gelatin finings?

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I have not used gelatin in a keg, but use it regularly in my secondary about 3 days before I keg and have never had a beer jello issue.

http://www.reedbrewing.com/2011/07/down-at-delta-jello.html

Whenever you use gelatin in a keg, make sure to draw off a couple ounces every few days until it is carbonated. The gelatin makes a big glob of beer jello at the bottom of the keg. If you don't move the beer, it clogs the dip tube.
 
Well, I used knox gelatin in my keg and it's amazingly clear. Love this stuff. After I bottled a few from the keg and shared, my buddy wants to try it too. The problem is that he can't cold crash and he doesn't keg. Will gelatin have any effect at room temperature?

how do you bottle your beer from the keg?

So when you add gelatin from the keg, you don't have any problem with getting all that gelatin in your glass?
 
And yes, it is okay to add it at room temperature. That is the only way I have done it and thats why I asked about the kegging method, I have never done it before.
 
how do you bottle your beer from the keg?

So when you add gelatin from the keg, you don't have any problem with getting all that gelatin in your glass?

I used the Bowie Bottler and the complement that Irrenarzt sells.

The first pint or pint and a half was a ton of sediment, but after that, I get awesome pours...crystal clear. I did it to a Citra IPA and it's probably my best beer to date...especially on a clarity level.
 
I used the Bowie Bottler and the complement that Irrenarzt sells.

The first pint or pint and a half was a ton of sediment, but after that, I get awesome pours...crystal clear. I did it to a Citra IPA and it's probably my best beer to date...especially on a clarity level.

I borrowed one of those from Claphasma last night, trying it out one my entry into the Pilsner Urquell contest tomorrow.
 
I borrowed one of those from Claphasma last night, trying it out one my entry into the Pilsner Urquell contest tomorrow.

It's pretty awesome. If he has the instructions, make sure you follow them. I tried it first without reading the instructions, probably overlubed it, and made a mess. It worked perfectly the next two times.
 
oh my god. I just did it, but I'm afraid I ruined my beer! gelatin solution smelled like rotten pig, awful!

anyone had similar experience?
 
400d said:
oh my god. I just did it, but I'm afraid I ruined my beer! gelatin solution smelled like rotten pig, awful!

anyone had similar experience?

Nooo definitely not. What brand was the gelatin?
 
It's pretty awesome. If he has the instructions, make sure you follow them. I tried it first without reading the instructions, probably overlubed it, and made a mess. It worked perfectly the next two times.

Thanks, he gave me the instructions and I'm planning on watching the youtube video in that thread as well. I'll practice tonight and then just fill the bottles right before heading to the competition tomorrow.
 
Nooo definitely not. What brand was the gelatin?


hm, I don't think a brand from Bosnia and Herzegovina would mean anything to you :D

but it was regular white odorless gelatin used for making cakes and whatever.... It's based on pigs not cows. :D

It smelled horrible! As If I entered the stinkiest barn ever with dead animals all over. :confused:
 
oh my god. I just did it, but I'm afraid I ruined my beer! gelatin solution smelled like rotten pig, awful!

anyone had similar experience?

Yeah it always smells like that for me. I use knox. Added some to a Pale Ale last night and it smelled horrible.
 
so how is it possible that such horrible smell doesn't affect the beer at all?? don't get it...
 
So that bottling wand you speak of, I have it to and I have not had any luck with it. Everytime I use it to bottle the beers are flat within a few days or next morning. I don't know what I am doing wrong, If anyone has advice please PM me.
 
So that bottling wand you speak of, I have it to and I have not had any luck with it. Everytime I use it to bottle the beers are flat within a few days or next morning. I don't know what I am doing wrong, If anyone has advice please PM me.

Probably not the right thread to discuss that. Try here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f41/bottling-wand-perlick-525-75-aka-bowie-bottler-228344/

I've only used it twice. Once to fill bottles that were consumed within a couple hours and the other time the bottles were consumed 2 days later. Both times, it was carbed just slightly less than if I was pulling from the tap and drinking.

