

Thanks for all of this. I hope your product is as good as I expect it will be.

150F you say? Interesting. This is long grain correct?

Do you have any estimates on color? I know Jay said you don't have any thing yet but, a guesstimate would be great. For instance; how much of your darkest to turn a five gallon batch black(stout)?

Any other specifics would be greatly welcome. Can't wait for this product! Ordering tomorrow.

 

[Jaybird]

Rice maltster here,
I finally had time to check out this forum. I appreciate all the work Jaybird has done in addressing questions about my rice malts. Brewing with rice malt is challenging, but the results have fooled quite a few beer drinkers.
We are all on a new frontier in brewing. My journey started about 5 years ago. Not much was available and my wife hates sorghum and turned out to be sensitive to it too. I began malting rice and have been perfecting my process since.
I source rice from local Sacramento valley growers. Equipment for growing, harvesting, storing, cleaning and transportation of rice is quite specialized and not used for other crops. My facility is gluten free with plans to only malt rice. Rice is a smaller grain than barley and has a significant husk which accounts for 20% of the grain weight. Jay addressed the mill setting, be aware the husk on rice is very resilient and holds up to aggressive milling. It should remain relatively intact and serve in filtering. To my knowledge rice has not been bred for malting quality. It has more limited enzyme activity than barley. I endeavor to tease out as much activity as possible. This said, mash time can be very long compared to barley. Efficiency of rice malt is likely less than barley. Addition of enzymes may help with this, but I try to be patient. The rice I use has a gelatinization temperature around 150F (65C). I have had success with a single temperature infusion, but better results with step temperature or decoction methods.
Not to stoke the fire too much, but I do plan on producing malted rice concentrated syrup as soon as I can get the remaining pieces of equipment together. Nor Cal will likely be the first carry this product. Initially producing pale malt syrup, but could add colored malt syrups in the future if there is demand.
I applaud Nor Cal Brewing Solutions for their commitment to home brewers including the gluten intolerant.
Cheers,
Jim

Jim
Congrats on joining the forum! Great first post my friend.
Thanks a bunch for jumping in and helping answer some questions. So I can guess your just tired of me calling you on the phone huh? LOL just kidding..Maybe

Cheers
Jay

 

[ricemaltster]

There is some Lovibond testing I forgot about on the following malts: Pale rice malt 1.4, Biscuit 4.8, Crystal 16.0, James' 22.0. I do not have analysis of the darker malts, but you can look at the attached photo of equivalent extracts made from both rice and barley. These were all done utilizing the standard method to determine Lovibond level. I do not have a Lovibond color chart that I am confident in yet, but my best guess is that "Gas Hog" is at least in the 70 range. Hopefully, this will give you enough guidance until I can get official analysis done. I feel my "Gas Hog" malt is not too far off from black patent.
I malt medium grain rice only.

View attachment Malt extract color comparisons 2.pdf

 

[Jaybird]

Jim
I am working with Coastal Science Labs right now to get your Gas Hog tested.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Jaybird]

If I was to guess, the Lovibond of Gas Hog is around 300-350

Jay

 

[ricemaltster]

Hi Jay,

As my wife would say "It's all good" as far as involvement. I finally found time from malting to check this out and take a little pressure off you. I appreciate the effort to get testing. I have looked for Lovibond charts and they don't seem to agree, especially in the darker realm.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[JPrather]

Thanks for posting Jim. It all sounds very promising and at least worth testing out. Regardless I think you're going to end up with all the feedback in the world from everyone here on HBT sooner rather than later .

Looking forward to the rice extract as well, as a partial mash brewer who can only mash about 4lbs of grain, I'd love to be able to do more than 1.5 gallon batches .

For that matter, are the mash/sparge water volume requirements for rice malt similar to barley? Maybe something that needs to be experimented with.

Any word on the recipes from before? Jay had posted some recipes for "5 gallon batches", but they seemed to have a lot more rice than the 20% difference.

For that matter, for designing recipes, would entering them in BeerSmith with a potential of ~1.026-1.028 or so be an effective way to estimate the extract potential of these grains?

