Getting Chico yeast below 1.010 on IPAs

[kchomebrew]

Looking for some answers on how to drop a FG below 1.010 on an IPA (OG range of 1.060 to 1.070) with a Chico strain. The lowest I've ever been able to get it is to 1.010 and that was with a 66F pitch, and primary ferment at 68F and then increased to 72F for the last 5 to 7 days. Most of the IPAs I brew seem to cease at 1.012. I've tried mashing at ranges of 148F to 152F and it seems to only make a difference of a point or 2 on the FG. I've even used table sugar in the boil and no real difference. Fermentation temps I use are generally pitched at 64F-66F and I usually let the fermentation temp sit at 68F and then finish off around 70F to 72F. I've experimented with all kinds of fermentation temp ranges on the Chico strain from 64F to 72F and have obtained final products in the FG range of 1.010 to 1.014. I've used US05 (pitched dry, tried rehydrating also), WLP 001 and WY 1056 with starters and without starters and using 3 vials per 5 gal. batch (always getting it to close to or above 250 billion cell count). I also use WY Nutrient in my boil. Also, for what it's worth, when using 3 vials (no starter) per batch on direct pitch, I see no difference from when I use a starter. Also, same thing when I direct pitch two dry packets of US05. I've compared side by side on batches and I'm damn near convinced that direct pitching two packets of US05 to 5 gal. produces the same quality beer as a liquid yeast starters. Just my experience, but I'm sure there are other opinions out there.

So here's my question. What are some of the commercial breweries out there doing to get FG down to levels like 1.006 (Societe The Pupil gets theirs down to 1.006...how in the world) ? Do I need to add table sugar to the primary after a couple days of fermenting ? Do I need to use Servomyces capsules from White Labs, or is there some other nutrient out there I'm not using ?

Also, I've used Conan yeast and WY 1318 and I can't seem to get the FG below 1.014 (sometimes as high as 1.016). I can't understand how The Alchemist is working Conan down to 1.010 on Heady Topper.

At the very least, I thought this thread might create some useful dialog for all of us / resource on how to get those FG's down on IPAs for a nice crisp/dry finish.

 

[g-star]

I would suggest the following:

-Keep SG at or below 1.065
-Grist of all base malt and up to 10% sugar...NO crystal malt
-Mash at 145F for 75-90min
-Use pure oxygen to get O2 levels around 12-14ppm (air won't cut it).
-Pitch > 1M cells/ml/*Plato
-Pitch cool and ferment around 68F at high krausen, increase to 72F just as krausen begins to fall.

 

[kchomebrew]

I would suggest the following:



-Keep SG at or below 1.065

-Grist of all base malt and up to 10% sugar...NO crystal malt

-Mash at 145F for 75-90min

-Use pure oxygen to get O2 levels around 12-14ppm (air won't cut it).

-Pitch > 1M cells/ml/*Plato

-Pitch cool and ferment around 68F at high krausen, increase to 72F just as krausen begins to fall.

All things I've done. I've used a 2 row and 10% wheat malt on an ipa that came in around 1.064. . Aerate with pure O2 and my ferm temps all match what you suggest. Can't get it below 1.010. You were able to get it down to sub 1.010 ? I'm just curious how some commercial breweries are getting to 1.006 territory on a Chico strain.

 

[Yooper]

All things I've done. I've used a 2 row and 10% wheat malt on an ipa that came in around 1.064. . Aerate with pure O2 and my ferm temps all match what you suggest. Can't get it below 1.010. You were able to get it down to sub 1.010 ? I'm just curious how some commercial breweries are getting to 1.006 territory on a Chico strain.

I get 1.007 with a rye IPA recipe by mashing at 148 and using some simple sugar, and WLP001. It certainly is possible, as I've done it routinely when I've wanted to.

I don't normally want to go quite that dry, though, and generally aim for 1.008-1.010 for my IPAs.

 

[thefost]

All things I've done. I've used a 2 row and 10% wheat malt on an ipa that came in around 1.064. . Aerate with pure O2 and my ferm temps all match what you suggest. Can't get it below 1.010. You were able to get it down to sub 1.010 ? I'm just curious how some commercial breweries are getting to 1.006 territory on a Chico strain.

One thing I noticed the couple of times I used slants (although never tried with chico) was that I was getting some of the driest beers I've ever got. Something about stepping up a slant from 10ml -> 80ml -> 250ml ->1L -> 4L got the yeast really going. I'm wondering if it's similar for professional breweries, reusing the same yeast repeatedly and it getting increasingly attenuative.