Based on your procedure from the other thread, I think you are leaving too much headspace and you need to chill your bottles first. I would fill right to the stopper and put the bottles in the freezer for 10-20min beforehand.
 
Ok I will test it and see how it goes if you find out anything let me know there's plenty of time left only started a new Bach last night
 
Probably not the right thread to discuss that. Try here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f41/bottling-wand-perlick-525-75-aka-bowie-bottler-228344/

I've only used it twice. Once to fill bottles that were consumed within a couple hours and the other time the bottles were consumed 2 days later. Both times, it was carbed just slightly less than if I was pulling from the tap and drinking.

Based on your procedure from the other thread, I think you are leaving too much headspace and you need to chill your bottles first. I would fill right to the stopper and put the bottles in the freezer for 10-20min beforehand.

Thanks
 

No problem. The first time I filled, I went all the way to the stopper and the bottle was filled more than my bottle conditioned beers (less headspace). I thought it looked weird, so I didn't fill it as much the next time. I think the first beer was better carbed.
 
How bad did I screw this one up:

I added Knox gelatin to the secondary. I heated the water (1cup) to about 120-130, added 1/2 packet of Knox, dissolved it by stirring constantly, and kept is on and off the heat for about 10 minutes. I let it cool to about 90, and added it on top in my secondary, swirled it around about and put it in my swamp cooler with some ice bottles (60ish).

So, everything I read said to get the knox to 170 but do not boil. I was so afraid of boiling I only got it to about 130. Is this bad?
 
taurean said:
How bad did I screw this one up:

I added Knox gelatin to the secondary. I heated the water (1cup) to about 120-130, added 1/2 packet of Knox, dissolved it by stirring constantly, and kept is on and off the heat for about 10 minutes. I let it cool to about 90, and added it on top in my secondary, swirled it around about and put it in my swamp cooler with some ice bottles (60ish).

So, everything I read said to get the knox to 170 but do not boil. I was so afraid of boiling I only got it to about 130. Is this bad?

You should be fine, I don't even heat my water prior to adding gelatin, I use a cup of previously boiled water from tea kettle its normally room temp.

Sent from GT-I9100M
 
WTF am I doing wrong? I let 1 tbl bloom in 1 cup of hot water, heated it to like 150 degrees then let it cool and the finings stuck to the bottom of my pan.
 
Dumb question, but did you stir it well while it was heating up? It shouldn't matter too much, but that could be part of the problem. I noticed that the bottom of my pan had a light coating but that dissipated with stirring. Additionally, try adding the finings to room temperature water to let them bloom. Lastly, ensure that the final product is not cooed below room temp until it goes into the beer. Hope that helps.
 
WTF am I doing wrong? I let 1 tbl bloom in 1 cup of hot water, heated it to like 150 degrees then let it cool and the finings stuck to the bottom of my pan.

this happened to me last week. I think it was due to not stirring and letting it cool too much.
 
I followed the instructions in this thread: Crash cooled, added 1tbls gelatin in 160 cup of water to carboy, swirled it and put it back in the fridge. It's been 36hrs and it appears that there is a layer of gelatin on top of the beer. I thought I read 24hrs and it should be good to go, or is it longer? Also, it is a stout that I am doing this to so it is really hard to see if it has worked. Anyone ever do this to a stout and what should I look for to see if it is completed so I can rack it to the keg. I just wanted to make sure I didn't screw this up since this is the first time I have done this. Thanks.
 
