Force carbonating at room temp

[crabjoe]

Just got done with my 1st brew and I put it in a Keg to carbonate. I don't have refrigeration space, so I need to do in my basement, which is sitting right at 70 F these days. I looked at the carbonating charts, but they all stop at 65F so what should I do?

For now, I set the regulator at 30psi. I was really shocked at how much CO2 this thing can take. Every time I shock it a bit, it would take CO2.

The beer is what came with the MoorBeer Deluxe kit, Cali Pale Ale, which is suppose to be a Sierra Nevada clone of some type. All I know is that it was delish, when I sampled it last night.

Ok. back to carbonation.. If I leave it 30psi, will that be enough after a week at 69F? My plan is to bottle this batch, so I can take it to the office and to give to a few friends to try.

BTW, why is it so dark? Shouldn't it have been about 1/2 as dark? I did push it through a 1 micron filter too.

 

[Jag75]

To get 2.7 volumes @ 70f you need to set at 32psi. As for the beer being darker then you thought there are a few reasons. It will look darker in your fermenter then your glass. Another reason is that extract kits always tend to be darker then what youd get with all grain. Some people add the LME late to lighten it up. The bad reason for a beer to get dark is oxidation. You should look into close transfers . I try and keep o2 from getting into my beer , especially with hoppy ones. It sounds like the beer taste good and your happy with it so my guess is because it's an extract kit.

 

[mongoose33]

Your beer will look darker in the large fermenter because there is more beer for the light to have to pass through.

So you're kegging it and carbing it, and you're going to bottle it later, presumably right off the keg. Given any thought to how you might do that?

You could go a bit higher in pressure if you want--maybe to 35 or so--but the question you need to answer is this: what volume of CO2 do you want in your beer? If you set it and forget it, I don't think that it'll be done in a week.

What you can do is this: you can attach the gas to the keg, and rock it on your lap back and forth for a few minutes. You'll hear the gas keep going into the keg. The rocking will greatly increase the surface area into which the gas enters the beer, which is why this work. It'll speed up the process quite a bit.

And FWIW: this is your first brew. I admire your willingness to do some things that most new brewers wait to try until later in their brewing career. However, realize a couple things: the more moving parts you have at the beginning, the greater the chances of something going awry and you can't figure out what because....too many moving parts. IMO, simpler is better at the outset. Not saying it can't be done, but it's not the way to bet.

Everyone here wants new brewers to be successful, so brewing a simple recipe with a simple process at the outset is often the way to go. Exercise patience, and ask where you want to be in six months, not six days.

And BTW: you're doing something called "open transfer" where you're just racking/draining the beer into the keg. The beer is being exposed to oxygen as you do this which will start to oxidize the beer and especially hop flavors and aroma. If you drink it quickly you might get to it before too much oxidation damage is done, but next time you might want to look into closed transfers into a purged keg.

And BTW, II: how did you clean the keg, and sanitize it, before you racked the beer into it?

 

[Alex4mula]

I think maybe brewers wait for later because they come here after the brew and not before or they don't do their research. I have done closed transfer and force carb since my 1st brew (done 20 since Jan). Never had a bad beer yet. But I came here to read and quickly found about these good steps and even basic ones like not doing secondary.
I love that with force carb my beer is ready in 12-15hrs when I do it after cold crash temps (34-44F). I would say that bottling from keg or tap (I assume) should be fine if your friends drink the beer quickly (1-2 days). Otherwise may be better to do it with some beer gun. Try to get a small freezer and you will enjoy your carbed beer a lot quicker ;-) Oh, and I may be wrong but probably cold crashing (& gelatin) could help clarify the beer better than that filter.

 

[crabjoe]

I wanted to do a closed transfer from my primary fermenter but wasn't sure how I could pressurize it. Next time I'll try a closed transfer but still may have to use gravity to push it into the keg.

As for filling the bottles from the keg, I picked up a beer gun..

I cleaned the kegs with PBW then Sanitized with Star San. I cleaned the filter hose and hosing the same. Then put the filter in, then I pushed star san from one keg to the next use Co2. I made sure the filter and Keg was full of CO2 because I pushed it.

Nights are getting into the 40s now.. I think I'll out the keg outside tonight to try and carbonate quicker.

 

[crabjoe]

Folks, could my beer already be carbonated?

