first two batches have a metalic/acid flavor. Help!

[cbfan87]

Hey everyone,

My first two batches are in bottles.

My first batch was AG northern brewers smashing pumkin with 3-4lbs of butternut squash and canned pumpkin added in the mash.

-Fermented 3 weeks in primary at 65 then bottled.
-Yeast was safale US-05

My second batch was AG nothern brewers carabou slobber.

-Fermented 3 weeks in primary at 65 then bottled.
-Yeast was Danstar Windsor.


The first batch is at two weeks in the bottle and seems be to carbed well, but has a really bold metalic acidic taste that you can feel on your tongue. It's hard for me to imagine this will age out. What could be that cause of this?

The second batch is a 1 week in the bottle (seems decently carbed) and has the same damn taste but a bit more muted.

The taste is more like a penny than vinegar if that helps.

Could it be contamination? too much star san?

Is this normal and will age out in a month?

 

[tstanonis1]

I think we need more information. Do you know what your fermentation temperature was? can you walk us through our brew day a bit? Mash temps, thickness, sparge water temp and amount. Grain bill and hops?

Are you tasting metallic, acid? or could it be green apple pear maybe?

What if anything are you doing to your water on brew day? Any filtering or additives?

How did you prepare your yeast? How are you aerating your wort?

 

[brewbama]

I'd look at water and/or your brew kettle

"Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

The protective (grayish) oxides of aluminum can be enhanced by heating the clean pot in a dry oven at 250°F for about 6 hours." John Palmer - How to Brew

 

[cbfan87]

I think we need more information. Do you know what your fermentation temperature was? can you walk us through our brew day a bit? Mash temps, thickness, sparge water temp and amount. Grain bill and hops?

Are you tasting metallic, acid? or could it be green apple pear maybe?

What if anything are you doing to your water on brew day? Any filtering or additives?

How did you prepare your yeast? How are you aerating your wort?

It's definitely similar to tasting a penny, that sort of sour taste, you could say its similar to green apple, I don't get any pear. It's a sharp sorta taste and it makes my tongue water.

Fermentation temps were mentioned above, used a chest freezer with temperature controller set to 65, 1 degree differential.

Sparge water was on the cooler side (150-165) for the pumpkin partially because that took so darn long to sparge, (3 ~hrs) so the water started to cool down by the end of the sparge.

For the caribou slobber the sparge water was 169-170. sparge took about 30 mins.

I pitched the yeast dry right out of the packet in both cases, directly into the carboy.

I aerated the wort with one of the aeration wands attached to an oxygen tank from home-depot.


The water was bottled spring water from the grocery store. I did not add anything to it.


Thank you!

 

[cbfan87]

I'd look at water and/or your brew kettle

"Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

The protective (grayish) oxides of aluminum can be enhanced by heating the clean pot in a dry oven at 250°F for about 6 hours." John Palmer - How to Brew

un-conditioned spring water and I'm using an all stainless brew kettle.

 

[d3track]

What sanitizer are you using

 

[cbfan87]

What sanitizer are you using

star-san, liberally

 

[tstanonis1]

looking at the two recipes I don't see how the taste could be common among both beer as they are completely different. your sparge water temp is low enough as to avoid tannins, unless your mash ph is off or you sparged below 1.010 sg.

your using stainless equipment so that shouldn't be it. your fermenting with refrigeration at a controlled setpoint so there goes that. Iron content in the spring water? maybe the cause of the penny like taste? try a different water source next time and see. maybe distilled water? or tap water.

if it is a green taste, green apple, pear type taste. then it should clear up with time. that would be Acetaldehyde and the yeast will clean that up eventually...

only other things i can think of is a stray bacteria or something. hopefully it's not a sanitation issue. only time will tell on that one. if it gets worse then that prolly your problem.

here is a link for troubleshooting flavors from morebeer.com

http://www.morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

 

[EtchyLives]

The one time I had this issue I was confused... until I caught myself on the next batch accidentally using Oxyclean solution to sanitize instead of Star-San solution. I kept two buckets, one with each solution, in my kitchen during bottling and as far as I can tell I used the wrong solution inadvertently.

I caught myself doing it a second time so it's possible that you did the same thing.

I never had the issue again so it's my best guess.

 

[cbfan87]

The one time I had this issue I was confused... until I caught myself on the next batch accidentally using Oxyclean solution to sanitize instead of Star-San solution. I kept two buckets, one with each solution, in my kitchen during bottling and as far as I can tell I used the wrong solution inadvertently.

I caught myself doing it a second time so it's possible that you did the same thing.

I never had the issue again so it's my best guess.

Definatey used star-san as the last rinse, though the first batch's bottles did get washed heavily with oxyclean, as they were used bottles


Second batch was all brand new bottles only rinsed them out and ran them through a rinse cycle in the dish washer. (then did a star-san rinse prior to filling)

so first batch I could see maybe some oxy residue being a concern, but definately not the second.