I've done this three times now to lighter ales, but always when they were already cooled in the keg and then stayed refrigerated. 36-48 hrs usually did the trick. I tried this method once in a conical fermenter at room temp and it seemed like the gelatin was beaded up and floating around in the beer. So, I'm not sure if the cool temp is an essential element.
Re-reading your thread, it sounds like it's still refrigerated right? Worst case scenario, you rack the beer to another container, preferably using a mesh bag to filter/catch the gelatin and go from there. Most people I've heard don't bother with filtering stouts. Even if you hold a pint of Guinness up to a spotlight, it's still hard to see through it....but you already know that. I'd try to re-rack and if you have the time, let it sit for a week to see if it clarifies a bit
 
I followed the instructions in this thread: Crash cooled, added 1tbls gelatin in 160 cup of water to carboy, swirled it and put it back in the fridge. It's been 36hrs and it appears that there is a layer of gelatin on top of the beer. I thought I read 24hrs and it should be good to go, or is it longer? Also, it is a stout that I am doing this to so it is really hard to see if it has worked. Anyone ever do this to a stout and what should I look for to see if it is completed so I can rack it to the keg. I just wanted to make sure I didn't screw this up since this is the first time I have done this. Thanks.

Not sure where in the thread it suggested adding gelatin to chilled beer...but doing so will result in instantaneous coagulation of the gelatine. It needs to be mixed into room temperature beer, prior to chilling.

Think about it...liquid gelatin turns to..."jello" in the fridge. ;)
 
I've done this three times now to lighter ales, but always when they were already cooled in the keg and then stayed refrigerated. 36-48 hrs usually did the trick. I tried this method once in a conical fermenter at room temp and it seemed like the gelatin was beaded up and floating around in the beer. So, I'm not sure if the cool temp is an essential element.
Re-reading your thread, it sounds like it's still refrigerated right? Worst case scenario, you rack the beer to another container, preferably using a mesh bag to filter/catch the gelatin and go from there. Most people I've heard don't bother with filtering stouts. Even if you hold a pint of Guinness up to a spotlight, it's still hard to see through it....but you already know that. I'd try to re-rack and if you have the time, let it sit for a week to see if it clarifies a bit

Well I didn't see your post and I racked it to a keg and started carbing. Now I have tapped off maybe 1/2 a pint a day for 4 days to see how the carbing is going and each one have some gelatin pieces in the bottom. The carboy seemed to have a layer of gelatin on the bottom when I racked so I am not sure if I sucked up a little loose gelatin that was floating on the top. Anyway, should I keep tapping off a little each day to get all the gelatin out or should I try and rack it to another keg even though it has already been carbing? Any help would be appreciated because I don't want to trash this batch.
 
I know that this thread has been quiet for a long time but I thought I'd add some information that was helpful to me. I'm going by memory but this info comes from "New Lager Brewing" by Greg Noonan.

He says to mix 1 gram of unflavored gelatin with 2 ounces of cold water for every gallon of beer that you are fining. So for a 5 gallon batch mix 5 grams of gelatin in 10 ounces of cold water. Let the mixture hydrate for an hour. Next, heat the mixture up to 150 -160 degrees to dissolve the gelatin. Do not let the mixture cool below 120 degrees before adding to your beer. After adding it to the beer, gently stir the beer to mix in the gelatin solution for 2 to 3 minutes. He says that the beer will clear in about 14 days at 50 degrees.
 
I've only done this once (my first kegged beer) but it seemed to work very well. After cold crashing in secondary for 48 hours I did the following:

1 Tbsp of knox gelatin in 1/2 cup cold water, covered and let sit for 30 min. Boiled 1/2 cup of water in the microwave. Dumped hot water into cold water gelatin mixture. Gelatin appeared to instantly dissolve, no additional mixing seemed necessary.
Poured gelatin mixture into sanitized keg.
Racked beer on top.
Sealed, added CO2 and put in kegertor.
1 week later, I opened up the tap until beer was clear (about 1 cup). Had a nice layer of gelatin/sediment. Beer is crystal clear.
 