Last night, I put the keg outside with the CO2 attached. It was 49F. I brought it back in around 8am and when I shook it, it took a little CO2. I try shaking it again around 12 noon and it took a bit. Now at 4pm, I can't hear the CO2 tank hissing at all. The junk regulator I got is holding steady at 28 psi, no matter how much I shake it.

BTW, if I pour a glass at 70F, how should the beer look? Should it behave the same as if it came out at say 45F from a refrigerated Keg?

 

[doug293cz]

Pouring at room temp will give you a lot more foam than pouring cold beer. CO2 comes out of solution much faster at higher temps.

If you are carbonating at higher temps than the charts show, you can use this equation to determine the pressure required to get the CO2 volumes (carb level) you want, at the current beer temp.

P =(V+0.003342)/(0.01821+0.090115*exp(-(T-32)/43.11))-14.695
where T is beer temp in °F, P is PSI gauge pressure, and V is volumes of CO2 desired​

Brew on

 

[crabjoe]

Pouring at room temp will give you a lot more foam than pouring cold beer. CO2 comes out of solution much faster at higher temps.

If you are carbonating at higher temps than the charts show, you can use this equation to determine the pressure required to get the CO2 volumes (carb level) you want, at the current beer temp.

P =(V+0.003342)/(0.01821+0.090115*exp(-(T-32)/43.11))-14.695
where T is beer temp in °F, P is PSI gauge pressure, and V is volumes of CO2 desired​

Brew on

Being that it seems like it's not taking any more gas, would that mean it's done carbonating?

BTW, thanks for the info on the foam at room temp. When I get home, I think I'll pour a small glass to see how it looks.

 

[doug293cz]

It could be done carbonating, or maybe not quite. As beer gets close to fully carbonated (for the temp and pressure in use) the rate of CO2 absorption slows way down. It may still be absorbing a little CO2, even though you can't hear the gas flow anymore. But, you may not be able to tell the difference between the current level of carbonation, and "full" carbonation, in which case it is effectively "fully carbed," to your tastes.

Brew on

 

[IslandLizard]

Here's how I force carbonate:

1. Make sure the keg of beer is cold, ~32-36F. 40F is fine, but the colder, the better.
2. Connect gas and set regulator to 30 psi.
3. Lay the keg down on a thick towel with the gas post pointing up (!).
4. Roll (rock) the keg back and forth (~45-60° each way) under 30 psi until you hear no more gas rushing in, the regulator also stops groaning. This takes about 10 minutes.
5. Put the keg upright and keep at 30 psi and as cold as possible (32-36F) for 18-24 hours, no longer. Your 40F is probably fine too. This will help the carbonation to "integrate," bubbles become finer and foaming is reduced.
6. When the 24 hours are up, blow off excess (PRV) and set pressure to 12 psi (or your serving pressure).
7. Over the next 12-24 hours keep pulling the PRV every few hours (whenever you get a chance) to blow off excess pressure. The keg should be nicely carbonated by then, getting better with time. You can tap and enjoy during this time while it all evens out.
8. The beer may be a bit foamy, and improves with time, usually very good after a day or 2.*
9. This is essential: Keep the keg at serving temp all the time, or as much as you can.

* When it pours nicely, bottle it up.
Use reduced pressure (4-6 psi max) while filling, and make sure the keg (beer) is ice cold. Cold bottles also may help reduce foaming while filling. I prefer to fill bottles under counter pressure, but your gun should work fine too. Filling bottles from a keg is a whole different chapter, though. Read up on it.

 

[crabjoe]

Got home and tried to poor myself a glass.. And it comes out as foam.

I don't get it.. The liquid line is clear, so I can see the beer, but when it comes out the picnic tap, it's just foam coming out. This is at 2 psi. I went ahead and put the pressure up to 10 psi and I'm going to let it sit for an hour then try again. Reason I'm going to wait a bit is because before I poured.... I wasn't thinking, and I shook the keg to see if it would take more CO2, which it didn't.

No idea what causes only foam, but I'm thinking it's over carbonated..

BTW, I can see bubbles separate from the beer, in the beer line..

