float switches

[TrickyDick]

Hello,

Have an electric HLT with 1.5" TC ports for high and low water level switches.
My control panel is BCS operated.
Currently, the panel is wired for 2 switches, which I believe are simply an open circuit that prevents the SSR from firing the element (in the low level). The high switch is meant to be used in conjunction with a mechanized ball valve that will fill the HLT with water from my RO tank. When the switch is closed by high water level, the ball valve closes so the HLT will not overflow, and then can also begin heating the now full HLT in preparation for brewing.

At least, that is what I want it to do. I need switches that will work through the TC ports either with or without NPT adapters (ideally without since adapters would add to cost).

Can anybody recommend switches and a source to buy them?

I did find 4 Omron E2K-L capacitative switches on eBay that I bought, but I think it would be less effort and work on my part to simply get some mechanical switches. The Omron switches mount to the sight glass which is mixed glass/plastic and metal with a oval "windows" cut into it. Apparently the sensors don't work with metal and there is a small gap the thickness of the metal between the sensor surface and the plastic which would be difficult to mitigate. Also the wiring is different that what the panel float switch ports are currently configured for: and open circuit to be completed by the switch vs a + DC current output to signal presence of liquid at the sensor. If I can get the sensors to read a fluid level with the hybrid metal/plastic sightglass, I could theoretically plug the existing float switch connectors into a separate small project box, in which I could supply DC current from a small wall wart supply, and get some relays that would actuate from the +VDC sensor output, and then close the circuit, simulating a mechanical switch. Seems a lot of effort though. The original plan was to convert mechanical NPT float switches into TC, but they got fragged. I've since read mixed reports about the inexpensive mechanical float switches failing, which would be very very bad.


Thanks!

TD

 

[poptarts]

The cheaper duck bill ones for like 10$ on ebay that I linked you a couple weeks ago seem to do the job at the moment. I will be doing lots more testing with them over the weekend. But I have yet to see TC float switches anywhere.

 

[JonW]

Curious to see where you end up with this. I've pre-wired my new rig for float switches but have not outlined an implementation plan yet.

 

[TrickyDick]

#Poptarts, I think I missed that link. I'll need to do a search

#JonW, The real reason I wanted float switches and a BCS panel for that matter as opposed to a Kal clone, was to permit some time saving features. For me, some of the bigger time sinks in homebrewing are collecting the water and heating the the strike water. I had an RO tank installed a couple years ago, but it can only crank out about 12 gallons before its drained, and then it regenerates slowly. Too slowly to bother trying to get the last 2-3 gallons that BeerSmith indicates I should have for the recipe I am doing. So I had been collecting the water in those 5gal plastic water jugs a day or so in advance. If I forgot to do it, or wanted to brew spontaneously it was nearly impossible. I had a leftover mechanical valve from the DIY Plastic Glycol Chilled Conical Fermentation rig I built a few years back (there is a huge thread on this site) and thought it would work well for remote automated filling and pre-heating of the strike water in the HLT. I am hoping to figure out even more ways to use the BCS to do any other automation I can think of to save even more time. The goal would be to be able to do a small weeknight 5 gallon (or less) batch spontaneously whenever the mood strikes.

TD

 

[Namako]

#Poptarts, I think I missed that link. I'll need to do a search

#JonW, The real reason I wanted float switches and a BCS panel for that matter as opposed to a Kal clone, was to permit some time saving features. For me, some of the bigger time sinks in homebrewing are collecting the water and heating the the strike water. I had an RO tank installed a couple years ago, but it can only crank out about 12 gallons before its drained, and then it regenerates slowly. Too slowly to bother trying to get the last 2-3 gallons that BeerSmith indicates I should have for the recipe I am doing. So I had been collecting the water in those 5gal plastic water jugs a day or so in advance. If I forgot to do it, or wanted to brew spontaneously it was nearly impossible. I had a leftover mechanical valve from the DIY Plastic Glycol Chilled Conical Fermentation rig I built a few years back (there is a huge thread on this site) and thought it would work well for remote automated filling and pre-heating of the strike water in the HLT. I am hoping to figure out even more ways to use the BCS to do any other automation I can think of to save even more time. The goal would be to be able to do a small weeknight 5 gallon (or less) batch spontaneously whenever the mood strikes.

TD

How about using the Blichmann Autosparge, which would shut off flow to the tank when the level hits the mark you set?

 

[BrunDog]

I use the same E2K-L sensor and have had good luck so far with it (tuning adjustment is important, as I learned). The benefit of these is they are non-contact and can be adjusted to any level you want depending on that particular brew. If you were placing one just to make sure there is fluid above your element, that might not be desirable as it could move to too low a position on accident.

