First Two Brews on the new eBIAB System

[k-os]

So far I've done two brews on an eBIAB system I put together. It consists of a Spike Kettle, 5500W Element, Wilser Bag, False Bottom to keep the bag off the element, MKII Pump to recirculate during mash, Steam Slayer, and an Electric Brewing Supply control panel. I'm using Brewfather to setup recipes and use for the timers. I've got my equipment setup and measured the amount of loss through the hoses, pump, and chiller when transferring to the fermenter. I have my boil-off rate set to 0.5 gal/hr according to what other people using the Steam Slayer have experienced, and it seems pretty good after these two batches. I had Ward Labs do a water test on the water I am brewing with and am using the Water Adjustment wizard in Brewfather for epsom salt, gypsum, and calcium chloride additions in the mash. What I am curious about is when my overall efficiencies have been pretty low. My equipment profile in Brewfather is setup for 72%, just based on what I've seen others get with full volume BIAB. Below I'll post some screenshots of the batch results in Brewfather. I'd love to see if anyone has an suggestions on what I can do to increase the efficiency. Also as a note: The below beers were brewed from the very cheap MoreBeer all grain (unmilled base malts) from Amazon. Is it possible the grains are old and reducing the efficiency?

Grain Crush: Cereal Killer Mill set to 0.025"

First Batch: Columbus IPA from MoreBeer
Notes: Mash pH measured to be 5.75 @ 153F (I realize now I don't think my pH meter is calibrated to handle temperatures this high), did not stir the mash at all other than when initially mashing in. No bag squeeze.

Second Batch: Blonde Ale from MoreBeer
Notes: Mash pH measured to be 5.62 @ 88.7F, added 4mL of 88% lactic acid to get to this. Stirred the mash every 15 minutes. No bag squeeze.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I have never heard of old grains reducing efficiency.

Assuming your measurements are all accurate, the low Mash Efficiency is the place to start. Your grain crush looks good. The mash pH might be an issue, though my experience has been more with mash pH issue impacting fermentability more than efficiency/OG. Are you doing 60 minute mashes?

It looks a little suspicious how close your Mash Efficiency and Brewhouse Efficiency are (in once case, Brewhouse is a little higher). I am still playing around with my process since I moved to BIAB last Dec, but generally my Mash Efficiency is 75% to 90% (higher when doing a sparge) and my Brewhouse is 5% to 10% below that.

 

[k-os]

I have never heard of old grains reducing efficiency.

Assuming your measurements are all accurate, the low Mash Efficiency is the place to start. Your grain crush looks good. The mash pH might be an issue, though my experience has been more with mash pH issue impacting fermentability more than efficiency/OG. Are you doing 60 minute mashes?

It looks a little suspicious how close your Mash Efficiency and Brewhouse Efficiency are (in once case, Brewhouse is a little higher). I am still playing around with my process since I moved to BIAB last Dec, but generally my Mash Efficiency is 75% to 90% (higher when doing a sparge) and my Brewhouse is 5% to 10% below that.

Yes, these have been 60 minutes mashed. I’ve been using the markings on the inside of the kettle and fermenters (Anvil Stainless) so the volumes may not be 100% accurate. I’m going to fill my kettle while weighing out water 1/2 gallon at a time to check the accuracy of the markings.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Is it normal for biab recirculating Brewers to mill that tight? Take this with a grain of salt as I have zero experience recirculating with a biab system however I use a traditional recirculating mash setup and if I milled that tight it would cause all kinds of efficiency issue I imagine as it would cause alot of channeling. Possibly your recirculating wort is just going around the bag and because I imagine you aren't stirring your mash your getting poor efficiency? Cheers

 

[k-os]

Is it normal for biab recirculating Brewers to mill that tight? Take this with a grain of salt as I have zero experience recirculating with a biab system however I use a traditional recirculating mash setup and if I milled that tight it would cause all kinds of efficiency issue I imagine as it would cause alot of channeling. Possibly your recirculating wort is just going around the bag and because I imagine you aren't stirring your mash your getting poor efficiency? Cheers

From what I’ve seen .025” is a pretty standard gap people are using, or double crushing if they can’t set it that tight or don’t have their own mill. The first brew (Columbus IPA) I didn’t stir during the mash, however I did in the second (Blonde Ale) with the hope that it would improve the efficiency.

