Flash boiler

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Kladue got ahead of me.

The SS shroud he is referring to is this. It was made and added yesterday. I will be making a new one so the dimensions in height will fit my keggle. On my new one I will also make the holes in the bottom smaller to slow flow down a bit. I can always make them larger later.

Even with such a short distance to the walls of the pot, there was a 10* difference between the two sections during heating.
P1010138-1.jpg


A pic of the boil
P1010136.jpg
 
beerthirty said:
Monti, I looked but could find the reason why you incorporated a shroud around the boil coils. Can you explain?
Click to expand...


The idea is based on the calendria style. The idea is to heat up the water inside the shroud at a faster rate. This will bring the liquid inside to a boil faster then the liquid outside the shroud. As the outside liquid is pulled in it comes to temp and boils. In my test piece I think I cut the holes in the bottom too big, so the next one will have much smaller holes in it for a bigger difference in temp. As it is now while heating up the temp inside the shroud was 10* warmer then outside it. This stayed pretty linear through the heating process until it got to about 205*, then got a bit closer in temps. While boiling the temp inside the shroud stayed about 213*. It came to a boil a couple of min faster this way too.
 
Based on this, I know I had to much flow going through the shroud. Slowing things down to 7-12 times circulation rate, I should reach boil at a faster then I do now. SWEET.:D

"Many breweries have a boiling unit outside of the kettle, sometimes called a calandria, through which wort is pumped. The unit is usually a tall, thin cylinder, with many tubes upwards through it. These tubes provide an enormous surface area on which vapor bubbles can nucleate, and thus provides for excellent volitization. The total volume of wort is circulated seven to twelve times an hour through this external boiler, ensuring that the wort is evenly boiled by the end of the boil."
 
WortMonger said:
See, I don't know. This is what I would like to know. If I can blast super-heated steam through the exchanger on a full flow of wort through it too, I would be just as happy.
Click to expand...


I just got reading an article on the big boys, and how they boil their wort. It mentions problems created by passing the wort through a plate exchanger heated by steam causing coagulation of protein fractions. This is caused by the high temperature in the walls of the exchanger. Maybe Kladue mentioned this already and I forgot or over looked it.
 
Green Monti, can you calculate the surface area of you boiler coils? Or if anything what length of pipe was used and what diameter?

The reason why I ask is that when some people see an electric element their first thought is.
"oh my god, your going to scorch your wort! Your pils are going to look like stouts from all of the caramelization!"
Okay, maybe I am overstating it a bit but you see what I am saying.

I've searched the thread and have found not one mention of prophetic wort scorching. 40kW of heat transfer (using kaldue's number) over that surface area must be a pretty high watt/density. Since it is steam I imagine that it isn't linear across the coil either but that is a guess on my part. Any how, if it is pretty high compared to a HWD element I think we can finally throw the towel at 'wort scorching'. I mean after all, if this is how commercial breweries heat and boil how do they control their heating density?
See my point?

GM, I'm not even implying that I think your boiler will scorch. I don't think it will tbh. I'd like to see it dispell this damned monster under the bed once and for all! ;)
 
The calandra boiling method relies on the induced flow caused by the steam bubbles in the tubes to limit surface temperatures. The electric elements do not generate the flow that would reduce the surface temperatures to limit carmalization. If you used a pumped element circulation system that could overcome the surface heat problem associated with electric elements. I am waiting for new developments from GreenMonti in the steam boiling area which looks like an answer to some of the problems associated with indoor brew systems using LP.
 
Kladue, so you are saying that channeling the convection caused by the heating elements limits caramelization because the higher velocity permits less contact time?

So there is a minimum gpm per (Watts per sq inch ) ratio to be maintained. I wonder if a small venturi type shield around an element in a BK would give an appreciable increase in convective flow.

Don't want to derail anything, great thread. Just happened to pique a question.

Thanks again and please correct me if I am mistaken.
 
