First brew with my ebrew rig complete!

[stratslinger]

After one false start with my control panel build, I completed my ebrew build out this weekend and it took its maiden voyage yesterday!

The control system is kind of a hybrid Kal-clone/Strangebrew Elsinore setup - more or less a Kal design with a Raspberry Pi running Elsinore in place of the PIDs and pump switches...





(seen in the lower right corner of the second pic is the aforementioned false start - I initially ordered an enclosure from auberins that was discontinued, but I was offered a scratch and dent that turned out to be a smaller size, which I tried, and failed, to make work, before just buying a different enclosure of a more appropriate size)

The brew system itself is 3 vessel, single tier HERMS setup. For now, I'm still using the 10 gallon HD round cooler Mash Tun I've been using for years, but I have shiny new Concord Stainless 15 gallon kettles, each with stainless 4500watt elements. I'm using a Little Giant pump for my wort pump (old faithful that's been with me a few years) and a 12v DC Topsflo pump as an HLT recirculation pump.







The maiden voyage wasn't without its bumps... The AC adapter I used on the Topsflo pump, which performed admirably in testing and pre-cleaning tasks, failed about 20 or 30 minutes into ramping up to strike temps... So I had to improvise - I didn't have another adapter in the house that'd work (I tried to make one work that seemed spec'ed right, but no go), so I had to make do without the recirculation pump - basically, I recirculated HLT water with my wort pump, set the mash tun on a milk crate on the floor, and when it came time to fly sparge, I gravity fed the HLT to the Tun and pumped the Tun up to the Kettle. Never got to use my shiny new HERMS this time out - but next time... Next time...

Overall, it was pretty awesome though. Even with an hour+ worked in there trying to diagnose and fix the pump issue, I only came in about 30 minutes longer than a typical brew day - so once I get used to this set up and resolve my equipment problems, things should go very nice and quickly.

 

[BrunDog]

Pretty cool... congrats!! First brews always have bumps. I'll bet that despite the pump failure, you'll have some damn good beer.

 

[stratslinger]

The issue definitely turned out to be limited to the cheapo AC adapter... I had a minor suspicion, due to how the pump behaved when I tried with one other adapter, that the pump itself may have been damaged. But I stopped by good 'ole Radio Shack (and probably overpaid) to get a new adapter yesterday, and a few quick tests show the pump is perfectly healthy.

The bad AC Adapter I used, just in case I can warn anybody else off it, was this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VM292AO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And of course, it failed roughly 10 days after I could no longer get a refund through Amazon. Of course! At least it was only $7. (Which probably should have tipped me off!)

 

[iijakii]

I totally wouldve just stirred the HLT every couple few minutes and used the HERMS! Good looking setup though mate.

 

[stratslinger]

The thought occurred to me - but the way I have my temp probe rigged is just after the pump - if the pump's not running, I'm not too confident in the temp readings for the HLT. I get another shot at it this weekend though - coffee IPA is bubbling away in the ferment chamber, black IPA should join it this weekend!

Thanks for the compliments! And thanks, in general, to HBT for all the ideas I "borrowed" to put this thing together!

 

[augiedoggy]

The issue definitely turned out to be limited to the cheapo AC adapter... I had a minor suspicion, due to how the pump behaved when I tried with one other adapter, that the pump itself may have been damaged. But I stopped by good 'ole Radio Shack (and probably overpaid) to get a new adapter yesterday, and a few quick tests show the pump is perfectly healthy.

The bad AC Adapter I used, just in case I can warn anybody else off it, was this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VM292AO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And of course, it failed roughly 10 days after I could no longer get a refund through Amazon. Of course! At least it was only $7. (Which probably should have tipped me off!)

Congrats on you working system.

I have seen so many of the cheap wall wort dc power supplies fail its not even funny... They are also usually not properly rated amp wise since and burn up quicker when your drawing towards their high end amp rating.

The topsflo pump you have will work on any dc from like 12v to 22v without any issues since it has an MPPT controller inside to boost or buck voltage from a 17v solar panel to the correct voltage and amps to drive the motor. I have the same pump but stopped using it in favor of the 24v food grade tan pumps with coated magnets that dont have the mppt controllers so they work with pwm speed controllers.

