GF AG - first attempt and questions

[billl]

A friend recently asked me to brew up some gluten free beer for her. I'm an AG brewer and have some experience doing decoction and step mashes (which based on the mash schedules reported here seems like what is necessary). She requested a dark beer.

So, I was thinking something along the lines of a Belgian Dubel - since most of the flavor comes from the yeast and candi sugar. Couple of questions - warnings and any other opinions welcome.

1) It sounds like malted millet is the most accessible way to start. I've seen 2 companies listed - any preferences or major differences I should know about? I'd be starting with small test batches, so do either have order minimums etc.

2) It looks like the Colorado Malting company had a variety of specialty malts as well. I was thinking maybe a 4/1 ratio of regular millet to munich as a base. Any experience with the millet munich vs the buckwheat munich? Would I be better of trying to toast some of my own.

3) It looks like some people are using enyzmes even with the complicated mash. I've seen some talk of more complete enzyme mixes (not just alpha am) but I haven't seen any sources for that? Is it necessary, or would the step mash plus amylase be fine?

4) Yeast - seems to be a lot of mixed experiences. WhiteLabs claims to be "technically" GF at 2ppm. How does the dilution work if I made a generation or 2 of starters and then decanted the liquid? eg if I decant 80% of the liquid, does that bring it to 0.4ppm and then 0.08ppm for a second round? Or does the gluten tend to bind to the yeast and not be uniformly distributed in the liquid? Does Clarityferm knock that even lower? I don't think she's had any reactions to anything labeled GF, but I'd prefer to error on the side of caution.

5) Any unusual hop reactions with Millet? I've read that sorghum tilts toward citrus.

 

[glutarded-chris]

My two cents worth:

CMC and Grouse are both good. CMC typically has red millet and Grouse has white. You will find some opinions on here. I have had good results from both but I do partial mashes so I don't get the full effect. Grouse seems to do a better job at getting the little rootlets off the grain. CMC has a 5 lb min order for each grain I think. Grouse will sell in any amount as far as I know.

Some discussion of enzymes and mash schedule in feedback I got on one of my posts:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/poor-efficiency-millet-buckwheat-460357/

I have had really good luck with Safale US-05, others use Safale US-04 for certain styles. I would not recommend Nottingham or Windsor. There are good options for GF yeast, don't even mess with ones that may have gluten even if it is small.

My limited experimentation with hop varieties is that you have to go with the citrus and not against it. My cascade batches came out good and my all E.K. Golding was not as good so I only use the Golding if it is combined with cascade. Seek advice from others. In any case, hops go a long way toward diminishing the sorghum twang. I dry hop every batch.


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[billl]

Well, after 2 weeks of emailing and calling, I gave up on Grouse. I heard they were "slow to respond", but that is ridiculous. I just ordered some pale malt from CMC and will give oven roasting a try to make some "Munich".

The dry belgian selection is less than impressive. I decided to turn this more into a brown ale and grabbed some dry english yeast.

 

[Osedax]

Grouse is pretty swamped right now. Twila handles all of the malting and customer service. They are working with a good amount of commercial breweries right now.

CMC does a good job but, gluten free malt is a bit of an afterthought for them and they seem to be a bit more pricey. Either way, it is going to be loads better than sorghum.

Let us know how this turns out.

 

[billl]

Got my millet today.

It roasted 1 lb @ 300 for 2 hours to get something like Munich. Took half of it out and turned it up to 400 for an hour to get something in the amber range. Left 2oz in there for another half hour or so to get something in the dark brown range. Each stage smelled and tasted pretty good.

So, here is the plan for this weekend for a 2ish gal batch depending on efficiency.

Millet-Malted Grain 4.000 lb
Millet - Munich Grain 8.000 oz
Millet-Amber Grain 6.000 oz
Millet-Brown Grain 2.000 oz
Candi Syrup-D45 Sugar 8.000 oz
Candi Syrup-D90 Sugar 8.000 oz


Kent Goldings 5.5%% 0.500 oz Boil 60.000 min
Kent Goldings 5.5%% 0.500 oz Boil 5.000 min
Kent Goldings 5.5%% 1.000 oz Dry Hop 7.000 day (on the fence with this)

 

[billl]

Milled the millet today. Boy is that different than barley. I put the gap down to 0.012 and it barely cracked the millet. I put it as close as it could go and finally got a fine crush - and a cloud of flour . I looked like pigpen.

Grains smelled much more mellow after a week in a paper bag. Overall, the mix was remarkably barley-like. The only "off" note I could pick out was from the munich level roast. It had a corn/popcorn type note in there somewhere. We'll see if that persists through the mash and boil. The amber was a lot like cara-munich. The brown was very similar with more of a toast and biscuit flavor. The more "roasty" notes seem to have faded from the brown. There are no real sweet/caramel notes from any of them, which is to be expected I guess. Hopefully the candi sugar will help round it out a bit.

 

[BrewWNC]

Interesting. Keep us updated.

