Flame out hops vs whirlpool hops

[brew703]

Maybe this topic has been discussed and if so I apologize as I didn't find any posts.

I'll be brewing a NEIPA next weekend. First attempt at this style in over a year.

I will follow Braufessor's recipe but curious about the hop additions.

Read many articles on the style but trying to figure out why FO hops reflect no IBU contribution vs some contribution for WP hops. Brewers Friend has 10% utilization as default and the IBU contribution can be 10+ depending on amount and style.

If FO hops go in right after the heat is killed, then the wort temp is still at boiling or a little below. When WP hops are added, those hops go in at 180 and below. With that said, why does WP hops contribute to IBU's and FO hops do not?

From my experience, I haven't found that WP hops add anywhere near what the calculators show so normally I just ignore that part of the contribution and set the utilization to zero.

But for this style, when I add in the WP hops @ 10% utilization it increases the IBU's from 35 to almost 80. I just don't want to create a hop bomb that I cant drink.

 

[thehaze]

That is a good question.

But I can tell you that both flameout and whirlpool will add bitterness, although not as much or " assertive " as the one at 30 or 60 minutes.

I will say however that I do not think you would reach 10% utilization during whirlpool. I usually set mine at 3 or 5% and it seems to be OK.

 

[outdrosman]

I don't know the answer but my best guess is that they are making the assumption that flame out hops are being added right at flameout AND chilling is begun. Then the temperature would fall rapidly below conversion temp. and so contributing almost no IBU's. Whirlpool hops are assumed to be steeped above conversion temp for a while. Again, I'm not sure if that is the right answer. Hopefully somebody who knows more what they are talking about will chime in.

 

[RM-MN]

Hops do contribute to bittering if added at flameout. How much they add depends on how quickly you can cool the wort as they continue to add bittering until the wort goes below about (nobody is quite sure about the exact temp)170. If the calculators do not show a contribution due to flameout hops, it is a flaw in the calculator.

 

[Yooper]

I don't know the answer but my best guess is that they are making the assumption that flame out hops are being added right at flameout AND chilling is begun. Then the temperature would fall rapidly below conversion temp. and so contributing almost no IBU's. Whirlpool hops are assumed to be steeped above conversion temp for a while. Again, I'm not sure if that is the right answer. Hopefully somebody who knows more what they are talking about will chime in.

Yes, that's it exactly. While we all have different chilling times, I was talking the other day to a guy who goes from flame out to yeast pitching temperatures in less than 10 minutes. Quick chilling means very little isomerization of the hops oils.

In whirlpool additions, you stop the chilling and hold the hops at a temp that will allow isomerization of hops oils, and the warmer the temperature, the more isomerization will occur. Holding at 180 for 20 minutes, for example, and then chilling will allow quite a bit of bittering to happen.

 

[brew703]

Both Beersmith & Brewers Friend show zero for FO additions. I usually add my WP hops between 160-170. When adding 1 ounce each of Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy as a WP addition, BF shows IBU's but I don't feel that's accurate. And that's using 8% utilization. I think Beersmith is more than that.

Wanted to add that I chill down to 160-170 then add WP hops. Stir every 5 min. I don't hold at that temp. I let if ride for 20-30 minutes. At that point, I start my IC back to chill down to wherever I can get it. During this time, the hops stay in contact with the wort. When I start draining, I raise my hop bag, squeeze then discard.

 

[outdrosman]

I think part of the issue is that, at least in beersmith you can't specify how hot your whirlpool is. There are a lot of variables here and isomerization, from what I have read, still isn't fully understood.

Last time I tried a NEIPA I think I held the whirlpool too hot and got a super bitter hop bomb.

 

[brew703]

I think part of the issue is that, at least in beersmith you can't specify how hot your whirlpool is. There are a lot of variables here and isomerization, from what I have read, still isn't fully understood.

Last time I tried a NEIPA I think I held the whirlpool too hot and got a super bitter hop bomb.