 

[cswant88]

Hmm. I was going to suggest along the same lines as blazinlow, and say give it a good stir every 10-15 minutes. It sounded to me like a potential recirculation issue with the fine crush. If you've ruled that out, it could be that you're leaving behind some of that sweet goodness. Try giving the bag a good squeeze.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I brewed 3 similar kits (Morebeer single hop experiment, unmilled through Amazon). I do BIAB but I don't recirculate at all, I use propane, and I don't have a steam slayer. So it's just standard BIAB. I use .025" on the cereal killer and I've had no problems with the kits. My grain looks similar to yours after I mill it, and I just pour it into the kettle, stir for a minute or so, then cover it and do something else for an hour.

I don't have the data in front of me, but I think my brewhouse efficiency was somewhere around 80% with each kit.

 

[LittleRiver]

Try a batch without recirculating, using the same grain with the same .025" mill gap.

Stir well when you dough in, turn off the power, put the lid on, insulate the kettle, and don't touch it for an hour. If we were taking bets, I'd put money on your efficiency going up.

If it does, you can sell your pump, or maybe use it in your chilling system.

Or you could muck around with your grain crush, your flow rate, adding rice hulls, etc, to try to get it to work during the mash.....but why?

 

[k-os]

Try a batch without recirculating, using the same grain with the same .025" mill gap.

Stir well when you dough in, turn off the power, put the lid on, insulate the kettle, and don't touch it for an hour. If we were taking bets, I'd put money on your efficiency going up.

If it does, you can sell your pump, or maybe use it in your chilling system.

Or you could muck around with your grain crush, your flow rate, adding rice hulls, etc, to try to get it to work during the mash.....but why?

These two batches I've been leaving the lid on with it recirculating through a spray nozzle in the lid. Power on the controller is on and the PID is set to my mash temp to hold it.

Next brew I'll try squeezing the bag. I should have my pulley setup by then. These first two brews I was just holding the bag above the kettle for around 5 minutes as it drained.

 

[LittleRiver]

These two batches I've been leaving the lid on with it recirculating through a spray nozzle in the lid. Power on the controller is on and the PID is set to my mash temp to hold it.

Next brew I'll try squeezing the bag. I should have my pulley setup by then. These first two brews I was just holding the bag above the kettle for around 5 minutes as it drained.

I know you have some shiny new hardware and that you want to use it. There's nothing wrong with that if it makes you happy. But don't confuse that with what you need to make good beer and do it efficiently (in all of the contexts of that word).

What I said above was basically a challenge, to show you that you don't need the pump, the false bottom, or PID control of mash temps to efficiently make great beer. Getting rid of them gets rid of their attendant problems (including the need to clean them).

If you are crushing at .025, then conversion is probably over within 10-15min. All you really need to hold temps stable for that long is some insulation. Mash longer than 10-15min for flavor, but you don't have to be so concerned then about temps since the enzymes are done.

If you are dead set on re-circulating during the mash, read what @Blazinlow86 said above. You are probably not getting good circulation through the mash because of channeling, caused by your grain being milled too finely to work with re-circulation.

You've got a reservoir of water below your false bottom that's not in contact with the grains. That's one hit against you. You are pumping from that reservoir and expecting it to flow through something it can't, so the flow makes channels (think of them as pipes) where liquid flows past your grains back to the reservoir, rather than evenly flowing through the grain. That's another hit against you. You're going to need to widen your mill gap, maybe add rice hulls, and probably tweak your re-circulation rate.

Or just get rid of the pump and false bottom, and do a full volume mash with your current .025 crush. Try it, you'll like it.

You mentioned you are going to set up a way to hang your bag. Let it hang over the kettle for the entire boil. That will eliminate the need to squeeze it. Another benefit is by then it is cooler & lighter, thus easier to handle for disposal.

 

[k-os]

I know you have some shiny new hardware and that you want to use it. There's nothing wrong with that if it makes you happy. But don't confuse that with what you need to make good beer and do it efficiently (in all of the contexts of that word).

What I said above was basically a challenge, to show you that you don't need the pump, the false bottom, or PID control of mash temps to efficiently make great beer. Getting rid of them gets rid of their attendant problems (including the need to clean them).

If you are crushing at .025, then conversion is probably over within 10-15min. All you really need to hold temps stable for that long is some insulation. Mash longer than 10-15min for flavor, but you don't have to be so concerned then about temps since the enzymes are done.

If you are dead set on re-circulating during the mash, read what @Blazinlow86 said above. You are probably not getting good circulation through the mash because of channeling, caused by your grain being milled too finely to work with re-circulation.