CodeRage said:
Kladue, so you are saying that channeling the convection caused by the heating elements limits caramelization because the higher velocity permits less contact time?

So there is a minimum gpm per (Watts per sq inch ) ratio to be maintained. I wonder if a small venturi type shield around an element in a BK would give an appreciable increase in convective flow.

Don't want to derail anything, great thread. Just happened to pique a question.

Thanks again and please correct me if I am mistaken.
Click to expand...

I think the elements and venturi tube have to be vertical to promote up flow around the element/coil. would greenmontis benefit from 4 smaller tubes, 1 around each coil, to concentrate the flow closer to the coil?

"GEA Brewery Systems has been relying on the internal boiler for wort boiling for a long time now. The internal boiler works on the basis of a purely physical principle: steam bubbles create a density difference between the wort in the internal boiler and the surrounding kettle, thus ensuring continuous circulation. This principle, also known as natural circulation, operates without additional circulation pump and minimizes mechanical stress on the wort."


Kind of like how a fire creats it's own draft the heating and upflow of hotter wort creates the natural circulation. Maybe one of the high watt density elements vertically in the bottom of the kettle with the venturi shield would promote the self circulation and cause no carmelization?

Jetstar_E_Page_7.jpg
 
The vertical shrouded element would be worth exploring as would copper wings attached to the element to increase heat flow. I suppose with a little effort there should be a formula that can predict surface temperature needed to dissapate the element heat into water. With a GreenMonti's viable continous output steam source constructed and tested, the next design build project is a scale calandra with 24 - 1/2" SS tubes inside a 4" OD SS tube shell 12" long. This should give 550+ square inches of heating surface to work with when inside tube area and outer tube outside area are combined. The unknown is how much the lower heat transfer rate of SS can be overcome with induced flow from boiling moving the liquid up the tubes and how forcefull the circulation will be.
 
WPS, looks kind of like the Merlin system some one was talking about not too long ago.

kladue, that tube and shell heat exchanger sound like it is going to be entirely bad ass. Can't wait to see it GM! Even if 1/2" is too big a plate with solid rods could be placed underneath it so the rods extend into the tubes occupying as much volume as necessary to permit a larger temp delta and higher velocities. I don't think it would be a big problem to address if it exists at all.

I must be honest.... I am a little disenchanted you didn't know the differential equation off the top of your head to calculate the acceleration of water due to convection from a known surface area, volume, and thermal input.... j/k :D

I am big into electric brewing but I find this (and other) steam systems fascinating. I'm really excited for you guys.
 
Sad to say but I have been away from the design and calculations for a significant period of time. I guess I will have to pitch the question to the daughter and see if I can get back some of the investment in her Chem E degree from CSM in Co. The hope is the scale calandra will open up the possibility of a single heat source based on GreenMonti's boiler that can be vented like a gas appliance and with proper safety systems be used indoors. I have a larger SS coil boiler that is vented to outside so I can brew in an 8' X 16' building without gassing myself in the process.
 
With a quick google, sugar doesnt caramelize until over 300º and since its a saturated steam mixture at about 5psi, the temperature will remain a constant 225ºF so there is no worry about sugars caramelizing. Quite handy really :)
 
I am really excited about this build. Both the boiler and this new exchanger. The drawing above is what we are trying to immulate. There are a lot of different ideas and plans of attack in my head. Your defiantly gonna want to stay tuned.
 
Ok, there are still parts that need to be acquired. I have some plates being laser cut for the exchanger tubes now. When they are done I should be able to proceed a bit more. However, here is a couple of pics to show a mock up of the build. Keep in mind this stuff is just placed and not built yet. Believe it or not, the main body was two pieces of tube. I welded them together and polished them. Enjoy.

Here is the general idea. I still need to cut down the "hat" size.
P1010164.jpg


A more close look of under the hat. The cone piece is a part I scavenged from work.
P1010165.jpg
 
haha, this thing keeps getting crazier and crazier...