That's what I'm trying to avoid. I quit brewing the style due to oxidation. Just got my keg system up and running and want to give it another try.

 

[outdrosman]

That's what I'm trying to avoid. I quit brewing the style due to oxidation. Just got my keg system up and running and want to give it another try.

Where do you think your oxidation came from?

 

[brew703]

Where do you think your oxidation came from?

Had to be from the amount of hops I used and the lack of a closed transfer.
I haven't had any oxidation issues with any other batch- only the NEIPA's.

 

[MT's AZ Ale Haus]

I've read SO many opinions on flameout time and temp, pro's and con's.

I read about Japanese brewing green tea and they brew at 160°-170° for optimal flavor.

I am going to use that at my target temp for flameout hop addition and let it steep for 10mins then run my ice chiller to cold crash the wort prior to sending it to the fermenting vessel.

 

[thehaze]

When I brew a beer with lots of hops, I do a whirlpool for 20-25 minutes starting at 158F / 70C. This means once the boil ended, I turn off the heat and I quickly cool the wort down. It takes me roughly 10-15 minutes, depending on the season, as I use well water to recirculate. Once I hit 158F, I dump my whirlpool hops, usually between 3.5 and 8 oz and create a gentle whirlpool with my paddle. I let it sit for 10-15 minutes. I come back and do repeat. What wort goes then in the fermenter is very clear and I never have more than 0.7-1 inch of trub in my Speidel fermenters.

 

[divrack]

yea that always bugged me. new update to beersmith mobile allows you to specify temperature and time of steep additions, so you can do it that way. if ive added a five or ten min addition i also enter a corresponding ghost amount as the existing hops will also be steeping but are not otherwise counted

 

[GPP33]

Can’t remember the website but I saw a study where they actually measured IBUs for whirlpools down to 145 or sonething. Basically no change in IBU if I remember correctly.

 

[ProblemChild]

my guess on why Beersmith calculates zero for Flameout is that they treat it as "Add hops - chill immediately" so as soon as the hops are added, the wort is chilled below isomerization temps and the IBU's from that are negligible.

Anymore, I choose a hop stand at a set temp at or below 170°F. The latest beersmith revision seems to calculate the hop additions well in a hopstand/whirlpool and the taste seems to match IBU's predicted.

 

[thehaze]

Taste wise, I can definitely tell that whirlpool hops add a bit of perceived bitterness ( not neccessarily calculated bitterness ), but is very, very little when compared with how much hops I usually add. And this is even at 158F and lower.

Brewer'sFriend lets you choose the utilisation % for whirlpool additions when building recipes and I choose 3% at 70C/158F. Temperature does not make any change in Brewer'sFriend, so utilisaton % is what I look for. 90% of the time, 3% is OK. Once in a while, the bitterness perceived in the end beer will be greater than the calculated IBUs, but I've noticed it appear when using more than 7 oz hops at 158F.

 

[mongoose33]

I think we're missing the mark here. Bittering comes primarily from Alpha Acids, but they must go through a process called Isomerization to be converted to bittering compounds. This takes time.

I've attached a chart below showing the percentage bittering achieved versus time. You can see that if you have hops in for an hour--a typical brewing boil--you'll get most of what there is to get in terms of bittering.

Toss them in at 10 minutes (as I did yesterday with some hops) and you'll get some bittering but mostly flavor additions and some aroma. Toss them in at flameout or whirlpool and immediately chill the wort? You'll get almost nothing in terms of bitterness.

Flavor and aroma compounds are volatile; they'll boil off if you give them a chance, which is why we many times add hops late in the boil or at flameout--or we dry hop. We don't add flavor or aroma additions at 60 minutes because those characterisics will boil off.

Now, don't take the graph below as gospel for everything--utilization is influenced by things like the gravity of the beer. But it makes the general point, which is why we get little bittering out of late additions, and why some brewing software accounts for it that way.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I think we're missing the mark here. Bittering comes primarily from Alpha Acids, but they must go through a process called Isomerization to be converted to bittering compounds. This takes time.