You've got a reservoir of water below your false bottom that's not in contact with the grains. That's one hit against you. You are pumping from that reservoir and expecting it to flow through something it can't, so the flow makes channels (think of them as pipes) where liquid flows past your grains back to the reservoir, rather than evenly flowing through the grain. That's another hit against you. You're going to need to widen your mill gap, maybe add rice hulls, and probably tweak your re-circulation rate.

Or just get rid of the pump and false bottom, and do a full volume mash with your current .025 crush. Try it, you'll like it.

You mentioned you are going to set up a way to hang your bag. Let it hang over the kettle for the entire boil. That will eliminate the need to squeeze it. Another benefit is by then it is cooler & lighter, thus easier to handle for disposal.

I'll give it a try without the recirculating and turning the controls off. Unfortunately due to where I am brewing (basement) I can't leave the bag hanging over during the boil.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I know you have some shiny new hardware and that you want to use it. There's nothing wrong with that if it makes you happy. But don't confuse that with what you need to make good beer and do it efficiently (in all of the contexts of that word).

I agree here. I have never used a recirculating system. I get the desire for brewing 15 gals using a 3 vessel system...I get the idea behind these all-in-one electric systems...I brewed for many years on a simple fly sparge system (I moved to BIAB back in Dec)...I just do not get the appeal of these recirculating systems. When I moved to BIAB I was worried about efficiency so I did everything I could think of to boost my efficiency...and my same 75% efficiency 6% ABV fly sparge beers were clocking in at 7% with 90% mash efficiency! Just crush the grain fine, set the mash temp, wrap with some insulation...and that is all it takes to get 75% to 80% mash efficiency.

 

[k-os]

I'm setup to do a Citra Session this afternoon. I weighed out 7 gallons of water (0.5 gallons at a time) and confirmed that the volume markings on my kettle are accurate.

Got my water filled in the kettle without the false bottom in, grains weighed out and ready to crush and get grain temperature so I can heat to my strike temp. I'll be doing a full volume mash without recirculating as suggested and wrapping the kettle in an old blanket. After mashing I'll raise the bag with a pulley and squeeze it. Will hook the pump and chiller up while I am boiling so I can sterilize the last 10 minutes and chill down after boil is complete. Once again I'll be keeping track of my volumes at each stage and gravity readings pre-boil and post-boil.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions!

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

75% is average and your at 72% I wouldnt worry about it. There is no rule that says "let me get the best efficiency" Just adjust your grain a tad.

Grain looks good.

Try sticking a gift card without raised numbers between the rollers and slide it up and down. Adjust till the rollers move with the card without forcing the card....that should be the perfect setting...Dont trust the numbers on the mill

Hate to bust your bubble but recirculating isnt going to change a thing and not needed at all in homebrewing....try this batch without recirculating at see what happens...a quick stir to break up the grain when you dump them in is really all you need. A quick stir for the fun of it here or there wont hurt.

 

[k-os]

75% is average and your at 72% I wouldnt worry about it. There is no rule that says "let me get the best efficiency" Just adjust your grain a tad.

Grain looks good.

Try sticking a gift card without raised numbers between the rollers and slide it up and down. Adjust till the rollers move with the card without forcing the card....that should be the perfect setting...Dont trust the numbers on the mill

72% was the planned efficiency and I was at 66% on both these first two batches. My grain mill gap was set as you described, with an old non-raised number credit card.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

72% was the planned efficiency and I was at 66% on both these first two batches. My grain mill gap was set as you described, with an old non-raised number credit card.

Did tyou catch my edit about not recirculating....give it a shot

 

[k-os]

Did tyou catch my edit about not recirculating....give it a shot

Yep, my plan for this batch I'm brewing tonight is to not recirculate during the mash.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Yep, my plan for this batch I'm brewing tonight is to not recirculate during the mash.

I brew indoors and stream is a concern. I switched to a 30 minutes boil a while back and had no ill effect on the beer and is now my normal routine...something else to try

How does the steam killer work?
Is it worth it?

 

[LittleRiver]

...grain mill gap was set as you described, with an old non-raised number credit card.

Feeler gauges are well worth their minimal expense. Combine different tabs to get the thickness you want. You'll know the exact setting, and be able to repeat it if you ever change your mill, get another mill, misplace that old credit card, etc.

 

[k-os]

I brew indoors and stream is a concern. I switched to a 30 minutes boil a while back and had no ill effect on the beer and is now my normal routine...something else to try

How does the steam killer work?
Is it worth it?

It's been working really well for me. I'm doing 60 minute boils and the condenser collects around 10 gallons of water over that time (just draining into five gallon buckets right now and swapping halfway through the boil). The only steam I'm getting during the brew is from the hot (condensed) water draining into the buckets. I was getting some condensation on my main cold water supply line but I've since wrapped that in insulation.