I like it :rockin:

Also, if you could put some baffles in the heat exchanger, if possible on the steam side to increase turbulance and heat transfer. This might be as simple as using very dented pipe, just a thought
 
No need for dented pipe like dry gas applications, cooler surfaces are all that is needed for steam to flow (vapor pressure gradient). Cleaning will be the greater concern if the scaled down version operates like full sized unit and builds up protien deposits.
 
kladue said:
No need for dented pipe like dry gas applications, cooler surfaces are all that is needed for steam to flow (vapor pressure gradient).
Click to expand...

True, forgot about that part.
Still, probably not a bad idea on the liquid side though, coincident flow through that network of tubes if very likely to result in a laminar flow and less than optimal heat transfer.
 
Mista_Sparkle said:
True, forgot about that part.
Still, probably not a bad idea on the liquid side though, coincident flow through that network of tubes if very likely to result in a laminar flow and less than optimal heat transfer.
Click to expand...

I think laminar flow is desired to get the wort's velocity high enough to escape the baffle at the top. Reminds me of a scene from Willy Wonka....
 
WPStrassburg said:
you owe me a keyboard. Just finished drooling after 5 minutes and came back to earth. are you going back to one coil, or is that bigger than it looks?
Click to expand...

Nope. This will be just like your picture. The plates for the ends are being laser cut for the tubes inside for the heat exchange. Of course we wont be using the element in your picture.
Jetstar_E_Page_7.jpg
 
CodeRage said:
I think laminar flow is desired to get the wort's velocity high enough to escape the baffle at the top. Reminds me of a scene from Willy Wonka....
Click to expand...

hmm, I suppose that could go either way, with increased heat transfer through turbulence, you would have a higher density differential, however, you would also have a higher flow resistance so it could depend on the geometry...

I think its time for an experiment!!!
 
OK, I got the hat cut down. I also got rid of all the writing that is stamped on the top of a keg.

P1010166.jpg


Still just mocked up.
P1010167.jpg
 
On the topic of the flash boiler, I noticed a few runs ago that my coils were moving on me. It was mentioned to me by Kladue to tie the coils to the inner pipe with some copper wire. I wanted to see things move and to show everyone else thinking of making one of these that this should not be overlooked. I took it apart today so I could address this.

Here is a couple of shots of it.
P1010063-1.jpg

P1010064-1.jpg


Here it is now. You can see the copper wire I used to hold the coils in place. You'll also notice the coils are like they should be.
P1010066-1.jpg

P1010065.jpg
 
After the tuning runs with the stainless coil boiler and having to run nearly 100% to hold temperature at the higher flow rate, I think I will be copying your copper coiled boiler. The plan is to make 6 - 16' coils with 3-3" coils that are centered on water feed tube and 3 - 2-1/2" diameter coils that fit between centered coils and hopefully will fit in the existing 6" tube. Water feed will still be at the bottom and the outlet at the top to fit existing boiler connections, with increased burner clearance on the bottom. The plan is to fabricate and pressure test in Arizona, and ship it to Oregon to install during May R&R runs.
 
kladue said:
After the tuning runs with the stainless coil boiler and having to run nearly 100% to hold temperature at the higher flow rate, I think I will be copying your copper coiled boiler. The plan is to make 6 - 16' coils with 3-3" coils that are centered on water feed tube and 3 - 2-1/2" diameter coils that fit between centered coils and hopefully will fit in the existing 6" tube. Water feed will still be at the bottom and the outlet at the top to fit existing boiler connections, with increased burner clearance on the bottom. The plan is to fabricate and pressure test in Arizona, and ship it to Oregon to install during May R&R runs.
Click to expand...


I was thinking about this just today at work. Mine was a bit picky on the high flow rates too until I installed the preheat coil. With a total of 6 coils though, I would just about bet you wont need the preheat coil. Should be good. I would love to hear how it works.