I've attached a chart below showing the percentage bittering achieved versus time. You can see that if you have hops in for an hour--a typical brewing boil--you'll get most of what there is to get in terms of bittering.

Toss them in at 10 minutes (as I did yesterday with some hops) and you'll get some bittering but mostly flavor additions and some aroma. Toss them in at flameout or whirlpool and immediately chill the wort? You'll get almost nothing in terms of bitterness.

Flavor and aroma compounds are volatile; they'll boil off if you give them a chance, which is why we many times add hops late in the boil or at flameout--or we dry hop. We don't add flavor or aroma additions at 60 minutes because those characterisics will boil off.

Now, don't take the graph below as gospel for everything--utilization is influenced by things like the gravity of the beer. But it makes the general point, which is why we get little bittering out of late additions, and why some brewing software accounts for it that way.

View attachment 588169

A vast oversumplification that's known to not be nearly so clear cut.

Modern research shows even dry hopping imparts bitterness. And in some cases it can be significant.

Isomerization still occurs sub-boil and as low as 170-190F (depending on which source you read). Just less efficienctly.

Whirlpools are by definition sustained hot time. The difference between "flame out" and "whirlpool" to me is the immediate rapid chill- that's the only way the bitterness is truly negligible. Beyond that bitterness from whirlpool is a factor of how much, how hot, how long.

 

[Qhrumphf]

And as far as I'm concerned, the isomerization models are sketchy and the whirlpool models sketchier. Go by sensory at the end of the day.

 

[mongoose33]

A vast oversumplification that's known to not be nearly so clear cut.

Modern research shows even dry hopping imparts bitterness. And in some cases it can be significant.

Isomerization still occurs sub-boil and as low as 170-190F (depending on which source you read). Just less efficienctly.

Whirlpools are by definition sustained hot time. The difference between "flame out" and "whirlpool" to me is the immediate rapid chill- that's the only way the bitterness is truly negligible. Beyond that bitterness from whirlpool is a factor of how much, how hot, how long.

I didn't say it didn't, and if you had read my post carefully instead of trying to do whatever it is you did, you'd have noted my comment about chilling immediately.

Further, I noted that there were other things that influenced bittering such as the gravity of the wort.

Sometimes when we are trying to explain something, it's better to focus more on encouraging understanding than overcomplicating it. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[ProblemChild]

we are all kind of on the same side and arguing the same points I think....

 

[Qhrumphf]

Toss them in at flameout or whirlpool and immediately chill the wort? You'll get almost nothing in terms of bitterness.



View attachment 588169

I didn't say it didn't, and if you had read my post carefully instead of trying to do whatever it is you did, you'd have noted my comment about chilling immediately.

Further, I noted that there were other things that influenced bittering such as the gravity of the wort.

Sometimes when we are trying to explain something, it's better to focus more on encouraging understanding than overcomplicating it. Wouldn't you agree?

I did. If you are immediately chilling, you're not whirlpooling. You're just chilling.

This is an incredibly complicated subject that is not well understood, and folks going to great lengths to assign numbers are tilting at windmills.

And kettle isomerization is only one piece (which you said, but you overstated it). In highly bitter old school IPAs it's a significant one. In nouveau low-bitterness heavy late hopped styles it's less. In an extreme example, a dry hopped, low IBU quick sour (say a dry hopped Berliner), the humulinone-derived (oxidized and NOT isomerized alphas) bitterness from the dry hops can far surpass any kettle hops.

My general advice- pick a single, consistent model, and go from there. Don't worry what the actual IBU number says, apart from relativity to other beers with your system and chosen model. Different systems will produce different bitterness at different levels.

But generally hops at ANY time will add bitterness. Hotter, longer, more hop matter and higher alpha just mean more of it.

If your calculated IBUs for your chosen model on your system don't meet your sensory expectation, then adjust on those factors for the next batch and go from there.

Don't stress the IBU number. That's it.