 

[crabjoe]

Here's how I force carbonate:

1. Make sure the keg of beer is cold, ~32-36F. 40F is fine, but the colder, the better.
2. Connect gas and set regulator to 30 psi.
3. Lay the keg down on a thick towel with the gas post pointing up (!).
4. Roll (rock) the keg back and forth (~45-60° each way) under 30 psi until you hear no more gas rushing in, the regulator also stops groaning. This takes about 10 minutes.
5. Put the keg upright and keep at 30 psi and as cold as possible (32-36F) for 18-24 hours, no longer. Your 40F is probably fine too. This will help the carbonation to "integrate," bubbles become finer and foaming is reduced.
6. When the 24 hours are up, blow off excess (PRV) and set pressure to 12 psi (or your serving pressure).
7. Over the next 12-24 hours keep pulling the PRV every few hours (whenever you get a chance) to blow off excess pressure. The keg should be nicely carbonated by then, getting better with time. You can tap and enjoy during this time while it all evens out.
8. The beer may be a bit foamy, and improves with time, usually very good after a day or 2.*
9. This is essential: Keep the keg at serving temp all the time, or as much as you can.

* When it pours nicely, bottle it up.
Use reduced pressure (4-6 psi max) while filling, and make sure the keg (beer) is ice cold. Cold bottles also may help reduce foaming while filling. I prefer to fill bottles under counter pressure, but your gun should work fine too. Filling bottles from a keg is a whole different chapter, though. Read up on it.

The problem is the I don't have any fridge space to chill the beer. My plan was to carbonate it in the keg, then bottle for storage. Bottles, I've got room for.. Keg is a no go..

 

[doug293cz]

Got home and tried to poor myself a glass.. And it comes out as foam.

I don't get it.. The liquid line is clear, so I can see the beer, but when it comes out the picnic tap, it's just foam coming out. This is at 2 psi. I went ahead and put the pressure up to 10 psi and I'm going to let it sit for an hour then try again. Reason I'm going to wait a bit is because before I poured.... I wasn't thinking, and I shook the keg to see if it would take more CO2, which it didn't.

No idea what causes only foam, but I'm thinking it's over carbonated..

BTW, I can see bubbles separate from the beer, in the beer line..

Take a room temp bottle of beer, shake it up a bit, and then quickly pop the cap. Foam everywhere. You did basically the same thing, but you had a nozzle to control the foam from going everywhere. The physics doesn't care much about the size of the "bottle". Trying to pour warm beer from a keg is a losing proposition, even if you don't shake the keg first.

Even if you reduce the headspace pressure to 2 psi, the CO2 in the beer still has ~30 psi internal pressure. That's a lot of driving force for the CO2 to come out of solution and make foam.

Brew on

 

[crabjoe]

Take a room temp bottle of beer, shake it up a bit, and then quickly pop the cap. Foam everywhere. You did basically the same thing, but you had a nozzle to control the foam from going everywhere. The physics doesn't care much about the size of the "bottle". Trying to pour warm beer from a keg is a losing proposition, even if you don't shake the keg first.

Even if you reduce the headspace pressure to 2 psi, the CO2 in the beer still has ~30 psi internal pressure. That's a lot of driving force for the CO2 to come out of solution and make foam.

Brew on

That's what I figured when I started typing out the last post.

I went to pour another glass and it's all foam still. I also went to my garage and cleaned out a section in my garage fridge.. had to throw out some stuff and rake out a couple of shelves, but I got the keg in there with the regulator. Fridge temp was showing 50F, so I turned it down as low as it can go.. I'm hoping it can get to 45... Then I set the regulator to 10psi. I'll check in the morning to see how it is.

 

[bracconiere]

Folks, could my beer already be carbonated?

Last night, I put the keg outside with the CO2 attached. It was 49F. I brought it back in around 8am and when I shook it, it took a little CO2. I try shaking it again around 12 noon and it took a bit. Now at 4pm, I can't hear the CO2 tank hissing at all. The junk regulator I got is holding steady at 28 psi, no matter how much I shake it.

BTW, if I pour a glass at 70F, how should the beer look?

lol, i'm 20 beers into the evening, but at 70f, your beer will look like foam...episodically(yes, that's what spell correct recommended) if you burst carb'd at 28psi

 

[crabjoe]

lol, i'm 20 beers into the evening, but at 70f, your beer will look like foam...episodically(yes, that's what spell correct recommended) if you burst carb'd at 28psi

I made some fridge space and moved it in; set the regulator ro 10 psi. Do you think that'll normalize it so it stops the crazy foam? If not, what should I do?

 

[brew703]

Are you using regular 3/16" thick walled vinyl tubing? How long is you line that is hooked to your picnic tap?
I ask because I have a picnic tap hooked to 5' of Bevlex and if I use it at 12 PSI, it's way too much pressure and pours nothing but foam. If your line is 5' then you will probably have to shut off your co2 tank and reduce the pressure in your keg or at least reduce the regulator to 2 PSI or so and see if that helps.
When you go to bottle, make sure your bottles are cold as that will help with the foam.