 

[bobbrews]

Are you absolutely sure your times and temperatures are on point? For Conan, are you certain you are pitching enough cells into highly oxygenated wort? Without a detailed synopsis of your process, it would be difficult to diagnose the cause(s) of the issue.

The grist/water ratio can also influence the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion (thus requiring a longer mash), but ultimately leads to a more fermentable wort because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars.

 

[kchomebrew]

Are you absolutely sure your times and temperatures are on point? For Conan, are you certain you are pitching enough cells into highly oxygenated wort? Without a detailed synopsis of your process, it would be difficult to diagnose the cause(s) of the issue.



The grist/water ratio can also influence the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion (thus requiring a longer mash), but ultimately leads to a more fermentable wort because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars.

Yep. Sure on the times and temps. I calibrated the temp probes on my HERMS. I usually do 1.5 as the grist ratio. I do a 90min mash and mash out/sparge at 168f. But I'm thinking reusing yeast as the prior post noted might be the key. I don't normally do that. I'll usually use fresh vials for starters, etc. might be an opportunity for me there.

Don't get me wrong. 1.010 is a fine FG for an IPA with Chico and 1.016 seems to taste great with Conan based IpAs. Infact I've read quite a bit about most Conan FGs ending up around 1.016. But, I've not been able to dip either of those yeasts under those FGs. Just finding it amazing that some of the commercial Brewers are getting it down as low as they are. Would like to try and see how that tastes on my batches. But that's where my issue is.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I find 001 good to 1.008 without too much work. I use pure o2, mash around 150 and pitch at 1mil/ml/°P. I make extra yeast on each starter and run that out to 10 or generations.

Chico is a beast if you can get all the parameters together.

 

[amcclai7]

Infact I've read quite a bit about most Conan FGs ending up around 1.016.

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/09/culturing-conan-aka-alchemists-heady.html


that's odd. I've always thought that strain was a monster, hence the name. Most reports I've seen say that it routinely attenuates above 80%, sometimes as high as 85% (we're talking sasion territory here) I've only used it on time and I got 81%.

Here's the thing, If you're starting with a big beer, say 1.070, asking your yeast to get down to 1.010 is hoping for 85% attenuation. Thats a lot! A like a dry IPA as well but I've found that IPA's in the 1.012 range, especially if they start big and can handle a huge hop bill, are plenty dry enough.

 

[amcclai7]

You also might want to look into the San Diego Super Yeast. I forget the number.

 

[olotti]

You also might want to look into the San Diego Super Yeast. I forget the number.

I think that's 090 but I'm not 100% on that.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I think that's 090 but I'm not 100% on that.

You are correct.

 

[alewhatcuresyou]

I get down to 1.006 with a good sized starter of WLP001, on beers up to around 1.065 mashed at 149f for 90 min. I seem to get a little better attenuation with wlp001 than with Wyeast 1056 or US-05
I have noticed a big increase in attenuation with a 90 min. boil.
Not sure why the long boil makes the wort more fermentable but it absolutely does.

 

[amcclai7]

I get down to 1.006 with a good sized starter of WLP001, on beers up to around 1.065 mashed at 149f for 90 min. I seem to get a little better attenuation with wlp001 than with Wyeast 1056 or US-05
I have noticed a big increase in attenuation with a 90 min. boil.
Not sure why the long boil makes the wort more fermentable but it absolutely does.

That's odd. You would think that a long boil, if anything, might caramelize the wort slightly and make it less fermentable.

 

[Weezy]

Are you chasing a number or are you saying your beer isn't dry enough or doesn't taste the way you want? does it not taste good? you cold use 50% table sugar and mash at 142 or 90 minutes, and get it bone dry.... it may taste like hell, but it'll be below 1.010. Is the 1.010 beer 'bad'?

Anyway, to dry it out, as was said, eliminate all crystal and dextrin malts first and use 3-10% sugar. Mash low, 148. Start with a low percentage of sugar for a given recipe and add more to get to the desired dryness. Adjusting your water profile with gypsum actually enhances the dryness as well. You can still use up to 3% crystal or so, you'll just need to use more sugar to offset the dextrins.

 

[kchomebrew]

Are you chasing a number or are you saying your beer isn't dry enough or doesn't taste the way you want? does it not taste good? you cold use 50% table sugar and mash at 142 or 90 minutes, and get it bone dry.... it may taste like hell, but it'll be below 1.010. Is the 1.010 beer 'bad'?



Anyway, to dry it out, as was said, eliminate all crystal and dextrin malts first and use 3-10% sugar. Mash low, 148. Start with a low percentage of sugar for a given recipe and add more to get to the desired dryness. Adjusting your water profile with gypsum actually enhances the dryness as well. You can still use up to 3% crystal or so, you'll just need to use more sugar to offset the dextrins.

