First Runnings in Barleywines

[pharaohpierre]

Hi all,

I plan on brewing a barleywine, or an old ale, soon and I am doing some research. I came across a few breweries who just use the first runnings when brewing barleywines. I read that Anchor does it for their Old Foghorn.

Anyway, I don't understand why only the first runnings. I know it has higher gravity but wouldn't it have even more gravity if the second running are added? I'm assuming they use the second runnings on another beer but what is the real meaning behind this?

 

[TheZymurgist]

The first runnings have the highest concentration of sugars. If you add the second running, you're getting more volume, but you're diluting the first runnings, so mixing the two will give you a lower gravity, but higher volume than just the first runnings. You need to adjust the amount of grain you use to get the same volume from only the first runnings, or just make a smaller batch. Using the second runnings in a different beer is called Partigyle. Search that word, and you'll get some great info.

 

[GrogNerd]

while true that the gravity is the same if you strike, mash out (optional), take 1/2 your wort in one running, then the other 1/2 in a 2nd running, but you're draining the tun for your first runnings, then adding more water and draining for your 2nd runnings, which, like Zym said, is lower in gravity

 

[grathan]

Even if the 2nd runnings were boiled down (maillard reactions aside) to equal gravity, they are said to taste different.

 

[pharaohpierre]

Thanks for the responses. That makes sense. Wow, I'm going to need to do some major calculations to determine how I'm going to get the proper pre-boil gravity. I have to figure out how much grain to mash to get the proper OG just from the first runnings and how much the grain is going to absorb the water. This should be fun.

How do you calculate how much gravity you get from the first runnings, without experimenting a bunch of times?

 

[GrogNerd]

Batch Sparge and Party Gyle Simulator

excel spreadsheet calculates everything you need

rest of Kai's site is treasure trove of brewing knowledge. if you ever want to do a decoction mash, that is the site you want to read

 

[pharaohpierre]

thanks grognerd for the website, I'm going to run a few tests on the spreadsheet and see what kind of numbers I get

 

[edmanster]

thanks grognerd for the website, I'm going to run a few tests on the spreadsheet and see what kind of numbers I get

I've used the simulator for many years and it's spot on! Use the second and even third running for small beers. Add a pound or 2 of crystal for a short rest and it adds a lot for flavor

 

[pharaohpierre]

That spreadsheet is pretty sweet and I can see how helpful it will be. I also read like the whole page on understanding efficiency for mashing and lautering. Man, my head hurts now after reading that. It is just a lot of stuff to comprehend. The thing I still don't get is the conversion efficiency and how to measure it. I see the formulas but he is talking about 100% conversion, it is the default number in the conversion line of the spreadsheet. Can I please get some help on this?

 

[GrogNerd]

I put in 91% for that and it gets me to where Beersmith says the pre-boil gravity should be

I've really only used it to brew a parti-gyle once and I had other issues. like I had to drain my first runnings into my bottling bucket because I was still heating sparge water in my boil kettle. some dumba left the spigot open and I must have lost a gallon or two of the first runnings.

 

[pharaohpierre]

lol, that must have been a good time cleaning that up. I'm surprised to hear you say that you only used the parti gyle once. Don't you sparge more often than that? Also, it's the 91% number that is bothering me. What does that number mean exactly?

 

[GrogNerd]

luckily it was outside on my deck and just had to take the hose to it

I sparge all the time, that was the only time I've drawn 2 different beers off the same batch

no idea what 91% means... I just played with that number until the gravity for 1st + 2nd runnings matched what Beersmith said would be my pre-boil gravity

 

[pharaohpierre]

I get what you mean now. Well, I plan on brewing the barleywine in mid November so hopefully it won't suck