Also be aware that your topsflo pump has an overheat safety protection feature meaning when you use it to pump extremely hot liquid it can shut off and stop working once it reaches a certain internal temp to protect it from warping since it was not designed for hot liquid and If I remember right is made out of plastic that is not rated as food safe over 170 degrees. This happened to me a couple times. The was also a driving force behind the upgrade to the pps plastic tan pumps which will work with boiling liquid. they were designed as food grade pumps for drinking fountains and such. (this topic has been beaten to death as you may already know if you searched "cheap pump" here)

 

[augiedoggy]

I totally wouldve just stirred the HLT every couple few minutes and used the HERMS! Good looking setup though mate.

You have to stir it like every 30 seconds from what I found when I had a herms...

 

[stevehaun]

I do not recirculate the water in my HLT. The wort exiting my HERMS coil is 2-4F lower than the water in my HLT. I probably lose a little heat transfer efficiency but not enough to worry about. I personally think the need to stir/recirculate water in your HLT is way overblown. My HLT is 15 gallons with two 4500 watt elements - different systems may behave differently.

 

[stratslinger]

The topsflo pump you have will work Also be aware that your topsflo pump has an overheat safety protection feature meaning when you use it to pump extremely hot liquid it can shut off and stop working once it reaches a certain internal temp to protect it from warping since it was not designed for hot liquid and If I remember right is made out of plastic that is not rated as food safe over 170 degrees. This happened to me a couple times. The was also a driving force behind the upgrade to the pps plastic tan pumps which will work with boiling liquid. they were designed as food grade pumps for drinking fountains and such. (this topic has been beaten to death as you may already know if you searched "cheap pump" here)

Thanks for the tips - I did do some research before making this purchase, and I think I'll be OK with the Topsflo. I intend to only use it for HLT duty, and as such, I don't expect to bring the vessel over 168. That's definitely pushing the envelope a bit - getting awful close to that 170 limit - but time will tell if it all works out. At least I have a reminder to watch out for the high temp cutoff!

Though - and maybe the documentation on the pump is off - the pump does indicate that it's good through 100C. Now you've got me wondering if the pump will continue to work, but not be food-safe beyond a certain temperature...

 

[augiedoggy]

I do not recirculate the water in my HLT. The wort exiting my HERMS coil is 2-4F lower than the water in my HLT. I probably lose a little heat transfer efficiency but not enough to worry about. I personally think the need to stir/recirculate water in your HLT is way overblown. My HLT is 15 gallons with two 4500 watt elements - different systems may behave differently.

Strange because in my herms setup If I didnt stir the temps in my hlt became very uneven as the herms coil lowered the water temp around it and it didnt work well as all I wonder what makes yours different? I only had a 15.5 keggle and one 4500w element.

 

[iijakii]

Mine was more just about how low mounted my element was in a 15gal pot, combined with heat rising I'm sure. If I never stirred/recirc'd I'd easily see 10+F swings at the top of the pot.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks for the tips - I did do some research before making this purchase, and I think I'll be OK with the Topsflo. I intend to only use it for HLT duty, and as such, I don't expect to bring the vessel over 168. That's definitely pushing the envelope a bit - getting awful close to that 170 limit - but time will tell if it all works out. At least I have a reminder to watch out for the high temp cutoff!

Though - and maybe the documentation on the pump is off - the pump does indicate that it's good through 100C. Now you've got me wondering if the pump will continue to work, but not be food-safe beyond a certain temperature...

Technically its not really food safe at all because of the uncoated exposed magnet that comes in contact with the wort... Hopefully the people you bought it from did not advertise it as such. Or maybe they have recently changed the design?

That being said theres no evidence that the magnet will harm anything (or not really and thats the concern) but according to an email from the manufacturer themselves the exposed magnet prevents the pump from ever being officially sold as such.

mine would run for a bit at boiling temps then shut off..I was trying to whirlpool wort with it at the time.

 

[augiedoggy]

Mine was more just about how low mounted my element was in a 15gal pot, combined with heat rising I'm sure. If I never stirred/recirc'd I'd easily see 10+F swings at the top of the pot.

same here.. element was installed towards the bottom and the coil above that.