I want to make a new boiler myself just to make one, and make it with compression fittings on the top and bottom. This would allow servicing one of the coils or replacing one of the coils should something get clogged or who knows what. If SS swage lock fittings were used it would make building the distribution blocks much easier. Like yours.
 
I have a design question about this, sorry if I missed the answer to this while reading the previous 28 pages. Is there a reason that the outflow of water doesn't move counter to the burner. It seems to me that the water would be more efficiently heated if the water input were at the top of the coils and ran down towards the burner, similar to a counter-flow chiller. Then out of the center pipe. When the water is converted to steam, would the back pressure be uneven or cause other problems?

This is a very well thought out system, and is a very appealing project. I'm just trying to understand it a little better.
 
TBrosBrewing said:
I have a design question about this, sorry if I missed the answer to this while reading the previous 28 pages. Is there a reason that the outflow of water doesn't move counter to the burner. It seems to me that the water would be more efficiently heated if the water input were at the top of the coils and ran down towards the burner, similar to a counter-flow chiller. Then out of the center pipe. When the water is converted to steam, would the back pressure be uneven or cause other problems?

This is a very well thought out system, and is a very appealing project. I'm just trying to understand it a little better.
Click to expand...


The reason for the flow the way it is is due to steam bubbles forming and blocking flow. The steam naturally wants out on a uphill path. So we are giving it that, and in turn we get a more smooth running system.
 
I tried to find it in this thread...

What is the BTU output of your burner?

Also, there was talk about superheated steam...

Doesn't super heated steam have a much lower heat transfer coefficient than saturated steam? How will that play a role in heating with the steam?

What is the final determination on if it can boil a kettle? What is the temp. rise time from say 60F to 160F? What have you calculated as the effective BTU transfer to the kettle? With the rated BTUs of the burner and the time to heat, is it effcient to heat a boil kettle in this manner? Considering time and cost of fuel?

I am trying to wrap my head around Kaludes boiler that produces 3-4 POUNDS of vapor per minute in the other thread... but the BTUs, time and such arent making any sense to me.

Thanks
 
willynilly said:
I tried to find it in this thread...

What is the BTU output of your burner?

Also, there was talk about superheated steam...

Doesn't super heated steam have a much lower heat transfer coefficient than saturated steam? How will that play a role in heating with the steam?

What is the final determination on if it can boil a kettle? What is the temp. rise time from say 60F to 160F? What have you calculated as the effective BTU transfer to the kettle? With the rated BTUs of the burner and the time to heat, is it effcient to heat a boil kettle in this manner? Considering time and cost of fuel?

I am trying to wrap my head around Kaludes boiler that produces 3-4 POUNDS of vapor per minute in the other thread... but the BTUs, time and such arent making any sense to me.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I need to send you a pm man.

My burner is a brinkmann and they claim 170,000 BTU/hr.
All the threads have the same boiler, I tried to stay on topic but it would appear that I can't do that very well.

The superheated steam is going to be used for the mash temp increases. Very little water input into the mash this way. It will be a direct injection into the recirculating mash.


Edit: As it stand now, I can heat water at .5GPM from 50 to 212 output instantly. I need to increase the flow so I can see how fast I can run it to get instant strike water at 160-170. Probably pretty quick. Then it will be turned down to either maintain or to do a step mash (the superheated steam) if I would like too. It will then give me instant sparge water. I will then kick it in the rear and do my boil with it. It will be a single heat source brewery when I am done.
 
I try to keep my inbox full, so I dont get PMs ;) What is up man?

When you are heating that .5GPM from 50F to 210F you are getting 664 BTUs per minute, so that is 39,840 BTU/hr heat source (equivilent)

664BTUs per minute / 110F temp rise = 6 pounds of water/min

160F output at that BTU rating: .73 GPM at the afore mentioned BTU output (39.8K BTUs)

664BTUs per minute / 120F temp rise = 5.5 pounds of water/min

170F output at that BTU rating: .66 GPM at the afore mentioned BTU output

That is the mathematical result, your results may vary.:D
 

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