Frozen Fruit additions, and impact on ABV?

[fendersrule]

Hi guys,

I'm about to add 3 pounds of raspberries to a Raspberry Milkshake IPA.

The OG is 1.065. It's been my experience that US-05 likes to take most things down to 1.010 (in general). Hopefully the .3 lbs of lactose and possibly the Raspberries may keep this from going to 1.010.

Here's why I'm mentioning this. I have a home brew competition coming up, and I brewed this specifically for the competition. 1.065 -> 1.010 is 7%. That's the current maximum ABV allowed.

My question is what are 3 lbs of frozen raspberries (made into purree) going to do to the ABV level? Is it going to easily push me over, or will it remain about the same. Not really sure how to calculate the ABV once I add the fruit.

I guess I can measure the puree with the refracto. If it's more than 1.065, then it will have a positive effect on the ABV. But being that the beer is 5 gallons, and the puree will be MUCH less....so probably I already answered my own question....

 

[RPh_Guy]

so probably I already answered my own question....

Yup!

To determine ABV you can calculate the effective OG using a weighted average of the gravity of the volume of juice added by the fruit (total minus the solids) and the wort OG.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks RPH. I'm actually just not going to worry about it and just forget I added the fruits and take the appropriate FG measurement when the time comes.

Question: For the 3lbs frozen berries, what is the best way to inject them into the wort? For this beer, I purposely am fermenting in a bucket (my first time using one for a beer). Should leave a nice and easy wide entry on the top.

I want to for sure "Mash" the berries up to make sure the juices are able to color the beer a deep red.

I suppose what I'll do is take them out of the fridge, smash the hell out of the bags, then simmer them in a pan at 160ish for a few minutes, then just dump them in? Is there any more to it? How clean does the pan need to be? Is clean enough for cooking fine?

 

[day_trippr]

Do not simmer the smashed berrys as that will cause all kinds of pectin issues that will carry into your beer.

Instead, add just enough water to the berry mush to make it "loose", bring it up to 135°F and hold it there for 30 minutes.
From there you can dump the pasteurized mush into a fresh, sanitized bucket and rack your beer on top. Let it sit for a week then rack off the berries...

Cheers!

[edit] alternatively you can treat the mashed berries with campden tablets - iirc one tablet per pound - let sit overnight in a pot covered with cheese cloth or equivalent to let the sulfur dissipate and they're ready to go...

 

[fendersrule]

I'm planning to dump into primary....don't want to rack....This is an IPA...would rather not fuss with adding oxygen...

I've never injected fruit before, so I'd really like some advice for adding to primary (after it cools down).

 

[day_trippr]

Right, totally understand.

I've never fermented in buckets, but the fruit will inspire additional yeast activity, so if you add it at the tail end of active fermentation - still active bubbling - that fresh activity should kick off soon enough to keep some positive CO2 flow going to help flush the fermentor head space. Of course, if you have access to bottled CO2 you could give the fermentor a few blasts through the airlock hole with the lid nearly sealed (last edge left to pop down) to help flush out the head space...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm actually just not going to worry about it and just forget I added the fruits and take the appropriate FG measurement when the time comes.

The berries will likely lower the FG and lower the ABV.

I would heat the berries to 145-150°F for 30 minutes and put the in a mesh bag before adding to the beer. The pan and bag should be as clean as your hot-side brewing equipment.

Campden (sulfite) does not necessarily kill all the microbes and it may cause issues with the subsequent fermentation.

 

[fendersrule]

I feel that I do need to smash the berries at some point. I've seen another brewer follow the recipe but did not smash and the beer was only an amber color. My "Raspberry Milkshake IPA" must be a red color, or it will lose.

So heating the berries unsmashed would require water. I suppose I'll add enough water to where they are mostly submerged in a pan?

The creater of the recipe "smashed" the berries during the simmer phase. His beer was a beautiful maroon red.

Here's the thread/recipe. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/sgd-raspberry-ipa.660688/#post-8761852

 

[day_trippr]

Good link. Confused by ingredients list that says "raspberry extract" but noticed "4 lbs" of it
I suppose 160°F for 10 minutes may actually be equivalent to 135°F for 30 on the pasteurization curve. I'd go with the lower temperature if pectin haze will be any concern for your brew, 160°F if you don't care, save the 20 minutes.

I also see he added the fruit at the tail of initial fermentation, so I'd follow suit given your fermentors.

fwiw, if one takes a look around "raspberry wheat world" campden tablets are actually used quite frequently for sanitizing fruit and preserving its color...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you take a look around at the world of people who actually put sulfite in fermenting beer you'll see many reports of H2S production when the sulfite isn't fully neutralized. Also sulfite does not kill microbes anywhere nearly as well as heat.