 

[stratslinger]

Technically its not really food safe at all because of the uncoated exposed magnet that comes in contact with the wort... Hopefully the people you bought it from did not advertise it as such. Or maybe they have recently changed the design?

That being said theres no evidence that the magnet will harm anything (or not really and thats the concern) but according to an email from the manufacturer themselves the exposed magnet prevents the pump from ever being officially sold as such.

mine would run for a bit at boiling temps then shut off..I was trying to whirlpool wort with it at the time.

I'm not sure how to take this news... What's really making me nervous now is that this thing, via Amazon, is sold (and labeled) as a Topsflo TL-B08H, and all the ratings there indicate it's food safe. I just went to Topsflo's website, and they don't list that model number. The closest thing they have to mine, based on appearance along, as the TL-B10H, which is not listed as food safe. Lovely.

Guess I'll be replacing that, just in case, sooner rather than later.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not sure how to take this news... What's really making me nervous now is that this thing, via Amazon, is sold (and labeled) as a Topsflo TL-B08H, and all the ratings there indicate it's food safe. I just went to Topsflo's website, and they don't list that model number. The closest thing they have to mine, based on appearance along, as the TL-B10H, which is not listed as food safe. Lovely.

Guess I'll be replacing that, just in case, sooner rather than later.

Its probably fine especially for just water there are other here using them with no reported problems but with actual food grade pumps for only $18 shipped I just decided to replace it... The sellers know they arent food grade in many cases... they just play the odds, as another member here posted when he contacted the person he bought his through amazon they promptly responded that he was right and that they made a mistake and had him return it for a refund but then continued to sell and advertise it as food grade.

 

[stevehaun]

I have two 4500 watt elements at the bottom of my keggle HLT. Perhaps having 9000 watts makes a difference. I am not sure why people care so much about HLT stratification or even HLT water temp. If wort is leaving the HERMS coil at the desired temp, why does HLT water temp matter?

 

[stratslinger]

That's a good point - probably goes into where you place your temp probes. If the probe is on the HERMS output, and not the HLT output, then logically I think you'd be absolutely right.

I'm just not sure how the control system might best account for that. You're controlling the heating element that heats the water in the HLT, and then measuring the temperature of the water you're indirectly heating... Seems like it should work (how else would indirect-fired hot water heaters for our homes work?) but the control might not be as precise?

 

[augiedoggy]

I have two 4500 watt elements at the bottom of my keggle HLT. Perhaps having 9000 watts makes a difference. I am not sure why people care so much about HLT stratification or even HLT water temp. If wort is leaving the HERMS coil at the desired temp, why does HLT water temp matter?

Uhh im not sure how your herms works but normally you use HLT water to regulate the herms temp so bad hlt water control = bad herms temp control as I see it.. Most herms systems I have seen including the one I built used a pid to control the water temp of the HLT and that in turn controls the temp or the liquid in the herms coil placed inside of said HLT... Therefore if you hlt water temps are all over the place how can it accurately control the herm temp?

 

[stevehaun]

Uhh im not sure how your herms works but normally you use HLT water to regulate the herms temp so bad hlt water control = bad herms temp control as I see it.. Most herms systems I have seen including the one I built used a pid to control the water temp of the HLT and that in turn controls the temp or the liquid in the herms coil placed inside of said HLT... Therefore if you hlt water temps are all over the place how can it accurately control the herm temp?

I have a thermowell with thermocouple at the return to the top of the mash (post-HERMS coil). This is connected to the PID that controls the HLT heating elements. All I care about is the temp of the wort returning to the top of the mash tun. I have never understood controlling the HLT water temp - it seems indirect to me. You still have to monitor wort temp as it enters and leaves the mash tun. You then have to determine the temp differential between wort temp and HLT water temp in your system. Why not control the variable you actually want to control? I don't care what the water temp in my HLT is as long as the wort returning to the top of the mash is the correct temperature.

I have a dial thermometer on my HLT but I never look at it during the mash. I do use it to know the temp of my sparge water.

 

[stratslinger]

I have a thermowell with thermocouple at the return to the top of the mash (post-HERMS coil). This is connected to the PID that controls the HLT heating elements. All I care about is the temp of the wort returning to the top of the mash tun. I have never understood controlling the HLT water temp - it seems indirect to me. You still have to monitor wort temp as it enters and leaves the mash tun. You then have to determine the temp differential between wort temp and HLT water temp in your system. Why not control the variable you actually want to control? I don't care what the water temp in my HLT is as long as the wort returning to the top of the mash is the correct temperature.