 

[mongoose33]

I did. If you are immediately chilling, you're not whirlpooling. You're just chilling.

I brewed yesterday. I tossed in the whirlpool/flameout hops, and started whirlpooling immediately as I ran the wort through my counterflow chiller. I was doing both at the same time. Exit from the kettle from the dip tube, back into the kettle through the whirlpool arm.

This is an incredibly complicated subject that is not well understood, and folks going to great lengths to assign numbers are tilting at windmills.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but I think there tends to be an overemphasis on IBUs. I also wonder how much of this has to do with how new brewers are to the hobby. When I was new, I was pretty focused on numbers as indicative of how i was doing. IBUs, gravity, efficiency, etc. Now, not so much, but it's not hard to see why newer brewers would focus on this--it's kind of a touchstone where there is so much that seems complicated, at least if you want to delve deeply into it.

And kettle isomerization is only one piece (which you said, but you overstated it).

We're going to have to disagree on that. I was responding to a specific set of issues, and I certainly wasn't writing a treatise on bittering. You could tell that much of the conversation lacked a fundamental understanding of bittering, i.e., why we put some hops in at 60 minutes and why others go in late. I would not say that's overstating it.

In highly bitter old school IPAs it's a significant one. In nouveau low-bitterness heavy late hopped styles it's less. In an extreme example, a dry hopped, low IBU quick sour (say a dry hopped Berliner), the humulinone-derived (oxidized and NOT isomerized alphas) bitterness from the dry hops can far surpass any kettle hops.

Of course, but then it's a treatise and not likely anything newer brewers can use. When I try to explain things, I try to bring it to the level the learner is at and go from there. And since we were talking about flameout and whirlpooling, my answer was appropriate for the issue at hand.

My general advice- pick a single, consistent model, and go from there. Don't worry what the actual IBU number says, apart from relativity to other beers with your system and chosen model. Different systems will produce different bitterness at different levels.

But generally hops at ANY time will add bitterness. Hotter, longer, more hop matter and higher alpha just mean more of it.

If your calculated IBUs for your chosen model on your system don't meet your sensory expectation, then adjust on those factors for the next batch and go from there.

Don't stress the IBU number. That's it.

I generally agree but late hops don't add that much if you're chilling fast. And the idea that late hops add no bitterness? The point of the chart I used was to show what happens generally. It works for demonstrating that.

 

[bleme]

I've done 2 beers with ONLY whirlpool and dry hops so I can definitively state that whirlpooling can add considerable bitterness. In both beers I was aiming for about 40 IBU's and I think I got pretty close. It is all a matter of time and temp.

Personally, I prefer whirlpooling to flame-out additions because it is easier for me to calculate and hit my goals. My cooling is a little inconsistent so it is easier for me to figure IBU's when held at 180F and then cooling to 160F than it is to figure IBU's through the whole range from 212F to 160F.

I also don't count swirling while you chill as whirlpooling, even though it technically is. For me, whirlpooling requires holding at a set temp for a set time.

 

[divrack]

I think we're missing the mark here. Bittering comes primarily from Alpha Acids, but they must go through a process called Isomerization to be converted to bittering compounds. This takes time.

I've attached a chart below showing the percentage bittering achieved versus time. You can see that if you have hops in for an hour--a typical brewing boil--you'll get most of what there is to get in terms of bittering.

Toss them in at 10 minutes (as I did yesterday with some hops) and you'll get some bittering but mostly flavor additions and some aroma. Toss them in at flameout or whirlpool and immediately chill the wort? You'll get almost nothing in terms of bitterness.

Flavor and aroma compounds are volatile; they'll boil off if you give them a chance, which is why we many times add hops late in the boil or at flameout--or we dry hop. We don't add flavor or aroma additions at 60 minutes because those characterisics will boil off.

Now, don't take the graph below as gospel for everything--utilization is influenced by things like the gravity of the beer. But it makes the general point, which is why we get little bittering out of late additions, and why some brewing software accounts for it that way.