 

[billl]

Well, that was a pretty epic brew day - 7 hours.

Rest #1 = 110. I ended up using 1.2 qt/lb. 30 minutes

Rest #2 = 130. Infused with boiling water to 1.7 qt/lb 30 minutes

Decanted about 3 quarts. This was harder than I thought. Grain ground to a flour does not separate much. A round scoop didn't work at all and I resorted to a bread pan and skimmed more than scooped.

Rest #3 - 158 added 1 gallon to grains - had to apply some direct heat as well - 30 minutes

Brought grains to a boil for 10 minutes, stirring constantly.

Totally overshot my cooling. I used a chiller - probably should have just let it sit, but that would have added more time.

Rest #4 - 153 - combined decanted liquid, main mash, and 1/2 tsp amylase - applied direct heat to hit temp - 90 minutes

Drained first runnings and batch sparged to 3.5 gallons. Boiled down to 2.5.


Based on my first runnings, it looks like the potential of the millet was around 1.036. That is higher than I've seen reported. Of course, I could easily have error in measuring weights, volumes and gravity. It's in that ballpark though. My efficiency from mash to fermenter was a bit below normal. The millet did not drain particularly well even with rice hulls. Still, overall, I got 1.025/lb/gallon to overall with about 70% efficiency.

With the candi sugar, the color came out appropriately for a brown ale. However, I'm not sure how that would work just trying to toast the millet though. The wort was very light before the sugar addition. Even with 20% of the grain bill toasted in some way, it would have been a pale ale color at most.

I"m not sure you can judge a beer well from just the wort, but my wife came home during the boil and the first thing she said was "Man it smells like beer in here".

 

[glutarded-chris]

Gluten free brew days with step mashes are grueling for sure!!!!

Did you take a gravity reading from the 3.5 gallons of wart you collected before starting the boil (sample cooled to room temp)?
What was you OG for this batch?

 

[billl]

I have a refractometer, so I sample all the time. Pre-boil gravity was 1.036 for 3.5 gallons. That translated to 1.050 in 2.5 gallons. It was on track for that at 10 minutes when I added the sugars. Measured OG included the candi sugar and was 1.063.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Wow, that is really good! I do a step mash similar to yours but at your step 4 I have been doing 30 minutes. Might start doing 90 minutes like you did.

Was the pale CMC millet you got red or white millet?

 

[billl]

I measured along the way during the mash. I was at about 70% of the total by 30 minutes and 90% by 60 minutes. The extra time at a beta rest definitely seems worth it given how long the total mash is. That is about how my barley mashes tend to run too.

I think it was red millet - at least that is what their website says. The white is listed as only available in 250# plus.

 

[glutarded-chris]

That makes sense. The millet I got from CMC was always red so it makes sense that what you used was red. Makes your results even more impressive as my experience is the white has higher yield than the red.

I thought about getting a refractometer and now I might get one.

 

[billl]

I don't normally poke at my brews at this point....but this is a learning brew.

At 1 week, not exactly what I was looking for. I used a Mangrove Jack Newcastle yeast - which I have never used before. After reading reviews. it seems like many people are getting low attenuation with this company. Oh well, live and learn. It tastes like a decent brown ale - just too sweet for my tastes. I had a half packet of s-05 I had gotten for another experiment, so I tossed that in to see if I could get a few more points off. I'm at 1.023, which is drinkable, but not what I was shooting for.

Overall though - it taste like beer. Not GF beer - just beer. I don't generally drink GF beer, but the ones I've had have had were all obviously "Not beer". I'm not sure I could pick this brew out of a lineup that way.

 

[glutarded-chris]

I now have a refractometer on order! I will have to wait a few weeks to free up a keg to try another batch.

I have had good luck with using about double what you used for bittering hops. For my taste I have settled on the following for a 5 gallon batch (5.5 gal pitching volume):
- bittering (60min): 6-7 AAU
- flavoring (15min): 3-4 AAU
- Aroma (0min): 6-7 AAU
- Dry Hop: 1 to 1.5 oz

I googled the yeast you used and in the process I think I found out that I have been underpitching all this time! Looks like I should be using 2 packets (11.5 g each) of dry yeast instead of one for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[billl]

Results, notes and conclusions:


OG 1.063
FG 1.022

It only dropped 1 more point. I kegged it and decide to add a little cold brewed coffee to balance the sweetness a bit. That made a big improvement in the overall balance.

Color - on the light end of brown, but within style. Forms a decent while head when poured but it doesn't last long. Aroma has fruits, coffee, a little caramel. Carbonation brought all the belgian candy flavors to the forefront. Tastes more like a dubbel base - a little sweet, biscuit, fruity. Doesn't have any roast or nut flavors. The "popcorn" smell from roasting isn't found in the final product at all.