No, nothing is bad about my ipAs with fg hitting 1.010 range. Just want to see if I can improve further upon it by ratcheting lower to between 1.006-1.008. My inspiration for this is Societe's IPA The Pupil which finishes at 1.006. There is a crispness to the finish that is unlike any other IPA out there and is like to emulate that.

I'm getting between 300 and 350ppm on sulfate profile and about 100ppm on Ca and about 75 on Cl. But other items you mention are great advice. Thanks !

 

[Hopper5000]

I got a beer down to 1.008 from 1.100 with wlp001. I used only 2 row, mashed at 148 and used about 11% sugar.

 

[thefost]

On a unrelated project I've been emailing some breweries about their fermentation temps. Everyone who is using chico is fermenting at 68 degrees, including Societe, so I'd stick with that.

I'm think going to try the pupil clon. I'll step up a WLP001 starter with nutrients, mash at 148 for 100 minutes, boil for 100 minutes, add more nutrients, ferment 68F, perhaps do it under 3-5 psi pressure, and see where that gets me.

 

[kchomebrew]

On a unrelated project I've been emailing some breweries about their fermentation temps. Everyone who is using chico is fermenting at 68 degrees, including Societe, so I'd stick with that.



I'm think going to try the pupil clon. I'll step up a WLP001 starter with nutrients, mash at 148 for 100 minutes, boil for 100 minutes, add more nutrients, ferment 68F, perhaps do it under 3-5 psi pressure, and see where that gets me.

Nice. Keep me update on the outcome.

 

[adrock430]

If your not using crystal, mashing low, and using O2, I'd strongly suspect pitch rates.

Use s-o5 as your Chico strain, it's more attenuative than 001 and 1056. Brew an APA with one pack and re-pitch 500 mls/1 pint unwashed cake into the new IPA, and I bet you crack 1.008

 

[IslandLizard]

If your not using crystal, mashing low, and using O2, I'd strongly suspect pitch rates.

Use s-o5 as your Chico strain, it's more attenuative than 001 and 1056. Brew an APA with one pack and re-pitch 500 mls/1 pint unwashed cake into the new IPA, and I bet you crack 1.008

Not sure about the pint of raw yeast cake, that depends on how clean your wort transfer is, but a decent estimate of cell count with repitching slurry per Mr.Malty should get you there.

The essence is repitching, I've gotten better attenuation and cleaner beer after US-05 has done one round.

Another tweak that may help is adding the sugar after primary has mostly completed, say after 5-7 days. Fewer fusel alcohols and byproducts that way. The yeast is also more acclimated after having been fed more complex sugars first (maltose). I'd keep it at 66° until the sugar has fermented out and then ramp up to 69/71 to condition, followed by dry hopping.

 

[tgmartin000]

Mash longer, try 2 hours, and skip the mash out. And what everyone else said. Is your hydrometer calibrated?

 

[kchomebrew]

Doing a DIPA this weekend and hope to break past 1.010. Using 10% corn sugar in the boil as mentioned by a few. Plan is to mash at 145f for 60m and then ramp to 154f/hold for 30m and mash out 168f. I'll do all my other usual items and then plan to split 10 gal and use 4 packs us05 direct dry pitch on one batch and doing a starter with wlp090 to get me above 260billion cells on the other one. Want to see which one is more attenuating. Ferm schedule will be pitch at 64f and ramp and hold at 68f for 9 days and then raise to 70f for 4 days and then will take a reading. If it's under 1.010 I'll cold crash to 50f, dump yeast and trub and then Ramp back to 70f and start adding dry hops. We will see how this goes.

 

[JordanKnudson]

I think someone else already said something to this effect, but you mentioned having a 1.064 IPA finish out at 1.010. That's roughly 84.5% apparent attenuation, where the average for the wlp001 is listed at 73-80% and wy1056 is listed at 73-77% (not sure why the difference). I'm not saying it isn't possible to get even higher attenuation, but you're already getting more than is expected from your yeast. Perhaps if your goal is truly just a FG under 1.010, a lower OG is the answer.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

260 mil cells looks like for a 6 gal batch. Probably want more around 400-500. If you want it to go that low I'd start with 1.25mil/ml/°P. Brewers friend has around good calculator for yeast pitching. I'm planning on pitching around 980 bil for a 19 Plato 11 gal batch next week. And 1100bil for a 21.5 Plato dipa after that.