My sight glass is just a glass - so if you have a shield it would be a problem. Also, since these are NPN, that will not integrate easily with the BCS. You could either use a pullup resistor on the output and have the BCS read the OFF signal when the fluid is above the sensor. In my case, I used a DIN mounted reed relay. My sensor is powered by 24V so the relay easily isolates the sensor from the BCS. And since switching speed/frequency is no issue, a relay is fine.

-BD

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks!

I am not sure where I will end up with this, but my electronics expertise is not holding up well as I get older. I get most of what you're saying, but I think I will try using some mechanical switches first. Only issue with this would be if the floats extend far enough into the kettle for the TC to NPT adapters to facilitate the float actuation of the switches. If that works, then I will monitor closely, since if the mechanical switches fail, it would create a HUGE MESS for me. The capacitative switches would mount to the hybrid sightglass if I end up needing to use them. I could possibly enlarge the cut-out window in the metal housing around the plastic part of the sightglasses no doubt. Otherwise I could maybe use some silicone or something to provide contact. The TC ports on the kettle for the floats are at higher and lower positions than the sightglass ports. Both the low side ports are well above the heating element position.

Despite the NPN configuration and BCS compatibility, which I confess I know nothing about, I had thought that I could use the native wiring in my panel for the mechanical float switches connected to a relay, simulating a mechanical float switch, that would be actuated by the Omron sensor. This would require a small project box and some additional DIY work in order to supply power to the sensors for one thing and to contain the relay(s), etc. Possibly I could also install some manual mechanical switches for a manual bypass as well.

I am hoping that the mechanical floats work without need for any of that however. If it comes down to it, I may need to tap your shoulder for some wiring and electronics DIY advice, since I am WAAYYYY out of touch. I did a AC-DC PSU in high school and a AM radio on a "breadboard" and yes it was a wooden board. I understand the physics and some of the basic stuff but transistor theory I never fully "got" and when you throw around NPN lingo I get a little nervous.

TD

 

[BrunDog]

For mechanical switches, one terminal of the switch connects to +6V (or whatever your BCS power supply positive voltage is) and the other terminal connects to the BCS input.

If you use a relay like me, the contact portion is wired as above. The coil side has the +24 VDC (or whatever voltage the relay's coil is though it is probably 12 or 24 VDC because that is the sensor's required voltage is) tied to the + coil terminal and the output of the NPN sensor (in this case the E2K-L) tied to the - coil terminal. The coil can be 5V but you will need to make sure your two power supply grounds are tied together in order for the coil to switch by the sensor.

I can draw it if you like.

 

[TrickyDick]

For mechanical switches, one terminal of the switch connects to +6V (or whatever your BCS power supply positive voltage is) and the other terminal connects to the BCS input.

If you use a relay like me, the contact portion is wired as above. The coil side has the +24 VDC (or whatever voltage the relay's coil is though it is probably 12 or 24 VDC because that is the sensor's required voltage is) tied to the + coil terminal and the output of the NPN sensor (in this case the E2K-L) tied to the - coil terminal. The coil can be 5V but you will need to make sure your two power supply grounds are tied together in order for the coil to switch by the sensor.

I can draw it if you like.

I'll let you know if I need to take you up on your offer of a wiring diagram. Big thanks!!

My panel was built and wired by the ebrewsupply guy, Ryan. I believe that the float switches, at least the low level one, is simply a safety to prevent dry firing the element. I think it acts as a normally off switch unless the water level is above the float, then it turns on. This I think is connected to the BCS between the output and the Ssr input to turn on the element when heat is called for. So in other words, it doesn't need power, it's just a dumb on-off switch that closes the circuit when float is floating in the water.

The high level switch I am uncertain of. This was supposed to be used in conjunction with my electric ball valve for the fill water so I could remotely fill the HLT without overflowing the HLT, and if desired, to commence heating to strike temp (without recirculation). I don't think that was programmed into the BCS and I am not sure how to get it to function as desired.

I've asked Ryan for guidance, but I think the holidays has him very busy. Frankly I am too busy also, but hope to find time next week which I'll be off work. Computers finally came back online at work so now off I go...

TD

 

[BrunDog]

For the low switch you could hard wire it in between the BCS output and the SSR and it will act as a safety. My only concern there is if you have a wire fault, a short to ground will destroy the BCS output.

Alternatively you could wire the switch to the input of a DIN. Then use the BCS ladder logic to inhibit the Output which drives the element SSR. That would allow you to test it at any point. It would also allow you to use the switch for a different process than just inhibit the element at a later time.