Thanks

 

[EtchyLives]

No problem. My one other potential problem was my bottling bucket. It was old so I replaced that as well. So by making sure I didn't have any Oxyclean around the kitchen and replacing my bottling bucket I never had the same issue again. I can't say definitively which change fixed the problem but a new bottling bucket is relatively cheap insurance.

FYI: I tried to age the taste out of the beer and it didn't work. After 18 months of waiting there is still a distinctive metallic taste - so much so that I dumped the remaining bottles.

 

[cbfan87]

No problem. My one other potential problem was my bottling bucket. It was old so I replaced that as well. So by making sure I didn't have any Oxyclean around the kitchen and replacing my bottling bucket I never had the same issue again. I can't say definitively which change fixed the problem but a new bottling bucket is relatively cheap insurance.

FYI: I tried to age the taste out of the beer and it didn't work. After 18 months of waiting there is still a distinctive metallic taste - so much so that I dumped the remaining bottles.

ugh no fun, I have a feeling thats where my first one is going.

The second batch I still have hope for.

I'm just concerned because I really don't know what to change except for being extra thorough with cleaning and sanitizing.

I guess this next time around I will buy my grain from somewhere else and possibly treat the water.

 

[microbusbrewery]

star-san, liberally

Are you saying you used a lot of properly diluted Star San (I hope), or are you saying you may have mixed the solution too concentrated?

Using a lot of properly diluted Star San shouldn't be an issue assuming you drained most of it. I wouldn't recommend mixing it more concentrated though because if it's too concentrated it could cease being a no-rinse sanitizer.

I'm having a hard time understanding your description. Metallic and sour are totally different for me...I'd never describe a penny as being sour. To me that's just metallic.

 

[tstanonis1]

Just wanted to add a note.

I was having off flavor problems and beer that took a long time to taste right both in bottles and in kegs. I was pitching vials of white labs yeast right into the fermenter, at about 75*F. Since then, I have been doing good yeast starters on a stir plate that I made for almost nothing $... Even though I was pitching enough yeast, they just weren't ready to rock which cause them to shock/ lag. With the starters even as short as 8 hours on the stir plate, I'm noticing way less problems with off flavors and they are ready to drink on time.

I know dry yeast is slightly different. I've read all kinds of different stuff: no starter, no rehydration, or rehydrate in water or dme. I'd still do a two day starter with dme just the same.

 

[brewbama]

I'd disassemble every valve, every hose, every everything and give it a bleach bomb and rinse with boiling water.

 

[cbfan87]

Are you saying you used a lot of properly diluted Star San (I hope), or are you saying you may have mixed the solution too concentrated?

Using a lot of properly diluted Star San shouldn't be an issue assuming you drained most of it. I wouldn't recommend mixing it more concentrated though because if it's too concentrated it could cease being a no-rinse sanitizer.

I'm having a hard time understanding your description. Metallic and sour are totally different for me...I'd never describe a penny as being sour. To me that's just metallic.

I followed the directions for dilution. I just mean I made sure everything was soaked rinse, sprayed down with star san.

It doesnt taste metallic like water that is heavy with iron, It taste more sour. I saw someone say like touching a 9v battery with your tongue, which I think is close.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Again, I wouldn't describe that as sour myself. To me that definitely sounds metallic. I'd look for anything metal in your brewery that isn't stainless, copper, brass, or aluminum. If you can't find anything, look at the chemicals you're using and make sure they're compatible with all the materials in your brewery. If all that checks out, I'd try a different water source.

 

[thekraken]

I followed the directions for dilution. I just mean I made sure everything was soaked rinse, sprayed down with star san.

It doesnt taste metallic like water that is heavy with iron, It taste more sour. I saw someone say like touching a 9v battery with your tongue, which I think is close.

What water are you mixing the star san solution with? Is it cloudy?

 

[cbfan87]

What water are you mixing the star san solution with? Is it cloudy?

strait from the tap, city water. Yea is sorta cloudy

 

[cbfan87]

Again, I wouldn't describe that as sour myself. To me that definitely sounds metallic. I'd look for anything metal in your brewery that isn't stainless, copper, brass, or aluminum. If you can't find anything, look at the chemicals you're using and make sure they're compatible with all the materials in your brewery. If all that checks out, I'd try a different water source.

It just does not taste like actual metal in the beer, i've tasted water high in iron and its pretty obvious theres metal in there.

This just has that same senstation.

I'm definately going to be extra thorough on sanitation, and going to try a different water source.

Anyone have tips on getting the perfect water for a brew that a beginner can understand? My citys water report does not go into the detail that is mentioned in palmers guide.

Thanks!

 

[cbfan87]

Update:

I think I have come to the conclusion that both batches were slightly infected. Both have an unpleasant sourish taste to them, and don't really taste like beer.

I measured the gravity of one of the caribou slobbers after letting it sit to let out the Co2 and it was slightly less than the original FG, 1.017.

So there is still some sugar in there, thought that infections are supposed to eat all the sugar.

I guess I am a little frustrated because I was pretty thorough with sanitation, the only thing I can think of is when opening the carboys to take gravity samples or bottling exposing the beer.

I also never ever have seen an visible evidence of an infection.

Anyone have any similar experience with an infection?