Fly sparge, having to dilute in kettle

[beerbeer95648]

Just out of curiosity, what effect do you guys feel there may be by having to add roughly 40% of my total pre-boil volume as a direct addition of water to my kettle?

I run at 1.25qt/lb and tend to get first wort gravities of about 1.085. I am shooting for 53 litres at kettle full, but normally only hit about 35 litres of strong wort before my last runnings gravity is around 1.012 with a pH of about 5.8. I then top up to 53 litres with my remaining sparge liquor to hit my target kettle full volume and gravity. I am getting about 84% mash effeciency this way and the sparge time is only about 35 min due to the large volume that goes into the kettle.

Most of my beers are between 1.040 and 1.056 starting gravities.

I assume if I ran a thinner mash I could sparge longer. But my concern is if I am getting all I can as far as character out of the grain going the route I am now. I sometimes feel some beers are not as full flavored as they should be. I cant see this making a difference, but thought I would ask.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

 

[feinbera]

Brew bigger beers.

Seriously, though, you are correct -- if you're getting over 80% efficiency, you're getting pretty much everything there is to be gotten out of your current grain bills. You could up the specialty grains in your recipes to add a lot more flavor without moving your gravity numbers too much, or you could just scale the entire grain bill and brew a stronger beer.

You might also think about playing with your mash temperature, dropping it a couple degrees so you end up with more unfermentable sugars to contribute to the body and mouthfeel.

 

[duboman]

It really sounds as though you need to dial in your process better so you are not topping off. If your calculations are correct then when you are done sparging you should be right at your pre-boil volume at the correct gravity regardless of going 1.25 or 1.5 qt/lb.

It also sounds as though you are not adjusting your grain bill for proper efficiency. In other words, if you are operating at 84% but your recipes are calculated for say, 70% then you are using a lot more grain then you need to and should cut back. This will then allow for more water to mash and sparge in your tun. Assuming your process is pretty consistent you should be able to adjust the grain bill and water volumes to account for the correct volumes and efficiency and achieve your final volume without the need to top off and dilute.

Based on your typical desired gravities you should be around 10lbs total grain +/- at 75% efficiency, how much grain are you using?

 

[chickens4life]

It really sounds as though you need to dial in your process better so you are not topping off. If your calculations are correct then when you are done sparging you should be right at your pre-boil volume at the correct gravity regardless of going 1.25 or 1.5 qt/lb.

It also sounds as though you are not adjusting your grain bill for proper efficiency. In other words, if you are operating at 84% but your recipes are calculated for say, 70% then you are using a lot more grain then you need to and should cut back. This will then allow for more water to mash and sparge in your tun. Assuming your process is pretty consistent you should be able to adjust the grain bill and water volumes to account for the correct volumes and efficiency and achieve your final volume without the need to top off and dilute.

Based on your typical desired gravities you should be around 10lbs total grain +/- at 75% efficiency, how much grain are you using?

the need to top of isn't because of miss calculated volumes, it is because he is sparging out the grain completely (to the point where the pH is getting to where it will start extracting tanins and there is essentially no more sugar to get out of the grains).

to the OP I think what you are doing is good, as long as your top up water is good brewing water. it is certainly better than over sparging.

 

[duboman]

the need to top of isn't because of miss calculated volumes, it is because he is sparging out the grain completely (to the point where the pH is getting to where it will start extracting tanins and there is essentially no more sugar to get out of the grains). to the OP I think what you are doing is good, as long as your top up water is good brewing water. it is certainly better than over sparging.

Could be and I get that but if the recipe and volumes are being calculated properly with the proper amount of grain and water volume the OP should be able to complete the process without topping off- the OP is basically bordering on no sparge brewing which is fine but he/she is trying to get rid of the top off step from what I'm reading.