Not saying one is better than the other - just presenting the options. Pick which best fits your application.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmm.. So I think that the panel, which came all pre wired, has the low side as the safety as you describe. I'm not sure what you mean about a wire fault fragging the BCS output, but what if I install an inline fuse? Would that protect the BCS?

Rewiring anything in the panel is going to be a last resort solution, since it's all been so beautifully and professionally compared to what my approach would be. Plus not knowing what the existing wiring diagram is, I'd likely cause more problems than I fix. I appreciate the guidance however.

TD

 

[BrunDog]

Oh, I didn't realize it was wired already. No, definitely do not touch it. The probability of what I noted is slim to none, and slim just left town. Brew on!

 

[JonW]

Just look in the BCS setup on the DIN section and see if the float switches are listed. There's actually a decent probability that they are wired inline like Brundog first mentioned. If they're not listed in the BCS setup are and used in the programming, then they are definitely wired inline. Regardless of how they are wired right now, you should get a diagram from Ryan for future reference.

 

[TrickyDick]

Just look in the BCS setup on the DIN section and see if the float switches are listed. There's actually a decent probability that they are wired inline like Brundog first mentioned. If they're not listed in the BCS setup are and used in the programming, then they are definitely wired inline. Regardless of how they are wired right now, you should get a diagram from Ryan for future reference.

I will check that out, but I fear it will be blank, because my first plan of action in configuring the panel was to enable authentication. I must not have looked terribly close at what I was doing, because I locked myself out, and had to do a hard reset, which was no easy task because the mounting bracket was covering the hole...

I'll ask Ryan for a wiring diagram.

Thanks

TD

 

[BrunDog]

Been there!

 

[Namako]

Curious to see where you end up with this. I've pre-wired my new rig for float switches but have not outlined an implementation plan yet.

For each of the Blichmann BoilCoils in the brew system that I'm continually building, I'm using two GEMS float switches (LS-7, 164870, eBay) mounted low in the HLT and BK to protect the elements from dry-firing; these switches are wired inline with the 5VDC signal heading to the SSR. Once the liquid level (water or wort) drops below the pre-established level in the kettles, the float switch opens (e.g., interupts) the 5VDC signal to the SSR, keeping it from firing regardless of what the selector switch says (Manual or BCS).

Then, as evidence that I'm generally a distrusting fellow of electronics (or an admission that I'm prone to screwing up while brewing), I've also wired my system so that I can isolate each of the float switches and electrically remove them (one or both) from the process - just in case maybe the switch fails, or maybe it gets gummed up and stuck on open, or maybe I might one day want to see what happens to the BoilCoils if they really do run dry?

For the RIMS, I use an adjustable GEMS flow switch (FS-10798, PM 25364, also eBay) mounted at the RIMS tube exit to ensure that I have at least a 0.5 gallon-per-minute flow through the tube before allowing the RIMS heater element to fire - this switch satisfies my paranoia that the pumps don't cavitate and I end up boiling the wort in the RIMS during recirculation. The flow switch is also wired inline with the 5VDC signal to the RIMS SSR.

I've attached a page from my schematics that show what I've done with regards to wiring up ONE of the dedicated 240VAC/30A BoilCoil circuits.

I actually have a total of four circuits coming from my breaker box and into my brewstand, each electrically isolated from the others; 1 dedicated 240VAC/30A circuit for each of the two BoilCoils, 1 dedicated 120VAC/20A circuit for the RIMS, and then the general 120VAC/20A circuit that powers the rest of the bench (BCS-462, 12VDC and %VDC transformers, Monster mill, Omega pH and temp controllers, wireless bridge, all-in-one computer w/touchscreen, etc.)... and the garage lights.

View attachment Float Switch Wiring.pdf

 

[Chrisl77]

I don't know about a boil coil but I can tell you what a regular element does when it fires dry. It makes light come out the top of your kettle brighter then the sun.

 

[MrNatural]

I use the same E2K-L sensor and have had good luck so far with it (tuning adjustment is important, as I learned). The benefit of these is they are non-contact and can be adjusted to any level you want depending on that particular brew. If you were placing one just to make sure there is fluid above your element, that might not be desirable as it could move to too low a position on accident.

My sight glass is just a glass - so if you have a shield it would be a problem. Also, since these are NPN, that will not integrate easily with the BCS. You could either use a pullup resistor on the output and have the BCS read the OFF signal when the fluid is above the sensor. In my case, I used a DIN mounted reed relay. My sensor is powered by 24V so the relay easily isolates the sensor from the BCS. And since switching speed/frequency is no issue, a relay is fine.