I have a dial thermometer on my HLT but I never look at it during the mash. I do use it to know the temp of my sparge water.

But that's kind of the thing... Sure - you're MONITORING the thing you want to control. But unless your heating element is directly in-line with that element (a la RIMS in this sort of config), then you're not CONTROLLING that thing that you're MONITORING.

I know it sounds like semantics - but if you take a measurement of item A while applying heat to item B, there's not necessarily going to be a direct correlation between the two, unless you're very, very fortunate.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have a thermowell with thermocouple at the return to the top of the mash (post-HERMS coil). This is connected to the PID that controls the HLT heating elements. All I care about is the temp of the wort returning to the top of the mash tun. I have never understood controlling the HLT water temp - it seems indirect to me. You still have to monitor wort temp as it enters and leaves the mash tun. You then have to determine the temp differential between wort temp and HLT water temp in your system. Why not control the variable you actually want to control? I don't care what the water temp in my HLT is as long as the wort returning to the top of the mash is the correct temperature.

I have a dial thermometer on my HLT but I never look at it during the mash. I do use it to know the temp of my sparge water.

When you bake something in the oven do you set the temp on the oven of just monitor a thermometer stuck in what your cooking while paying no attention to what the oven is set at? how do you then make sure its cooking correctly? do you remove it from the oven and put it back multiple times to keep it at the correct temp? Most people just make sure the atmosphere its sitting in (oven ) is the correct temp to accomplish cooking temps... this is no different then controlling the atmosphere the herms sits in.
Convection ovens take this one step further and work better because they use air circulation to keep more consistent temp control and therefore work better to cook heat things more evenly.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have a thermowell with thermocouple at the return to the top of the mash (post-HERMS coil). ]Why not control the variable you actually want to control? .

Great, explain to me how YOU CONTROL that variable without controlling the heat source? (adjusting and regulating the temp of your HLT...)
I seriously dont know if your pulling my leg here or what? you say the temp of the HLT water is unimportant when its the one thing governing your herms temp?

In short, How do you regulate your herms temp?

 

[augiedoggy]

I know it sounds like semantics - but if you take a measurement of item A while applying heat to item B, there's not necessarily going to be a direct correlation between the two, unless you're very, very fortunate.

Ahh but you can... Its all in how well its designed really. If flow and temps of a and b are consistent without other uneven influences then you will get a direct correlation.
(like having evenly mixed HLT water to allow consistent even control vs trial and error guesstimating and constant temp swings and adjustments) ... This is why I went through 4 different rims configurations before setting on a 42" long rims tube with a 36" element... I get pretty a very consistent temp correlation due to the longer gentle contact time from the ULWD element like a herms but with the added speed of a rims in terms of being able to adjust my temps... since my flow rate is only 1.8gallons a minute or so and the cartridge heater is 1/2" diameter in a 1" pipe it allows great even heat distribution. my wort output at my rims exit is always within 2 degrees max (Except when performing a step mash or major temp adjustment) of my output of my HLT and usually its only about one degree difference.

 

[stratslinger]

Ahh but you can... Its all in how well its designed really. If flow and temps of a and b are consistent without other uneven influences then you will get a direct correlation.

I'm pretty sure you and I are in agreement here - If you KNOW that the HLT temp is homogenous (or darned close), then this will work. If you don't, then this it's something of a crapshoot.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm pretty sure you and I are in agreement here - If you KNOW that the HLT temp is homogenous (or darned close), then this will work. If you don't, then this it's something of a crapshoot.

Exactly other things like wind blowing on the kettles if brewing outside can throw things off too but if all other influences were stable the correlation should be relatively stable for the temp range used for this application.

 

[stratslinger]

So, here's another question I'm kind of debating with... Right now, sitting in my basement, it (probably) doesn't much matter, but sooner or later the weather is going to turn nice again and I'll want to get out in the back yard on brew days:

How much difference does insulation make on the HLT or BK? Even just a couple wraps of Reflectix - would that help in ramp up times at all, or just reduce the amount of cycles I'd need to use to maintain a given temp? Given that these kettles are a little shorter and wider than I'm used to (I converted from using keggles with my old propane setup over to these 17" wide kettles that are probable 24" deep, if I had to guess).