Well I didn't see your post and I racked it to a keg and started carbing. Now I have tapped off maybe 1/2 a pint a day for 4 days to see how the carbing is going and each one have some gelatin pieces in the bottom. The carboy seemed to have a layer of gelatin on the bottom when I racked so I am not sure if I sucked up a little loose gelatin that was floating on the top. Anyway, should I keep tapping off a little each day to get all the gelatin out or should I try and rack it to another keg even though it has already been carbing? Any help would be appreciated because I don't want to trash this batch.

Your beer is doing fine as is. Some sedimentation will occur in a chilled keg, no matter how clear the beer appeared out of the fermenter. If your dip tube is resting directly on the bottom of the keg, it will continue to pick up any sediment. Soda kegs were designed to pick up every last ounce of syrup and as such, the dip tubes typically touch the bottom of the keg. Remove your dip tube, put it over your knee and give it a sharper bend to elevate the bottom about 1/2 inch of the bottom. This will help you avoid that final layer of sediment. If you have a straight dip tube, simply cut off about a 1/4 inch or so.
 
I read about 4 of the 10 pages and didn't see an answer to my question, so....

I don't use a secondary so can I add it to the primary say 4 days before bottling and bottle condition at 70? Will the gelatin do anything at that temp?

If i bottle condition for my 3 normal weeks and then cold crash the bottles for a few days before drinking will that work???
 
So, everything I read said to get the knox to 170 but do not boil. I was so afraid of boiling I only got it to about 130. Is this bad?
Boiling somehow destroying the function of gelatin is a common misconception that people who are largely unfamiliar with protein science tend to have. As a molecular scientist who works in protein chemistry in the Bay Area, I can tell you outright that boiling the gelatin will not affect the performance. This is due in large part to two things:

1) Gelatin is simply hydrolyzed collagen, and is often produced by boiling source material rich in collagen in a mild acid to encourage hydrolysis. Boiling is an actual step that speeds up hydrolysis that many manufacturers use.

2) Collagen, and therefore gelatin, is a protein/peptide based material. So, while boiling (or even heating to 180 F) would affect the structure, the structure is not what results in the clearing effect seen with the use of gelatin as a fining agent.
The approximate amino acid composition of gelatin is: glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%, alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%, hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%. The clearing effect of gelatin arises due to the fact that, at the pH of beer, the collagen is highly positively charged, allowing it to bind to negatively charged molecules/cells. The positive charge arises NOT because of structure, but because:
- the pH is slightly higher than the pKa of side chains (carboxylic acids) on aspartic acid and glutamic acid, making them negatively charged, but only slightly so, as the pH of beer is only slightly higher than the pKa of these acid sidechains.
- the pH is significantly lower than the pKa of sidechains (primary and secondary amines) on proline, hydroxyproline, arginine, lysine, and hydroxylysine, making them very positively charged. The positive charge resulting from these residues is not only enough to offset the small amount of negative charge on the glutamic and aspartic acids, but it is sufficiently high enough to give a large positive charge to the overall gelatin molecules.

The remainder of the amino acids in the structure have primarily hydrophobic side chains, and do not result in contribution to charge.

So, if you have been boiling your gelatin, fear not. It should have no affect on the ability of gelatin to fine your beer. The pH of your beer (it will be more acidic than in the kettle if you fermented at all) and the temperature at which you store the beer after adding the finings (< 40F prefferably) are the 2 most important factors. Also, I would only cool the dissolved gelatin to ~70 F and then add. Cool it down too much before adding to beer, and you'll end up with jello.
 
Here's a question based on that then. While I never thought that the detrimental effect of boiling was believed to be a chemical reaction, I had always perceived it to be a structual detriment. In that by either
a) Letting it become jello, it seals away part of the structure and thus becomes less effect than if the entire liquid spreads out. (Less surface area).
or that
b) The gelatin would somehow chunk up and become a more dense mass than a floating more liquidy mass and again cause less surface area which means either a slower reaction or less effect due to the unavailable reaction area.

