First couple batches didn't turn out too great...

[mccullpl]

...and I'd like to learn from my mistakes, but I'm not entirely sure what they are!

First post, and I'm probably venting, more than anything else...but I have a couple questions.

First batch was a Caribou Slobber NB extract kit. Had a friend that brews some pretty good AG help me out. Beer ended up tasting very "green apple-y". Everything I've seen says that means the beer is just too young. I did a 4 week primary, and kegged it, tried to quick carb it a bit, but since it was not too tasty, just set the regulator to 12psi, and left it for several days. After about 2 1/2 weeks, it was getting better but still not good, so I pulled it out of the kegerator to sit for a while. The only thing I can think of that we did wrong, is underpitching. I pitched a smack pack (no starter, OG 1.054), but I haven't seen any info saying that underpitching will cause the green apple flavor...Any ideas?

Second batch is a NB extra pale ale extract kit. Followed all the same procedures as the first (one smack pack, before I was told this is probably underpitching), but the OG was lower (1.045) so I thought it might turn out ok. I let this one set in primary for 3 weeks, FG 1.009. Cold crashed it for a couple days, and kegged it. Tasted a sample, and it tasted really good! I was pretty excited to drink this one, so I set the regulator to 30 psi for 24 hours, dropped it to 12 psi (didn't purge, just dropped to pressure), and let it set for a couple days. I was pretty anxious, so I poured myself one, and it tasted nothing like it did before it was carbed. No real flavor at all. I'm hoping it was overcarbed a bit , and I was just tasting lots of carbonic acid, but it was never foamy, and actually seemed carbed about right. After about a week of sitting at normal psi, I think it's starting to taste more like it should, but still not there.

If anyone has any ideas of what I might be screwing up, please let me know! I really enjoy the brewing process, but the end product has been a letdown thus far...

Thanks,
Pat

 

[duboman]

Don't be discouraged but do be patient. It seems as though you have a good idea of what's going on and your AG friend has obviously given you some good advice.

From what I can tell with your description is you are just not giving your beers enough time to fully condition before tapping them. The green apple taste is typical of a young beer and you confirmed that by stating that it was beginning to taste better. I do not keg so I cannot comment on force carbing etc, but when I bottle condition my beer generally sits for 3-5 weeks to both carbonate and more importantly condition which allows the flavors to mellow and blend. then they go in the fridge for a week or two to cold condition.

My take is that while you are allowing enough time to ferment you are not allowing enough time for the beer to condition before tapping.

 

[GarageDweller]

duboman has it.

Let it carb at serving pressure (around 12 psi) for 2 weeks and then start serving it. You will definitely notice the difference between a couple days and 2 weeks. Some beers take longer to condition, so they may not taste great at 2 weeks even. Be patient and dial in your system.
Sounds like you've got some good knowledge to start, keep it up man.

 

[JoshBlue74]

Underpitching is definitely the problem on the first batch. The second, too. You have to make a starter with the smack packs. I use two packs of dried yeast in my pale ales. The lack of flaor is just a function of your recipe. Add some steepnig grains in a bag, pulled before it boils for some more body and flavor. Don't give up! My first three batches were all bad, but now I would rather drink my brews than about anything.

 

[mccullpl]

Thanks for the reply duboman. I'm hoping that is the case. After talking to some other homebrewers, I got the impression, it should be pretty drinkable, shortly after kegging. I think I'm most surprised at how good the pale ale tasted, cold and flat, vs. cold and quick carbed. I guess I'll just drink something else, and give them a few more weeks to mature...

 

[abarhan]

aireation and filtered water will make a a difference too.

 

[mccullpl]

JoshBlue74, yea, I wish I knew I was underpitching with the smack pack before I did the second batch. I figure that's one mistake I can correct in the future. Thanks for the support, lol!

 

[atom]

Underpitching is definitely the problem on the first batch. The second, too. You have to make a starter with the smack packs. I use two packs of dried yeast in my pale ales. The lack of flaor is just a function of your recipe. Add some steepnig grains in a bag, pulled before it boils for some more body and flavor. Don't give up! My first three batches were all bad, but now I would rather drink my brews than about anything.

starters are nice and all, but i wouldn't say that either of those beers required one. I say that having made the CB slobber kit with a wyeast smack pack (no starter) as my second batch. turned out awesome and still one of my favorites. also, 2 packs of dry yeast are overkill for a normal pale ale.