He/she is trying to hit gravitates of 1.050 or so and pre boil gravitates are way over that meaning post boil the gravity is bordering on 1.100! That's a lot of dilution to get down to desired post boil gravity. Something is just not right in the process

 

[beerbeer95648]

Could be and I get that but if the recipe and volumes are being calculated properly with the proper amount of grain and water volume the OP should be able to complete the process without topping off- the OP is basically bordering on no sparge brewing which is fine but he/she is trying to get rid of the top off step from what I'm reading.

He/she is trying to hit gravitates of 1.050 or so and pre boil gravitates are way over that meaning post boil the gravity is bordering on 1.100! That's a lot of dilution to get down to desired post boil gravity. Something is just not right in the process

Keep in mind this is a small beer and these are all 14 gallon (53L) preboil beers, but my last beer was a Timothy Taylor clone. 14lb MO, 2 oz Carafa III in the sparge, 1lb 10oz table sugar. Shooting for a pre boil of 1.031 at 53 liters pre sugar. Got 33 liters at 1.055. Diluted to 53 litres came to 1.031 (1.037 after sugar). Not really a process issue in my mind. I just seem to get a pretty high first wort gravity and a really efficient sparge. Granted if I do a 1.067 post boil beer, I will not have to cut it as much. Last beer of that gravity I had to add maybe 10 liters after stopping the runnings at 1.012-1.015. But any beer that is in the 1.035-1.050 OG range I tend to get to 35 liters before stopping the sparge. I am looking to try and get away from diluting just because it would be easier to lauter to a kettle full volume in stead of constantly monitoring the gravity and pH from the grant. I would think again that thinning my liquor grist ratio will allow me to be less effecient with my sparge and thus use more volume.

 

[duboman]

Right, which is why I questioned your recipe calculations being at the appropriate efficiency, it appears that you get much better efficiency than what your recipe is calculated for resulting in higher extraction with less sparge required. If you were to adjust your efficiency then you would be able to do an appropriate sparge and eliminate the dilution.

I would also query as to the proper calibration of your measuring devices to ensure they are all correct readings such as gravity, volume measurements, etc...

Just trying to help figure this out

 

[beerbeer95648]

Right, which is why I questioned your recipe calculations being at the appropriate efficiency, it appears that you get much better efficiency than what your recipe is calculated for resulting in higher extraction with less sparge required. If you were to adjust your efficiency then you would be able to do an appropriate sparge and eliminate the dilution.

I would also query as to the proper calibration of your measuring devices to ensure they are all correct readings such as gravity, volume measurements, etc...

Just trying to help figure this out

I appreciate all the input. Help on brother.

All the instruments are calibrated. I tend to build the recipes using Beersmith. The thing is that my true efficiency to the kettle matches what I am adding in terms of grain. I assume if I lowered my efficiency, thus used more malt, I would get the same first wort gravity (just a larger vol), and have more sugar to sparge out. But I am not sure if I would then overshoot my gravity? Like I said I always hit my target vol and gravity, just in a round about way. Am I following what your saying?

 

[duboman]

I appreciate all the input. Help on brother. All the instruments are calibrated. I tend to build the recipes using Beersmith. The thing is that my true efficiency to the kettle matches what I am adding in terms of grain. I assume if I lowered my efficiency, thus used more malt, I would get the same first wort gravity (just a larger vol), and have more sugar to sparge out. But I am not sure if I would then overshoot my gravity? Like I said I always hit my target vol and gravity, just in a round about way. Am I following what your saying?

It's not so much the grain as the gravity and volume into the kettle. So if you use x amount of grain calculated at 75% eff. And consistently get a higher gravity the your using more grain than necessary. If you recalculate the recipe using the higher eff # then you would cut back on the grain amount needed to achieve the proper gravity. This would translate to more proper volumes and meet your pre boil volume.

Also, are we talking brew house eff or mash/Lauter? There is a difference and BeerSmith defaults to brew house efficiency numbers. Ideally you want both efficiency numbers to match. My system produces 80% in both so that's how I create my recipes calculations.