 

[poptarts]

I insulated my bk and mlt on my electric system. seems to help a decent amount with stratification and what not, helps the system run consistent since my garage temps run from 0 - 80f

 

[BrunDog]

Great, explain to me how YOU CONTROL that variable without controlling the heat source? (adjusting and regulating the temp of your HLT...)
I seriously dont know if your pulling my leg here or what? you say the temp of the HLT water is unimportant when its the one thing governing your herms temp?

In short, How do you regulate your herms temp?

All this is why I think RIMS is a much better approach than HERMS. I certainly understand the benefit/need for HERMS in 30A systems, but I dig on RIMS as it is more direct acting , and responds likely faster.

 

[augiedoggy]

All this is why I think RIMS is a much better approach than HERMS. I certainly understand the benefit/need for HERMS in 30A systems, but I dig on RIMS as it is more direct acting , and responds likely faster.

I in fact use my 1800w rims along with my 4500w HLT element at the same time on my single 30A circuit... no issues as they along with my DC pumps and control panel all running draw somewhere around 28amps and the fact is the voltages are always fluctuating up and down and not contestant anyway.. Rims is less forgiving if the system isn't designed and operated correctly... A stuck pump or line and disaster can strike (which is why I went with the flow switch for safety in my setup.)

 

[cantrell00]

The only time you would see benefit to stir the HERMS/HLT water is during the initial heating of the mash strike water (assuming a single element system like mine) or when performing a mash step temp increase.

In any other instance, the total volume of water in the system is going to reach an equilibrium and the PID is going to pulsate to maintain that delta, recovering for the totality of heat losses.

 

[augiedoggy]

The only time you would see benefit to stir the HERMS/HLT water is during the initial heating of the mash strike water (assuming a single element system like mine) or when performing a mash step temp increase.

In any other instance, the total volume of water in the system is going to reach an equilibrium and the PID is going to pulsate to maintain that delta, recovering for the totality of heat losses.

While this makes logical sense that it would be much worse during the initial warm up period I respectfully disagree with it not mattering once temp is reached as I found this not to be the case in my setup... My herms temp would jump whenever I stirred my HLT even during the middle of the mash and the temp always fluctuated a bit because of this.. The result was it just wasnt very stable.

 

[cantrell00]

While this makes logical sense that it would be much worse during the initial warm up period I respectfully disagree with it not mattering once temp is reached as I found this not to be the case in my setup... My herms temp would jump whenever I stirred my HLT even during the middle of the mash and the temp always fluctuated a bit because of this.. The result was it just wasnt very stable.

That's because every time you stirred you disrupted what the PID was accustomed to see re; temp input vs the temp it was seeing in response to you stirring the HLT.

The PID fluctuations were a measurement of those differences.

Were you step mashing in this scenario? Why did you feel the need to stir the HERMS/HLT water?

 

[BrunDog]

Rims is less forgiving if the system isn't designed and operated correctly... A stuck pump or line and disaster can strike (which is why I went with the flow switch for safety in my setup.)

True. Most high performance tools make the trade between performance and usability/forgiveness.

 

[augiedoggy]

That's because every time you stirred you disrupted what the PID was accustomed to see re; temp input vs the temp it was seeing in response to you stirring the HLT.

The PID fluctuations were a measurement of those differences.

Were you step mashing in this scenario? Why did you feel the need to stir the HERMS/HLT water?

Honestly I dont remember since it was a couple years ago... Most likely because I wasnt getting steady results in my mash temp. You kind of made my point though ... If the HLT water is recirculating the temps are even and an even consistent temp is applied to the entire length of the herms coil which would provide tighter temp control no? Rather than the temps being higher down near the element than they are in other areas of the coil and constant fluctuations as the liquid temps keep shifting. inconsistent uneven temps are going to cause uneven inconsistent results as far as I can reason. Also the liquid near the element could be a lot higher in temp than the liquid near my temp probe making the temp control pretty unreliable and hard to nail down.