 

[homebrewdad]

Underpitching is definitely the problem on the first batch. The second, too. You have to make a starter with the smack packs. I use two packs of dried yeast in my pale ales. The lack of flaor is just a function of your recipe. Add some steepnig grains in a bag, pulled before it boils for some more body and flavor. Don't give up! My first three batches were all bad, but now I would rather drink my brews than about anything.

Underpitching is not likely the green apple issue. And if you have flavor in flat beer, you'll have flavor in carbed beer - it just needs time.

That being said, the OP *does* need to make starters for liquid yeast.

You are overpitching with two packs of dry yeast in a normal gravity beer. If you brew a beer that relies on yeast character, you likely are missing out on some of it.

 

[mccullpl]

abarhan,

I aerated pretty well before I pitched the least, and both batches had, what I would consider, normal fermentation activity. I'm thinking about trying filtered water on the next batch, but most people in my area think the city water is good enough...it certainly can't hurt, though.

 

[iskuse]

If I am kegging 5 to 6 % beers, I do a week in the primary a week in the secondary and three in the keg at about 15psi

 

[atom]

what were your fermentation temps like?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

what were your fermentation temps like?

+1, that's my question. Temps are pretty important.... also, always make a starter with liquid. One pack is enough yeast for 5 gal of 1.03 wort, any higher gravity than that and you need to pitch more yeast. Plus, making a starter ensured the smack pack or vial is healthy, this is especially important with White Labs yeast since there's no other way to confirm their yeast is good.

 

[mccullpl]

I'll definitely use dry yeast, or make a starter from here on out.

My fermentation temps were mid 60's for both. I had a fermometer on the bucket for the 2nd batch, and it read 70 deg during the active fermentation, then dropped back to 66 deg.

 

[jubelale]

If you keep it the temp steady during the complete fermentation it will help tremendously. The yeast saw a rise in temp during the active stage from 66 to 70 but then saw a drop in temp from 70 to 66 at the final stages of clean up. When yeast sense a drop in temp they tend to stop working. This left acetaldehyde (tastes like green apples), a fermentation byproduct. It is best to actually raise the temp at the later stages of the ferment a few degrees to help clean up fermentation byproducts and not let the temp drop back down.

You actually fermented at 70 which is a little high for most yeasts. It would be better to have the active fermentation at a steady 66 then raise the temp to 70 towards the end of fermentation.

 

[flipfloptan]

Your two batches sound like mine.

Make life easier and use dry yeast. Harvest the yeast for future batches and your beers will be much better. I set my fridge at 61 which makes the beer 65/66 degrees. I let it ferment for 3 weeks for APA's and cream ales and 4 week fermenter for heavier beers.

Problems solved.

 

[mccullpl]

I guess I need to get a fridge, and a temp controller...so how do people make good beer in their basements, just following the directions that these kits come with?! Lol!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Just get one of these to maintain temps. Check out this site for info on yeast health and pitch rates. Read as much as you can, here on HBT, in books and on the 'net. Ask as many or more questions as you have. And brew as much as you can. You'll be making great beer in no time.

 

[abarhan]

abarhan,

I aerated pretty well before I pitched the least, and both batches had, what I would consider, normal fermentation activity. I'm thinking about trying filtered water on the next batch, but most people in my area think the city water is good enough...it certainly can't hurt, though.

My first two batches had pretty funky flavors due to city water. I switched to filtered water and the beers were WAY better. It all depends on the cities water supply and the chemical levels present. Its pretty cheap, I can get 10g of RO water at the store for 2 bucks and then make any water profile I want. I would just use RO water so you can help isolate any other issues you might be having. RO doesn't make the best beers due to lack of minerals and its devoid of any flavors but its great for isolation. The salts are pretty cheap to add back if you need them for a specific style. Check the LHBS to see if they have a water profile for your city or you can order one from some online labs. Cheers.

 

[mccullpl]

Thanks for the suggestions....sounds like there's plenty of things to try!