So look back at a given recipe and on the mash/Lauter page you should see an efficiency % as well as on the fermentation page and compare the two- this assumes you are tracking all the gravity and volumes and have your equipment profile set up properly.

Something is off in what you appear to be doing and that is why you are consistently topping off. If you are hitting your your pre-boil volume then you might be boiling to vigorously and over boiling the wort and creating a greater loss than necessary. If you are adding water to the pre-boil to get your desired volume then you're not calculating something properly to achieve proper first runnings and consequent sparge volume.

 

[beerbeer95648]

Yah, my brewhouse efficiency is 79% in beersmith, mash efficiency is 84%. The thing though is that I am extracting all the sugar like Chickens4life said. There have been times when I underestimated my efficiency, then had to cut the run short in order to dilute the kettle down before it was too late. But in those cases I was left with 1.030+ runnings. Currently, I sparge slowly and end with a kettle that needs to be diluted and very low last runnings. The one time I decided to just sparge to volume, I hit both my target volume and gravity, but had last runnings of 1.003. So, my numbers have to be right. I just dont know why I can get all the sugar out so effectively. I understand where your going with it, but in your scenario I would have high last runnings gravities, right?

 

[duboman]

No, in my scenario your last runnings should be on target and at the desired pre boil volume, no over sparge and no volume shortage or excess.

Jus throwing some ideas out there for you to test with your next batch. Try it out and report back.

 

[beerbeer95648]

Will do. I do appreciate the info.

Cheers

 

[RoundKid]

First. Your process is fine. Your lauter is great and there is nothing wrong with topping the kettle up before the boil.

However, If your goal is to increase wort from the mash, the easiest way is to increase your grist ratio. I would go up to at least 1.5qt/lb but you could go to 2.0qt/lb.

From a 14 lb grain bill that would give you an extra 3.5qt (at 1.5) or 7qt (at 2.0) right off the bat.

Do you see a gradual or sudden decline in you runoff gravity?

 

[beerbeer95648]

First. Your process is fine. Your lauter is great and there is nothing wrong with topping the kettle up before the boil.

However, If your goal is to increase wort from the mash, the easiest way is to increase your grist ratio. I would go up to at least 1.5qt/lb but you could go to 2.0qt/lb.

From a 14 lb grain bill that would give you an extra 3.5qt (at 1.5) or 7qt (at 2.0) right off the bat.

Do you see a gradual or sudden decline in you runoff gravity?

Relatively gradual I'd say for the 4 or so gallons. Then quicker the last gallon or two before cutting it at around 35 liters. I do not increase the run-off rate, and tend to run about a .75-1 liters a minute. I keep about a half inch on sparge water on the bed and stop adding water when my runnings hit about 1.020. By the time the runnings drop to 1.012 the bed is running dry. I have beersmith set for 7% evaporation. 14 gallon pre-boil down to roughly 12.8 gallon with a 75 min boil.

 

[RoundKid]

Mash efficiency is a combination of two separate numbers, conversion efficiency and launter efficiency. You state you are getting about 84% mash efficiency. The question is how you are getting there. You said your first wort gravity is 1.084. At 1.25qt/lb you should be closer to 1.096 for first wort gravity. That is a conversion efficiency of only 87.5%. Conversion efficiency should almost be near 100% and anything below 90% is suspect of having issues (I.e. Poor grain crush, dough balls, incorrect temperature, insufficient mash time).

However, your launter efficiency appears to be excellent, better than most even. That is how you are still getting fairly high overall mash efficiency with low conversion efficiency. I think if you solved your conversion efficiency issue, you would pull out more sugar from the grain, and then could launter for longer before the gravity dropped below the acceptable level. Also, I think you could launter down to 1.008 as long as the PH is still acceptable.

You said you stop adding sparge water at 1.020 and then drain the grain bed dry. Have you investigated what would happen if you continue to add sparge water until the wort is down below 1.010?