Feeler gauges are well worth their minimal expense. Combine different tabs to get the thickness you want. You'll know the exact setting, and be able to repeat it if you ever change your mill, get another mill, misplace that old credit card, etc.

I've got a set of feeler gauges in the garage. Just used the old credit card for now to get started, but I can double-check it with the feeler gauges to get a more accurate gap measurement.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Hate to bust your bubble but recirculating isnt going to change a thing and not needed at all in homebrewing....try this batch without recirculating at see what happens...a quick stir to break up the grain when you dump them in is really all you need. A quick stir for the fun of it here or there wont hurt.

I wouldn't say it's not needed at all. If you want to do step mashes (especially with multiple steps), a recirculating rig is ideal.

 

[k-os]

Had some interesting results with yesterday's Citra Session brew. I heated my strike water to 153 (calculated in Brewfather) and mashed-in. Temperature was low after mashing in so I raised the bag and heated the water a bit to get it closer to 148. Wrapped it in an old blanket and let it sit for 60 minutes. After mash I raised the bag, let it drain, and then squeezed it a moderate amount afterwards. Looks like I'll need to adjust my grain absorption rate a bit as my pre-boil volume was a little low. Interestingly my pre-boil gravity was also low. My mash pH is high, but I'm not sure if that was the only factor.

I think next brew (probably next Tuesday) I'm going to go back to a false bottom and recirculate, but reduce the re-circulation rate to try to make sure it's washing the sugars out, rather than flow around the grain. I'm also going to squeeze the bag after mash to see how well it helps.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Not sure if it is covered already, but how are you taking your pre-boil gravity? Refractometer? Hydrometer? If hydrometer, are you cooling the sample or measuring and correcting based on the temp? Are you using the same device for all your gravity readings?

Interesting that your Mash Efficiency and Brewhouse Efficiency did not move much between these two processes. I follow a pretty simple BIAB process and get around 75% efficiency. A consistent 65% efficiency is not the worst thing, but I feel like you should be able to get higher.

 

[k-os]

Not sure if it is covered already, but how are you taking your pre-boil gravity? Refractometer? Hydrometer? If hydrometer, are you cooling the sample or measuring and correcting based on the temp? Are you using the same device for all your gravity readings?

Interesting that your Mash Efficiency and Brewhouse Efficiency did not move much between these two processes. I follow a pretty simple BIAB process and get around 75% efficiency. A consistent 65% efficiency is not the worst thing, but I feel like you should be able to get higher.

I'm using a refractometer for pre-boil and post-boil. I'm also using a hydrometer post-boil so I can build up a set of data for a correction factor to use the refractometer for final gravity.

 

[neon0107]

I use brew father also (love it!!) and have found my efficiency went up after some advice to squeeze the bag like your life depended on it. Also I use these numbers for my grain absorption that another member advised to try and my numbers have been very good last to brews.

 

[JoeyChestnutFan]

How are you measuring pH? You can try building water with RO/Distilled + salts, to eliminate any potential water issues. Also, how are you measuring your temp? Where is the probe and have you verified it with another thermometer?

 

[k-os]

How are you measuring pH? You can try building water with RO/Distilled + salts, to eliminate any potential water issues. Also, how are you measuring your temp? Where is the probe and have you verified it with another thermometer?

I'm using an Apera PH60 meter. Taking a sample from my recirculating line around 10-15 minutes into the mash and place the dish in a bowl of cold water to chill it. If I need to add any lactic acid I add it 1mL at a time and let it recirculate for a few minutes before pulling another sample to check pH. The temp probe is close to my pickup tube for the front drain that supplies wort to the pump. I did another auto-tune on the system yesterday before brewing a porter, but didn't double check with my Thermopen yesterday.

 

[dnye]

@k-os did you ever get any efficiency improvements? I have a similar set up to you and have had similar efficiency woes. Curious if you ever found any solutions?

 

[k-os]

@k-os did you ever get any efficiency improvements? I have a similar set up to you and have had similar efficiency woes. Curious if you ever found any solutions?

Not consistently. I changed my Brewhouse Efficiency to 66% in Brewfather and have brewed 2 beers since then. One was a Porter that came in at 64% and a Centennial Pale Ale with Kveik that was at 70%. I'll be doing a Barleywine this weekend with 17lb of grain. I'll be checking my temperature probe accuracy again and compare to my Thermopen as I believe it is reading the temperature higher than it is (resulting in more attenuation than expected).