View attachment 588169

That's true except in the extremes. You can get a bitter beer with zero boil hops, trust me. It's pretty complicated though, same hops added to a bittered wort won't do much.

 

[Jaybird]

Just to chime in a little. I have been brewing NEIPA's almost exclusively for the last year and a few things I have seen when it comes to the bitterness levels. Keep in mind this is ONLY my opinion not FACTS. I feel as though some of the perceived bitterness is coming from the dry hopping we are doing with pellet and Cryo hops. Because the beers are cloudy and have that several compounds still in suspension they tend to hold onto the hops fines in the beer and those fines are what we are consuming adding to the bitterness levels. How do I figure you ask? Good question. I have done several batches where I dry hop the exact same base beer and split with Pellet, then Cryo and also whole hops. I will never let the dry hops stay longer than 5 days total for the process. What I am tasting is the whole hop beers have a BOATLOAD less perceived bitterness in the beer. It is also WAY easier to get the entire whole hop out where as the pellets take a LOT longer to drop out and actually get out of the finished beer. Anyway just thought I would add my .02 may be a little of track but there ya go.
On the whirlpool additions for my NEIPA's I am not adding a single hop to my beers these days till I am at 170*F and go from there.
Good luck! The thing I am LOVING about this style is that they are a total blast to make! SUPER SIMPLE and you really can't mess em' up!
as a side note form a few of the Pro's I know their input is simply WATER, WATER, WATER! The water needs to be built!

Cheers
Jay

 

[wepeeler]

Like Jay above me, I've been brewing NEIPAs almost exclusively for the past year. I've done every hop addition from 60 minute bittering to 30, 20, 10, 5 and 3, 2, 1 min additions, along with dry hopping. If you're concerned about a bitter bomb for a NEIPA, just skip boiling any hops except for bittering. I tend to use 0.65 oz or less of Warrior at 60 min to get "all" my bitterness, according to IBUs. As I've read in a few above posts, IBUs can be deceiving, not only because we all perceive them differently, but because they can also be misleading. Case in point would be Heady Topper. I read somewhere that the IBUs of Heady are over 100. I personally am not a huge fan of overly bitter NEIPAs, but I don't perceive Heady to be over 100 IBUs, whereas other people think it's a bitter hop bomb. With all that being said, for MY NEIPAs, I use only Warrior at 60 for my IBUs, and I add all my flavor and aroma hops after flameout, once I've cooled to 160. I add my hops, and continue to chill to pitch temp. Usually takes about 10 min to get to 160 and another 20 min or so to reach pitching temp. Never had any of my beers turn out too bitter. If anything, most of my friends ask me to add more bitterness. So, take from that what you will, but I think you'd be fine following the same or similar schedule.

As for the whirlpool vs flameout discussion, the perceived bitterness you get from each depends on temp and time held at said temp. Each equipment profile would be different. If you add directly after flameout, you will get some bitterness, but it depends on how fast you chill. If you let it cool to room temp on it's own, obviously you'd get considerable more bitterness than if you chilled to pitch temp in 10 minutes. Personally I have never ever whirlpooled so I can't comment on how much perceived bitterness is extracted via a whirlpool, but again, it would depend on the temp you settle on and how long you hold at that temp.

 

[specharka]

The long and short of it is that there are differences between perceived bitterness and measured bitterness. Whenever it comes to sensory perception of bitterness in heavily-hopped late additions, the calculated IBU metric is not really a valid measure of bitterness. You could take two identical beers with the same grainbill, yeast, and IBU count, and simply alter the hopping schedule and come up with two radically different beers in terms of sensory perception of bitterness.

If we’re talking boiling additions only, the IBU metric translates well. As soon as you start adding whirlpool and dry hop additions, that analogue goes out the window. I’ve posted this article before, and it’s becoming more and more relevant:

https://beerandbrewing.com/rethinking-bitterness-in-dry-hopped-hazy-beers/