 

[Osedax]

There is some Lovibond testing I forgot about on the following malts: Pale rice malt 1.4, Biscuit 4.8, Crystal 16.0, James' 22.0. I do not have analysis of the darker malts, but you can look at the attached photo of equivalent extracts made from both rice and barley. These were all done utilizing the standard method to determine Lovibond level. I do not have a Lovibond color chart that I am confident in yet, but my best guess is that "Gas Hog" is at least in the 70 range. Hopefully, this will give you enough guidance until I can get official analysis done. I feel my "Gas Hog" malt is not too far off from black patent.
I malt medium grain rice only.

Great info! Thanks! :rockin:

 

[number40fan]

Any news on the batch sizes?

 

[ricemaltster]

Here is a chart I made a while back. It shows the plotting of 16 brews made with my rice malt. I included all malt in this, but the majority was pale base malt. This shows the pounds of rice malt used per gallon of wort at yeast pitch (after boil) and the original specific gravity achieved at that point. It turns out to be be relatively close to a straight line function and should help determine the malt needed for any given batch size.

I hope this is helpful.

Not sure if I got the pdf uploaded.

 

[ricemaltster]

Ok, second try at getting attachment.

Cheers

 

[Osedax]

This good info. Any mash details? Rests, system efficiency, grist ratio, mill gap, etc. Anything you can provide. This data is similar to what I have been seeing. I put the pale in as 20ppg. Good stuff.

 

[glutarded-chris]

If I understand this correctly, this looks like 14 to 15 ppg after the boil. Taking account for boil off that puts it around 13 to 14 ppg, correct?

 

[ricemaltster]

Ok, so I have to admit I have never looked at the ppg before. From my calculations I would say you are both right on track with estimates. I know this is substantially lower than barley. My earlier estimates of percent rice malt compared to barley malt are under estimates. Since rice grain is substantially smaller than barley, the ratio of germ to starch is higher. In addition, the rice hull is more substantial than barley, accounting for 20% of the weight of the unmalted paddy grain. I have not checked the malted percent, but I would bet it is a bit higher hull percentage than the paddy rice. I will look into this very soon. All this said, it will take substantially more rice to brew equivalent gravity beer.

Brewers rice grain that has been historically used is milled white grain. This has had the hull, germ and bran layer removed. All that remains is the starchy endosperm, which is highly convertible to sugar (depending on variety). Also no flavor or other desirable characteristics of malted grain.

I don't have a good answer for mill setting (I believe Jaybird mentioned a setting he uses in an earlier post). I don't have a good mill yet and I am a bit concerned giving a setting when there are so many different mills on the market that may crush differentially. I would say get a similar crush as barley, but it will take a bit of adjusting down to achieve it. Home brewer roller mills may not be adjustable close enough for rice. Without naming brand, the one I have does not adjust close enough.

Step mash schedule is not so dissimilar to barley. The optimal enzyme activity temperature generally will need to be held longer to achieve full conversion. I generally do decoction mash, taking portions of the mash to a separate kettle to heat just slightly above gelatinization temperature, then returning to main mash. This raises the temp of the mash slowly and does not destroy too many of the enzymes. Very labor intensive!

I hope I have answered all your questions.
Keep me on my toes!

 

[Osedax]

If I understand this correctly, this looks like 14 to 15 ppg after the boil. Taking account for boil off that puts it around 13 to 14 ppg, correct?

That is what the data implies. However, you have to take in to account system/mash efficiency. You need that to backtrack to total extract potential. If you assume 70% efficiency and a total extract of 20 ppg then you would arrive right at 14 ppg post boil. This lines up with my own anecdotal evidence. So, when you enter it into a brewing calculator, enter 20 or 1.020 or 43.5%. Hopefully, that makes sense.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Ah, that makes sense! You are putting in the potential so on that basis you can estimate what you will get with mixing with other grains.

I do partial mashes so I look at what is produced in the end and make up the rest with other fermentables. Everything else that I add is simple ppg so I put my mash yield on that basis.

 

[glutarded-chris]

@ ricemaltster (aka Jim) finally found your website. What is the minimum order size or are we to order through other dealers such as Jaybird?

 

[ricemaltster]

I understand the desire to purchase directly from the malt house. I have a production facility that fills 35lb bags. Unfortunately, I don't have the staff to fill small orders. What I would suggest is either go through NorCal Brewing Solutions or contact your local home brew store to see if they would be interested in carrying my malt. It may be a hard sell until there is enough interest in gluten free malt to warrant the necessary changes to their shop to accommodate separate storage and milling like NorCal Brewing Solutions has done. They are at the forefront of serving the gluten free home brewer.

Cheers