 

[fendersrule]

When/how do I smash them?

 

[Calder]

The berries will likely lower the FG and lower the ABV.

I would heat the berries to 145-150°F for 30 minutes

The fruit will lower the alcohol. The solids that you take out of the beer at the end will have more alcohol in them than you created with the added fruit.

You need to get to 140 F to pasteurize. I usually take fruit to 150 - 160. The higher the temp, the quicker it pasteurizes (30 mins for 140, and 5 secs for 160).

If you want find the abv of the finished beer, you can take both an Hydrometer reading and a Refractometer reading. Using on-line tools available, you can determine the effective OG and abv from these two numbers.

 

[day_trippr]

If you take a look around at the world of people who actually put sulfite in fermenting beer you'll see many reports of H2S production when the sulfite isn't fully neutralized.

Nobody suggested putting the campden in fermenting beer...

Cheers!

 

[InspectorJon]

Potato masher.

 

[madscientist451]

My question is what are 3 lbs of frozen raspberries (made into purree) going to do to the ABV level?

I didn't see anything about batch size, its a 5 gallon batch?
Raspberries are mostly water, so with 3 lbs you are adding about 1.25 quarts of water. I don't think you'll go over your limit with that, but if you put your recipe into one of the recipe calculators available, you'll get a better idea of where it will be.
I've added raspberries and other fruit to beer and cider many times and usually have been disappointed with the amount of actual flavor that the fruit provides. If you are entering a competition and disclosing that raspberries are in it, the judges are going to be expecting some raspberry flavor. They may deduct points if they can't detect any.
2-3 lbs or even 4 lbs per gallon may be required, but then you are adding more water and that much fermented fruit may provide an acidic flavor that will need to be balanced by some sweetness.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Nobody suggested putting the campden in fermenting beer...

Cheers!

Leaving it sit overnight doesn't guarantee that all the sulfite "dissipates", especially when high doses are used to attempt sterilization.

 

[fendersrule]

I didn't see anything about batch size, its a 5 gallon batch?
Raspberries are mostly water, so with 3 lbs you are adding about 1.25 quarts of water. I don't think you'll go over your limit with that, but if you put your recipe into one of the recipe calculators available, you'll get a better idea of where it will be.
I've added raspberries and other fruit to beer and cider many times and usually have been disappointed with the amount of actual flavor that the fruit provides. If you are entering a competition and disclosing that raspberries are in it, the judges are going to be expecting some raspberry flavor. They may deduct points if they can't detect any.
2-3 lbs or even 4 lbs per gallon may be required, but then you are adding more water and that much fermented fruit may provide an acidic flavor that will need to be balanced by some sweetness.

It's a 5 gallon batch. Are you sure though? The recipe calls for 4 lbs per 6 gallons. I'm making 5 gallons, so 3lbs seems a safe amount. I've actually heard raspberries are pretty strong in low amounts...unlike blueberries or other fruits.

I think the idea since this is an IPA, isn't to make it "raspberry forward", but to have the hint of raspberry during the backhalf of the taste. I can certainly use more than 3lbs of raspberries, but it doesn't make sense to go more than the recipe's creater of 4lbs (that he used for 6 gallons).

I'd still like to know exactly how to pasteurize and smash the fruit in step-by-step form!

 

[madscientist451]

I'd say go with the recipe and see how it comes out. If you just want a hint of raspberry, 3 lbs should be good.
I don't bother pasteurizing the fruit, I just freeze it, thaw it, mash it up and chuck it in secondary. (rack the beer on top of it) Its not the recommended method, but I haven't had any issues so far.
Another method is to make a tincture by putting the raspberries in a jar with some decent quality vodka. You can get 1/2 gallon mason jars at Walmart.
Strain out the vodka and add at packaging to taste.
This may be the best way to go if you are entering a competition, you can dial in the exact amount of raspberry character/flavor.
Since your recipe calls for 4 lbs or raspberries for 6 gallons, you could split your batch, add 2 lbs of fruit to 3 gallons of beer and use a tincture for the rest and then decide which one you want to enter.

 

[fendersrule]

Yeah, I've heard of people just tossing the fruit in right from the bag--the bag allows you to mash it up before doing so as well. Many have no had issues doing this.

Tincture process I use for habaneros (works well).