 

[crabjoe]

Are you using regular 3/16" thick walled vinyl tubing? How long is you line that is hooked to your picnic tap?
I ask because I have a picnic tap hooked to 5' of Bevlex and if I use it at 12 PSI, it's way too much pressure and pours nothing but foam. If your line is 5' then you will probably have to shut off your co2 tank and reduce the pressure in your keg or at least reduce the regulator to 2 PSI or so and see if that helps.
When you go to bottle, make sure your bottles are cold as that will help with the foam.

I'm using the 3/16 line that's 4 feet. I set it to 10 psi because so many posts say when they carbonate in their fridge/keezer/whatever, they have it set to 10-12 psi.

My thinking is that once the beer temp drops and pressure normalizes, the co2 should equalize.. if its over carbed, my gauge should read higher. If under, it'll be at a minimum of 10psi. I do plan on reducing the pressure to 2 psi for check the actual pour.

Thanks!

 

[brew703]

I'm using the 3/16 line that's 4 feet. I set it to 10 psi because so many posts say when they carbonate in their fridge/keezer/whatever, they have it set to 10-12 psi.

My thinking is that once the beer temp drops and pressure normalizes, the co2 should equalize.. if its over carbed, my gauge should read higher. If under, it'll be at a minimum of 10psi. I do plan on reducing the pressure to 2 psi for check the actual pour.

Thanks!

I use 5' of the vinyl tubing hooked to a picnic tap set at 12 PSI. I reduced that down to 5 PSI and it still was nothing but foam. When hooked up to one of my other lines, it was a perfect pour. My keezer stays at 35 degrees. I use Bev Seal Ultra for my two taps (12' length each) with no foaming issues. IMO 10' might work for vinyl tubing at 10 PSI.

 

[bracconiere]

I'm using the 3/16 line that's 4 feet

i use like 12-14' of line, i forget what really...but there's calcs on the interwebs for different materials resistance rating, and how much it gives per foot.

and your going to have to vent your keg to release pressure if over carbd, your idea would be sound on the gauge, but most regulators have a back flow cut off, (forget the actual word for them), so it's not going to go higher...

 

[crabjoe]

Sounds like I'll need a longer line..

I'm going to run down to HD later today and pick up 20ft of 3/16 in. I.D. x 5/16 in. O.D. x 20 ft. tubing. Man that's some thin walled tubing. Should I ditch that idea and order 3/16 ID x 7/16 OD tubing from Amazon? Will the wall thickness make any difference?

 

[IslandLizard]

Sounds like I'll need a longer line..

I'm going to run down to HD later today and pick up 20ft of 3/16 in. I.D. x 5/16 in. O.D. x 20 ft. tubing. Man that's some thin walled tubing. Should I ditch that idea and order 3/16 ID x 7/16 OD tubing from Amazon? Will the wall thickness make any difference?

None of those.
Vinyl line, even the thick walled beverage stuff (Bevlex 200) leaves a plasticy taste and oxidizes beer when it sits in the line for longer times. You're better off getting this new EVA-Barrier line and push fittings. Read this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/accuflex-ultra-235-vs-kegland-eva-barrier.668944/

The only thing is, to attach the line to a picnic tap you need a short piece of 3/16" ID Bevlex 200 and the help of another push-fit adapter.
Or get a real beer faucet.

Start looking for a dedicated beer serving fridge or freezer?
Craigslist, classifieds, etc.

 

[crabjoe]

None of those.
Vinyl line, even the thick walled beverage stuff (Bevlex 200) leaves a plasticy taste and oxidizes beer when it sits in the line for longer times. You're better off getting this new EVA-Barrier line and push fittings. Read this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/accuflex-ultra-235-vs-kegland-eva-barrier.668944/

The only thing is, to attach the line to a picnic tap you need a short piece of 3/16" ID Bevlex 200 and the help of another push-fit adapter.
Or get a real beer faucet.

Start looking for a dedicated beer serving fridge or freezer?
Craigslist, classifieds, etc.

I don't think that will work because the line looks to rigid. Looks like the same line used on my RO system. I'll keep the info you passed for when I do need it for a Keezer or the likes..

Looks like I'll just order the lines online. Can't seem to find the 7/16 OD bev lines locally.