-BD

WOW! What a perfect thread to hijack...

When I first noticed this, I had just cleaned off the workbench and dug up the parts for my control panel for this winter's project (spend summer in the hills) - including BCS 462 and E2K-L sensor. I have yet to settle on a schematic and may just end up drafting one myself. I expect to have the usual leftover parts that are generated when acquiring components piecemeal over time This should include some relays.

It is being built as 50A and will control last winter's project. HERMS single tier, 3 keggle, 2 pump propane/electric hybrid. Rig has passed leak and plumbing "dry" runs, but I still need to add the HSI for propane mode.

Initial thoughts were to mount sensor on DIY polycarbonate sightglass for MLT strike fill and then set level for fly sparge flow. Also pondering another sensor on HLT set to stop sparge flow when pre-boil volume is achieved.
This thread also has me thinking of float switch in BK to trigger it to fire when sparge output reaches safe level.

I would greatly appreciate any pics/diagrams/experience you can share regarding sensor configurations for BCS. I'd be happy to move this to new thread instead of polluting current one.

Thanks, Dale

 

[Namako]

I don't know about a boil coil but I can tell you what a regular element does when it fires dry. It makes light come out the top of your kettle brighter then the sun.

What?? No sparks?? I was hoping for sparks!!!

 

[TrickyDick]

WOW! What a perfect thread to hijack...

When I first noticed this, I had just cleaned off the workbench and dug up the parts for my control panel for this winter's project (spend summer in the hills) - including BCS 462 and E2K-L sensor. I have yet to settle on a schematic and may just end up drafting one myself. I expect to have the usual leftover parts that are generated when acquiring components piecemeal over time This should include some relays.

It is being built as 50A and will control last winter's project. HERMS single tier, 3 keggle, 2 pump propane/electric hybrid. Rig has passed leak and plumbing "dry" runs, but I still need to add the HSI for propane mode.

Initial thoughts were to mount sensor on DIY polycarbonate sightglass for MLT strike fill and then set level for fly sparge flow. Also pondering another sensor on HLT set to stop sparge flow when pre-boil volume is achieved.
This thread also has me thinking of float switch in BK to trigger it to fire when sparge output reaches safe level.

I would greatly appreciate any pics/diagrams/experience you can share regarding sensor configurations for BCS. I'd be happy to move this to new thread instead of polluting current one.

Thanks, Dale

Very cool.

From what I gather, the sensor you have will not work on metal tubing/pipe, so polycarbonate is probably a good choice as long as it won't cloud up and what not.
#Brundog says the NPN (which I think is the internal transistor type of the sensor) won't work with BCS out of the box. Plus it requires a low voltage DC power source. One thought I had was to use a mechanical relay or SSR with it, but I think Brundog has a more elegant solution.

For myself, the only reason I bought a BCS panel (because I know I couldn't wire it as well as a commercial source) instead of a Kal style PID/temp controller panel was because I wanted the ability to program the BCS to begin filling and heating the HLT remotely. In the future I might add further automation if I think it would help or save time. My water source is a 15 gallon RO tank, but the bladder inside that creates the dispense pressure knocks the volume down to about 12 gallons, which isn't enough for a 10 gallon batch on my old system. Once the tank is empty, it regenerates slowly, roughly a gallon per hour or so, perhaps a bit faster. Also, it dispenses through a filter (although I can bypass) the flow rate of which is very slow, and takes a long time to collect the full volume. Automated filling is a priority to me that will make my brewing experience much nicer. One consideration I have is that the water treatment for the mash and the sparge is different, and for reasons I still don't fully understand, the experts claim you should only add your treatment salts to room temp water, not strike temp water. Well, that seems to be a limitation of my plan. I will have to add the salts to the kettle prior to filling with water and subsequent heating, and then whatever additional salts called for in the mash will have to be added to the heated strike water, in spite of expert objection. I can't think of a way to automate recirculation since I don't have mechanical valves (except one for the fill water), which would also require a lot of additional expensive gadgetry and additional sensors. I understand also that the BCS cannot support flow sensors to calculate volume of liquid that has been pumped for instance from a HLT into a MLT. Seems I am rambling.

 

[augiedoggy]

The Boilcoil should tolerate a dryfiring for a short period of time just as all other ULWD elements will... The higher watt density elements overheat and hit the failure point of the internal insulation much quicker causing a meltdown and sometimes a light show. Since there is soo much surface area on a boilcoil to sprrad the energy over and aid in cooling I think it may work for quite a while in a dry environment similiar to the electric smoker elements it shares many similarities with..