 

[fendersrule]

The easiest thing that makes the most sense to me is:

1) Take 3-5 lbs of raspberries out of the freezer.
2) Let them thaw
3) Smash the bags up (easier to do it now than while it's in a pot, but either way works)
4) Pour raspberries (and juice) into a pot on the stove. Fill with enough water so that it has good consistency.
5) heat to 150F for 15 minutes while stirring
6) Cool it.
7) Strain the mix into a sanitized container.
8) Use a sanitized nylon bag for the chunky stuff.
9) Dump both items into primary.

Not sure why that method would suck. It would assure that things are pasteurized and clean. It assures that the maximum amount of "red" is extracted to color the beer. The only thing one MAY want to do for good measure is to way down the nylon bag so that it stays fully submerged. Simply just sticking some silverwear (stainless steel) in the bag may ensure that the bag doesn't float.

 

[fendersrule]

Anyone against that?

 

[Jag75]

FWIW I use 5-6 # of blueberries in my sour. I use frozen bagged berries. Let them thaw out then put into a clean carboy then rack ontop of for 2 weeks. I also do the same with peaches in a peach ale. The fruit does add water and it did lower my abv a tad . I think dried fruit will raise the abv. I've never pasteurized the fruit , maybe I'm lucky but never had a problem. I didnt smash the berries either . The beer was light in color but after 2 weeks the beer sucked out the flavor and color leaving them almost white.

 

[fendersrule]

Sounds like you guys are saying to up the raspberries.

 

[day_trippr]

I am going to take the implied advise and modify my impending raspberry wheat beer to lower the post-boil volume by 2 quarts with a 5 point higher OG to accommodate 4 pounds of mushed pasteurized frozen berries per 5 gallons.

I may dry hop with hibiscus as well. If I decide to do that I will use a warmer mash - 152°F instead of the drying 148°F otherwise (hibiscus is rather tart)...

Cheers!

 

[Jag75]

Love hibiscus. Fixing to do a blackberry , pomegranate and hibiscus mead .

 

[fendersrule]

Honestly, if the bag says “pasteurized” then I see no reason why not just let it thaw, beat the bag up, and just chuck it in (using sanitized nylon bags to keep seeds and such from clogging).

it should be no different than using pasterized fruit juice that many of us ferment and use as additions. Especially those of us that make ciders.

Pasterizing again is starting to not make sense. You could argue that it increases the risk of infection because there will be more handling and other contacts vs just emptying the contents of the bag.

 

[day_trippr]

Hang out around these parts long enough and you'll see all kinds of fruity horror shows
I'm highly risk-adverse, and 30 minutes at 135°F (or less time/higher temperature) is cheap insurance against a dumper.
I don't know what risk is incurred while mashing the berries out in the open (so to speak) but I'm not inclined to find out...


Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

if the bag says “pasteurized”

Does the bag say pasteurized?

 

[fendersrule]

IF it does, why not just pour it in?

the extra process will only INCREASE chance of infection...

 

[RPh_Guy]

IF it does, why not just pour it in?

the extra process will only INCREASE chance of infection...

If it's already pasteurized, then there's no need to pasteurize it again.

 

[fendersrule]

86oz of raspberries.

will need to pasteurize.

 

[fendersrule]

Question:

Will all this mashed fruit "sink" in a Muslin sock, or will it float?

If it floats, is it simple physics that the weight of the object tied to the bag to sink it needs to weight more than the bag/contents itself?

 

[Jag75]

I didnt use a bag but after about 1 week the berries floated to the top. I swirl the fermenter couple times a day . But you could weigh it down to prevent it from floating up.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fruit will float. You can weight it down with a (sanitized) glass or stainless steel object of some kind.

is it simple physics that the weight of the object tied to the bag to sink it needs to weight more than the bag/contents itself?

No.
The fruit floats because CO2 bubbles get trapped inside or otherwise adhere to the fruit pieces.

 

[fendersrule]

Think a bag of marbles from the dollar store should do it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just guessing but I think 0.5-1 pound should be fine.

 

[Jag75]

Think a bag of marbles from the dollar store should do it?

Not sure tbo. Who knows what those are made of , especially if made in china . I've used shot glasses and now use stainless washers

 

[fendersrule]

I would hope that they are made out of glass!

Fermentation as of this morning is now on the down-turn. Still going, but it's lessening. Imagine I'd probably toss everything in tomorrow.

Going with 1lb per gallon. Will let that ferment for a 10 days or so, then will dry hop 5-6 days before bottling.

 

[fendersrule]

Yay. Successful and no hiccups.

 

[fendersrule]

I introduced all that to the wort while it was still pretty worm, probably 130F or so. Should be OK I suppose....raised the temp of 5 gallons from 65 to 68.