Thank you.

 

[9Kegs]

Just got done with my 1st brew and I put it in a Keg to carbonate. I don't have refrigeration space, so I need to do in my basement, which is sitting right at 70 F these days. I looked at the carbonating charts, but they all stop at 65F so what should I do?

It can be carbonated warm in 10-14 days by priming in the keg with the proper amount of corn sugar.

 

[crabjoe]

It can be carbonated warm in 10-14 days by priming in the keg with the proper amount of corn sugar.

Thanks, but I'm trying to keep the beer clear for bottling. I guess if I waited, the 1st slug of beer from the keg would remove the dead yeast and what not from if using priming sugar, but I figure why go through that step since I have the CO2.... Plus I might run into the same problem with foam, even if I let the yeast carbonate.. I just need to figure this out and see what works.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

 

[Alex4mula]

Those picnic taps are iffy. My keezer lines are 5’ long and work great. My picnic tap is also 5’ long and serves 25% foam. Make sure you open the tap all the way. I think also your beer may be overcarb too complicating things. You will figure it out over time.

 

[Jag75]

My picnic tap line is 5ft. My regular tap lines are 10ft. I have to lower the psi to around 3-5 when serving from picnic tap.

 

[crabjoe]

I found today that the only way to reduce the foam was to turn the CO2 tank completely off and release all the pressure from the keg. Then I had to just give it a quick burst (I'm talking less than 2 psi in the tank) of CO2 from the tank so there was some pressure to push the beer. When that was done, I was able to get beer without any foam. I then tried setting the pressure to 2 psi on the regulator.... all I got was foam again.

My new 25ft beer line came in, so I'm going to try longer line.. Not sure if I should do 10 or more feet.

BTW, as it stands, I've got the regulator set to 10 psi so I don't lose all the carbonation.

 

[Jag75]

If you fill 2 glasses is the 2nd glass foam as well?

 

[DVCNick]

The easiest thing to do here is bottle condition until you get a kegerator. Let the bottles chill for at least 24 hours before drinking and everything will drop out. Pour everything but the last little bit and you will have a clear beer. Or about as clear as it is likely to get in a reasonable time frame, anyway.

After some experience, I work my kegs as follows....

Kegerator temp around 38 (could probably even lower this a little bit).
20ft of line (probably excessive but I wanted to rule it out as an issue once and for all)
Tower is not cooled
When I go to drink off the keg, I turn the gas off at the regulator and just let the residual pressure in the keg do the serving.

As long as the glass is cold, even with a warm tower I don't get excessive foam with this setup. If the glass is warm, all bets are off and depending on how warm, can get up to half a glass of foam with the above setup depending on the exact pressure in the keg.

When I'm done drinking on the keg, I turn the regulator pressure back up to normal serving pressure so the beer doesn't continue to let off C02 and get undercarbed.

Maybe with frozen bottles you might be able to get this batch into them with a reasonable efficiency level, but it is going to be tougher than it should be.

 

[crabjoe]

I put a 10ft line on and poured just a bit of beer to push the starsan out of the new line... And as far as I can tell, it seem this might have solved my foaming issue.. I'm going to let the line cool to fridge temp for an hour or more then pour myself a glass to see how it works out.

Wish me luck!

 

[crabjoe]

If you fill 2 glasses is the 2nd glass foam as well?

Yup, it's all foam. It was like the picnic tap was turning it into foam as it comes out. You can't see any liquid come from the faucet. but you know it's liquid going in because the line is clear.

 

[Bobby_M]

Bottling with a beer gun is finicky business. The keg needs to be like 33F, the bottles need to be similarly cold.

 

[crabjoe]

Here's the outcome from switching the line length. Both pics were taken about 20 seconds after the pour. What a difference line length makes!

BTW, the 4ft line was poured at 2 psi. The 10ft line was poured at 10 psi. I'm having a hard time believing how much of a difference the line length can make.

4 ft line

10ft line

 

[doug293cz]

Here's the outcome from switching the line length. Both pics were taken about 20 seconds after the pour. What a difference line length makes!

BTW, the 4ft line was poured at 2 psi. The 10ft line was poured at 10 psi. I'm having a hard time believing how much of a difference the line length can make.

4 ft line
View attachment 647571

10ft line
View attachment 647572

Glad you corrected the problem. Don't feel bad, there are many folks who find the importance of line length difficult to believe.

Brew on