Increasing the grist ratio to 1.5 or 2.0 as I stated in my earlier post (or even up to 2.5 qt/lb.) may help you with your conversion efficiency as well. It is possible you are not getting good conversion because your mash is not getting mixed well because it is so thick. How do you dough in? Water into grain or grain into water? Do you mix the grain with hot water or add the grain to cold water and heat it all up together?

 

[beerbeer95648]

Mash efficiency is a combination of two separate numbers, conversion efficiency and launter efficiency. You state you are getting about 84% mash efficiency. The question is how you are getting there. You said your first wort gravity is 1.084. At 1.25qt/lb you should be closer to 1.096 for first wort gravity. That is a conversion efficiency of only 87.5%. Conversion efficiency should almost be near 100% and anything below 90% is suspect of having issues (I.e. Poor grain crush, dough balls, incorrect temperature, insufficient mash time).

However, your launter efficiency appears to be excellent, better than most even. That is how you are still getting fairly high overall mash efficiency with low conversion efficiency. I think if you solved your conversion efficiency issue, you would pull out more sugar from the grain, and then could lauter for longer before the gravity dropped below the acceptable level. Also, I think you could lauter down to 1.008 as long as the PH is still acceptable.

You said you stop adding sparge water at 1.020 and then drain the grain bed dry. Have you investigated what would happen if you continue to add sparge water until the wort is down below 1.010?

Increasing the grist ratio to 1.5 or 2.0 as I stated in my earlier post (or even up to 2.5 qt/lb.) may help you with your conversion efficiency as well. It is possible you are not getting good conversion because your mash is not getting mixed well because it is so thick. How do you dough in? Water into grain or grain into water? Do you mix the grain with hot water or add the grain to cold water and heat it all up together?

Funny, I never thought about the conversion side of things, and didnt realize I was on the low side in terms of first wort gravity for that ratio. I tend to heat the water up separately then stir in the grain in about 2 or 3 stages. I mix manually. I rest for 60 minutes, iodine test, then heat with direct heat while stirring constantly to get to 168 degrees. This takes me about 10 minutes to get to mash off temp from 150 degrees. I have opened my mill up to about .05 though. I haven't tried sparging beyond that point mostly due to the fact if I leave too much water behind in the bed, I run out of liquor to add to the kettle. I will attempt to thin the mash on the next brew. If that doesnt do it completely, I have quite a bit of room to close down the mill gap. Good info. Cheers.

 

[duboman]

Mash efficiency is a combination of two separate numbers, conversion efficiency and launter efficiency. You state you are getting about 84% mash efficiency. The question is how you are getting there. You said your first wort gravity is 1.084. At 1.25qt/lb you should be closer to 1.096 for first wort gravity. That is a conversion efficiency of only 87.5%. Conversion efficiency should almost be near 100% and anything below 90% is suspect of having issues (I.e. Poor grain crush, dough balls, incorrect temperature, insufficient mash time).

However, your launter efficiency appears to be excellent, better than most even. That is how you are still getting fairly high overall mash efficiency with low conversion efficiency. I think if you solved your conversion efficiency issue, you would pull out more sugar from the grain, and then could launter for longer before the gravity dropped below the acceptable level. Also, I think you could launter down to 1.008 as long as the PH is still acceptable.

You said you stop adding sparge water at 1.020 and then drain the grain bed dry. Have you investigated what would happen if you continue to add sparge water until the wort is down below 1.010?

Increasing the grist ratio to 1.5 or 2.0 as I stated in my earlier post (or even up to 2.5 qt/lb.) may help you with your conversion efficiency as well. It is possible you are not getting good conversion because your mash is not getting mixed well because it is so thick. How do you dough in? Water into grain or grain into water? Do you mix the grain with hot water or add the grain to cold water and heat it all up together?

I too did not really consider this and it is all good info to give a try for sure-looks like you have some homework for your next batch