I haven't bothered testing it, and I feel that putting unflavored, unsweetened jello to any use would be almost pointless, except for a low cal snack or some sort of decoration, usually around halloween.

I think people were also somehow worried that the structual change would have dispersed thoughout the beer yet could have been of a sufficient quantity to cause the entire volume to become a semi-solid liquid, but there just isn't enough gelatin when properly used.

Does this have any bearing on any effects?


And yes, people do put the gelatin in the primary, then draw the beer (but not the gelatin) into the bottling bucket and then bottle. (Or keg.)
 
Here's a question based on that then. While I never thought that the detrimental effect of boiling was believed to be a chemical reaction, I had always perceived it to be a structual detriment. In that by either
a) Letting it become jello, it seals away part of the structure and thus becomes less effect than if the entire liquid spreads out. (Less surface area).
or that
b) The gelatin would somehow chunk up and become a more dense mass than a floating more liquidy mass and again cause less surface area which means either a slower reaction or less effect due to the unavailable reaction area.

I haven't bothered testing it, and I feel that putting unflavored, unsweetened jello to any use would be almost pointless, except for a low cal snack or some sort of decoration, usually around halloween.

I think people were also somehow worried that the structual change would have dispersed thoughout the beer yet could have been of a sufficient quantity to cause the entire volume to become a semi-solid liquid, but there just isn't enough gelatin when properly used.

Does this have any bearing on any effects?


And yes, people do put the gelatin in the primary, then draw the beer (but not the gelatin) into the bottling bucket and then bottle. (Or keg.)

I generally boil 1.5 g of gelatin in what turns out to be a final volume of 100 ml. That is 1.5 % (w/w) gelatin. This WILL gel if cooled to 36-38 F. However, it remains a liquid at 70 F, and when added to 5 gallons (~19,000 ml) of beer, the % w/w gelatin is reduced from 1.5% to 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin. This 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin solution in beer will not gel at 36-38F, but it's highly positive charge will pull negatively charged proteins/cells out of solution, precipitate, and fall to the bottom. The reason gelatin clarifies is because gelatin binds to protein bound to other gelatin molecules bound to cells bound to other gelatin molecules, and so on and so forth. Once the aggregates get large enough, they become insoluble, precipitate out of solution, and settle via gravity. Gelatin is a proven clarifier, and is really, really, really cheap, which is why people love it and use it frequently and on all levels from professional brewers to home brewers.

And yes, this can be done in primary, but you certainly would not want to do this if you plan on harvesting yeast from the primary.

And yes again, boiling likely does affect the structure of the gelatin (as I went into detail above), but since the gelatin is already hydrolyzed under heat and it's function is largely unrelated to structure, it shouldn't matter.
 
Biobrewer said:
I generally boil 1.5 g of gelatin in what turns out to be a final volume of 100 ml. That is 1.5 % (w/w) gelatin. This WILL gel if cooled to 36-38 F. However, it remains a liquid at 70 F, and when added to 5 gallons (~19,000 ml) of beer, the % w/w gelatin is reduced from 1.5% to 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin. This 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin solution in beer will not gel at 36-38F, but it's highly positive charge will pull negatively charged proteins/cells out of solution, precipitate, and fall to the bottom. The reason gelatin clarifies is because gelatin binds to protein bound to other gelatin molecules bound to cells bound to other gelatin molecules, and so on and so forth. Once the aggregates get large enough, they become insoluble, precipitate out of solution, and settle via gravity. Gelatin is a proven clarifier, and is really, really, really cheap, which is why people love it and use it frequently and on all levels from professional brewers to home brewers.

And yes, this can be done in primary, but you certainly would not want to do this if you plan on harvesting yeast from the primary.

And yes again, boiling likely does affect the structure of the gelatin (as I went into detail above), but since the gelatin is already hydrolyzed under heat and it's function is largely unrelated to structure, it shouldn't matter.

Great explaination of how gelatin works. Thanks for taking the time to spell it all out.
 
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