I also used cheap eBay sourced float and flow switches for both my HLT and RIMS systems. So far they have worked as intended and the rims switch has saved me from forgetful disaster a couple times now.

 

[TrickyDick]

Have the fill valve all plumbed without leaks.
Have a bit of wiring to do for the panel to connect to the float switches and the fill valve, then I should be ready to brew.
Still need to get the panel programming restored, which at this point will hopefully be just a file download. Feel like a total DOPE in rushing through the forced authentication which I somehow screwed up, necessitating a hard reset.
Otherwise its ready to operate. first will get a general cleaning. One of these days I will also want to etch the volume markings into the BK and MLT. Not sure the best way to do so as yet. Also need to apply the volume marks on the HLT sightglass and calibrate I suppose.

I have been following #poptarts build and he is using a lot more automation than I am. I am considering going to no sparge to save time perhaps. For cleanup, my plan was to disconnect from the panel and roll it outside for cleaning. The kettles (20 gal) barely fit into my sink.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Just look in the BCS setup on the DIN section and see if the float switches are listed. There's actually a decent probability that they are wired inline like Brundog first mentioned. If they're not listed in the BCS setup are and used in the programming, then they are definitely wired inline. Regardless of how they are wired right now, you should get a diagram from Ryan for future reference.

Nope. No data. Strangely there are some processes now there with various states, no inputs or outputs have been renamed. I attempted a restore from a json file for the 460 (mine uses the 462). Ryan may be off over the holidays. I haven't heard back from him yet.

edit - i did hear from him and have the correct restore file. outputs now all have names. Has a high level float as the only input. the low level is wired inline as you suspected. For now that will be bypassed until the replacement floats arrive (long story). Need to figure out how he wired the fill valve into the system yet.

I'll probably have to create my own process for this which would, when activated, supply dc voltage (valve can do a range of voltages from 3 to 24 I think) to the output pins wired to my electric ball valve. Water from the RO tank will begin to fill the HLT until the High Level float switch closes, and then the DC voltage to the valve will be turned off, and then the HLT coil will fire to heat and maintain the HLT to a preset temp that will be close to my initial strike temp but without recirculation of the HLT water during the heating since that would require me to physically be present to ensure the pumps are primed. I have the electric valve hooked to a TC adapter and plumbed into a Tee at the upper recirculation port for the HLT. I'll kink the tubing that connects the tee to the water pump outlet for when recirculation is going, but probably wouldn't matter much other than water entering the pump wouldn't get heated. In a 20 gallon HLT that won't make much impact once I begin recirculation. I should maybe consider a time-out on the pre-heat in case of an emergency, like 12 hours or something if that is possible.

 

[stevehaun]

I am pondering adding float switches to my HLT and BK to prevent dry firing my elements. In terms of wiring them, I was thinking about wiring them to the coil of the contactor controlling the element as opposed to the dc control of the SSR. Any thoughts to pros/cons of each approach? My contactors have 120 vac coils.

 

[TrickyDick]

I don't understand what you mean by contactor controlling the element.

Most float switches cannot handle high current, so that will be something to consider. Most only handle very low current.

 

[stevehaun]

My elements have a hard shut off with a contactor yet are controlled with PID and SSR. My contactor has 120 vac coil. If the float switch can't handle 120 vac, then I will need to use the SSR circuit.

 

[TrickyDick]

It is usually not the voltage, but the current (amperage). If the float switch is wired in series with the AC current supply that heats the element, it isn't going to work with any float switch I know of.

I still do not understand what you mean by hard shut off, contactor, and 120vac coil. Is this part of a mechanical relay?

 

[stevehaun]

Yes it is a mechanical relay - a definite purpose contactor - with a 120 vac coil. I think the coil uses less than 50 milliamps. I use the contactor to turn the element on/off but the element is controlled by the PID/SSR.

If you have an Ebrew Supply panel, you probably have several contactors in your panel which provide a hard on/off for your elements.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yes it is a mechanical relay - a definite purpose contactor - with a 120 vac coil. I think the coil uses less than 50 milliamps. I use the contactor to turn the element on/off but the element is controlled by the PID/SSR.

If you have an Ebrew Supply panel, you probably have several contactors in your panel which provide a hard on/off for your elements.

It has switches that permit AUTO (controlled by the BCS), OFF, or ON (manual obviously). The HLT coil also has a float switch that acts as a safety to prevent dry fire, via the SSR output. Not sure if it also works to prevent the Manual control.

TD