 

[cantrell00]

Honestly I dont remember since it was a couple years ago... Most likely because I wasnt getting steady results in my mash temp. You kind of made my point though ... If the HLT water is recirculating the temps are even and an even consistent temp is applied to the entire length of the herms coil which would provide tighter temp control no? Rather than the temps being higher down near the element than they are in other areas of the coil and constant fluctuations as the liquid temps keep shifting. inconsistent uneven temps are going to cause uneven inconsistent results as far as I can reason. Also the liquid near the element could be a lot higher in temp than the liquid near my temp probe making the temp control pretty unreliable and hard to nail down.

Not necessarily.

If the HLT is covered, the only thing the recirc pump is doing is averaging out the entire temp of the volume of water. It would also depend on where you are measuring. In my scenario the measurement is at the MLT return but the same would be true if measuring immediately at the HLT exit. Measuring at the MLT exit would be of little consequence either way.

The PID is going to see a temp regardless so if for example the bottom of the coil is 155 degrees & the top of the coil is at 148, the temp out of the coil is going to be an eventual average of that temperature gradient on the wort that is passing through it.

Stirring the water would only even out the average temperature of the total volume of water. Assuming that the entirety the water volume in the system has reached an equilibrium.

I would doubt that there would be significant difference in the temp of the wort as it exits the coil with or without re-circulation once everything has settled.

Running a circulation pump through non insulated lines in very cold temperatures is going to introduce heat losses also. Not much, depending on the distance, speed of travel, etc but you do lose heat there none the less.

Basically, a re-circulation loop can make the brew day more efficient, not more accurate.

 

[stevehaun]

You guys are making this way too complicated. I am controlling the temp of the wort returning to the top of the mash by increasing or decreasing the temp of the water in my HLT. This is the same as a RIMS. I don't care about the temp of the water in my HLT; I care about the temp of my wort as it returns to the top of the mash. The thermocouple feeding back to the PID controlling the elements in my HLT is in the wort returning to the top of the mash. I do not directly control the temp of the water in my HLT. I do know that the temp of the water in my HLT is 2-4F higher than the temp of the wort returning to the top of the mash, but it really doesn't matter if it is a 1 degree or 8 degree gradient. Most folks control the temp of the water in their HLT and hope their wort temp is correct. I personally think that is ass backwards.

 

[stevehaun]

With a HERMS you basically have two choices:
1. Control the temp of the water in the HLT (thermocouple or rtd in HLT) and hope your wort temp is where you want it.
2. Control the temp of the wort as it returns to the top of the mash (thermocouple or rtd inline at return to mash). With this approach you do not need to know the temp of the water in the HLT.

 

[iijakii]

The common approach is that by controlling your HLT temp you arent subject to swings and stratifications, you can exactly predict what temp the wort exiting will be (my mash as a whole had 1F temp loss systemwide, set HLT one degree higher than mash point). Common thought is by measuring wort-return temp you will have swings because the HLT might overshoot etc.

I know my HLT had pretty severe stratification without mixing, but I'm curious now if that wouldnt have made a difference or not. I admit to doing my rig that way just following Kal and the herd. If youre not seeing any flucation in the wort return temp that's sweet, cuts out the need for the second pump.

 

[stevehaun]

My controlling thermocouple is between the HERMS coil and the mash tun. I also measure wort temp as it leaves the bottom of the mash tun. I don't predict what my wort temp is, I control it.

 

[cantrell00]

You guys are making this way too complicated. I am controlling the temp of the wort returning to the top of the mash by increasing or decreasing the temp of the water in my HLT. This is the same as a RIMS. I don't care about the temp of the water in my HLT; I care about the temp of my wort as it returns to the top of the mash. The thermocouple feeding back to the PID controlling the elements in my HLT is in the wort returning to the top of the mash. I do not directly control the temp of the water in my HLT. I do know that the temp of the water in my HLT is 2-4F higher than the temp of the wort returning to the top of the mash, but it really doesn't matter if it is a 1 degree or 8 degree gradient. Most folks control the temp of the water in their HLT and hope their wort temp is correct. I personally think that is ass backwards.

I have the same setup as you & agree. Usually a delta of 2-3 degrees of HLT water temp & wort temp as it returns to the MLT.