 

[kchomebrew]

I think someone else already said something to this effect, but you mentioned having a 1.064 IPA finish out at 1.010. That's roughly 84.5% apparent attenuation, where the average for the wlp001 is listed at 73-80% and wy1056 is listed at 73-77% (not sure why the difference). I'm not saying it isn't possible to get even higher attenuation, but you're already getting more than is expected from your yeast. Perhaps if your goal is truly just a FG under 1.010, a lower OG is the answer.

Totally understand your point. That said there are some excellent iPas out there with the same og of 1.064 or higher getting down past 1.010. I've tried them and I like the dry crispness. So trying to emulate that.


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[kchomebrew]

260 mil cells looks like for a 6 gal batch. Probably want more around 400-500. If you want it to go that low I'd start with 1.25mil/ml/°P. Brewers friend has around good calculator for yeast pitching. I'm planning on pitching around 980 bil for a 19 Plato 11 gal batch next week. And 1100bil for a 21.5 Plato dipa after that.

Yeah. 260billion is for a 6 gal batch. I'll probably have more than that though. I'm splitting a 12 gal. batch with us05 and wlp090.


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[JordanKnudson]

Totally understand your point. That said there are some excellent iPas out there with the same og of 1.064 or higher getting down past 1.010. I've tried them and I like the dry crispness. So trying to emulate that.

That's fair enough. I wish I had a better practical answer for you. I see that lots of folks have posted more "try this, try that" advice than me, so perhaps you'll find some good advice in there! Best of luck!

 

[grathan]

I don't measure FG so prolly not too much help, but I think there is a difference between table sugar (sucrose) and corn sugar in the yeast ability to digest them. Also you haven't discussed your oxygenation process or your starting yeast's health. Sure adding wyeast blend to the boil is great, but what about the starter. You can't compare pitching 3 vials vs. making a starter anyways. You also need to mention maltster and recipe if you're serious about FG.

+1 to adding sugar after ferment has subsided.

Also experimenting with clarity ferm might be worthwhile. It can give the perception of a drier beer.


I wonder if anybody measures OG of their stirred starter... I wonder if a forced suspension and continual oxygen supply to Chico would ferment that much lower.

 

[Weezy]

I think someone else already said something to this effect, but you mentioned having a 1.064 IPA finish out at 1.010. That's roughly 84.5% apparent attenuation, where the average for the wlp001 is listed at 73-80% and wy1056 is listed at 73-77% (not sure why the difference). I'm not saying it isn't possible to get even higher attenuation, but you're already getting more than is expected from your yeast. Perhaps if your goal is truly just a FG under 1.010, a lower OG is the answer.

If you dump a pack of US-05 in sugar water, you'll get 99% attenuation. The critical factor is fermentability of the wort. The att % they gave are simply based on typical worts. The yeast are good until you hit their abv ceiling, and even then you can cheat by over pitching and letting the yeast consume like mad and attenuate before the alcohol gets the chance to kill them.

 

[JordanKnudson]

If you dump a pack of US-05 in sugar water, you'll get 99% attenuation. The critical factor is fermentability of the wort. The att % they gave are simply based on typical worts. The yeast are good until you hit their abv ceiling, and even then you can cheat by over pitching and letting the yeast consume like mad and attenuate before the alcohol gets the chance to kill them.

Yes, but the point is that we're dumping it into wort, not sugar water. I get that what you're saying is that the way to get the FG lower is to limit the amount of unfermentable sugars in solution (mash low, no crystal, etc). I wasn't really giving super practical advice here, just pointing out that he IS in fact getting better-than-average attenuation of his *wort.*

 

[D-Train]

What are you trying to accomplish with the mashout? I ask because it seems contradictory to your stated goal.

 

[whenithitsyourlips]

I've stopped mashing out with 001 and have noticed better attenuation. 1.008 is standard fg for most of my pale ales/IPAs now.

 

[kchomebrew]

So recently kegged the DIPA I brewed. Mashed at 145F for 70 min. and stepped to 154F for last 20 min. Recipe also included approx. 10% corn sugar addition to the boil. Created WLP080 (san diego super yeast) starters with 02 on stir plates - appropriate amount p/Mr. Malty. OG was 1.080. FG reading ended up at 1.010. I'm satisfied with that. 87% attenuation is pretty amazing ! I'll be doing an IPA in the next week or so and will follow a similar schedule. OG should be around 1.061 and would like to see it get down to 1.007/1.008 range

 

[BobBailey]

Lower mash temperature with a longer rest, proper PH and sufficient calcium, simple sugars, higher yielding grains, a proper pitch of healthy, high attenuating yeast, enough yeast nutrient and good aeration/oxygenation. Not necessarily in that order. All of the above if you like a really dry beer with a good finish.