Overall, it's beer. Not great beer, but beer. For the next attempt, I definitely will change some stuff up. It needs some roast character and more color. I finally got a response from Grouse on Friday, so I'm going to try some of their roasted grains - crystal and chocolate for sure. This batch was way too much belgian candy sugar. Also, that yeast was a nice fruity english version, but the attenuation was horrible - especially given how much simple sugar was in there. On the plus side, I found out my friend can drink omission with no issues, so I think I'll be safe using whitelabs yeast and clarity-ferm. That opens the yeast options considerably.

 

[billl]

Since I made comments critical of Grouse co in this thread, I thought I should update. They eventually responded and said my request was delayed to computer glitch. Oh well. It was too late for that batch, but I decided to give them another chance for the next one. I sent another request and it was answer in a timely manner with a friendly response. They processed my order quickly and it shipped within a day of me making payment.

And as luck would have it, I've got some millet left over from the prior order, so I can do a side by side comparison for taste, aroma, color.

 

[billl]

Brewed batch #2 today - stout. Changed the mash schedule up a bit hoping to fix some of the issues from last time. Hoping to finish much drier and to get some real roast flavor.

Recipe
68% malted white millet
8% chocolate roasted millet
8% flaked oats
6% light crystal millet
6% medium roasted millet
3% roasted buckwheat
EKG @60 and @10 to 43IBU

Adjusted water to hit mash ph
Milled grains at 0.022 - over twice as wide a gap as before = much less flour

New schedule
100F - 20 minutes 1.62 thickness
130F - 15 minute 1.76 thickness
Decant liquid - add back boiling water
140F - 20 min
156F - 15 min
Boil - 10min
Cool, add back decanted liquids
140F - 50min at 2.17 thickness
156F - 15min
Drained - then single batch sparge - both much easier with a courser milling

I got the same extract potential - 36points/lb/gallon. I expected the efficiency to drop with the courser grind, but it looks like you just need to crack it since its already so small.

The grouse malts seemed to match the listed color. The white millet was a bit more neutral than the red. It didn't seem to have that slight corn note. (although my wife immediately said "burnt popcorn" when she tried the medium roast millet). My favorite tasting grain was the roasted buckwheat. It has a distinct nutty and biscuit flavor that would go well in most dark brews or english pales. The chocolate was more like a roasted barley than a chocolate taste. A little coffee, but mostly just roasted/bitter. No real chocolate notes. The "crystal" had some caramel and a touch of sweetness, but it was more like a caramunich than a normal crystal.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Can you share some more about the recipe, hops FG etc. I am planning to attempt an oatmeal stout so I am interested in your advice after this. I will probably use some D180 candy syrup so interested if you did.
How much grain did you use and how much wart were you able to collect?
Why did you raise temp at the very end rather than just leaving it down at 140F range?


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[billl]

My only prior attempt st GF beer wasn't that good, so I'm not sure I should be giving out any recipe advice. Anyway, I had a test batch size of 1.5 gallons. I collected 2.5 gallons of wort pre-boil and boiled off 1 gallon. OG = 1.065. A bit high for an oatmeal stout. I was expecting to get a lower extract with the courser grind.


Recipe - all malts from Grouse
68% malted white millet = 2.5lb
8% chocolate roasted millet = 5oz
8% flaked oats = 5oz
6% light crystal millet =3.6oz
6% medium roasted millet = 3.6oz
3% roasted buckwheat = 2oz

0.5 oz east kent goldings @60
0.5 oz east kent goldings @10

I didn't use any candi sugar in this batch. I tried getting color with dark syrup in the last batch, but it lacked the roast flavor I wanted.

The last temp rise was just a final alpha rest to see if there were any more sugars left to convert. I don't think there were since my mash gravity didn't increase during that step. Since it was a relatively thin mash, I wasn't sure if the Beta would denature before it finished, but it seems to have done the job.

I'll report back once the yeast do their thing.

 

[KatoBaggins]

Well, how did this turn out? I've been wanting to do something like this for my wife, who likes dark beers but can't have them since discovering her severe gluten intolerance. (She has a slight reaction to Omission, it's that bad.)

 

[billl]

This batch was a mixed bag. I think the recipe is pretty solid. Nice roasted flavor and no weird twangs. It needs something for better head retention, but the flavor is there. The professionally roasted malts are far superior to my DIY efforts.

The problem with it is my process. It stopped at 1.023 and that is way to heavy for a dry stout. I think the mash schedule needs some work. All my attempts have ended with higher than desired FG. I bought some beta enzyme to use with the next batch, so hopefully that will do the trick.

 

[Legume]

When I have had batches stall out above 1.020, I have added a little beta amylase (AMG-300)to the fermentor. This has worked out well, and dropped these stuborn batches down to 1.015...whitch is a big flavor improvement (I do not like sweet beer).

I would not do this if I planned to bottle and store the beer long term, as the amylase is still active and could slowly free up more sugars and create bottle bombs.

so far I have rescued 2 batches this way, that would have otherwise been dumped.
Its not ideal, but in a pinch I would not hesitate to do it again.