First all-grain not as hoppy as extract version

[golphur]

I tapped my first ever all-grain brew a couple of days ago and it is noticeably less-hoppy than the extract version of the same beer that I brewed several months ago. The extract was a full boil and my beer program (Beer Alchemy) showed equal IBU ABV etc. I only switched out enough DME for 2-row to reach the equal gravity.

The extract version was a very hoppy beer, lots of citrus flavor. The all-grain version is not as hoppy. Very matly. Being my first all-grain ever, I was off on my strike temps. The Beer Alchemy program gave be a strike temp much hotter than I should have used. BA assumed I was not preheating so when I added grain (after preheating) my mash temp was a good 14 degrees hotter than expected. I stirred vigorously for 15 minutes to get the temp down to 154 before resting for 60 minutes. I am just wondering if the hot temps at strike caused the less-hoppy, more matly brew.

I have since brewed anther IPA where I was able to hit my strike temp more accurately. Actually missed by 1 degree low. 153 vs 154. I am hoping the new batch will turn out better than the last.

Can the 15 minutes or so at a higher temp really affect the hop and malt quality in all-grain brewing?

 

[RJS]

what was the recipe.

 

[bigljd]

I tapped my first ever all-grain brew a couple of days ago and it is noticeably less-hoppy than the extract version of the same beer that I brewed several months ago. The extract was a full boil and my beer program (Beer Alchemy) showed equal IBU ABV etc. I only switched out enough DME for 2-row to reach the equal gravity.

The extract version was a very hoppy beer, lots of citrus flavor. The all-grain version is not as hoppy. Very matly. Being my first all-grain ever, I was off on my strike temps. The Beer Alchemy program gave be a strike temp much hotter than I should have used. BA assumed I was not preheating so when I added grain (after preheating) my mash temp was a good 14 degrees hotter than expected. I stirred vigorously for 15 minutes to get the temp down to 154 before resting for 60 minutes. I am just wondering if the hot temps at strike caused the less-hoppy, more matly brew.

I have since brewed anther IPA where I was able to hit my strike temp more accurately. Actually missed by 1 degree low. 153 vs 154. I am hoping the new batch will turn out better than the last.

Can the 15 minutes or so at a higher temp really affect the hop and malt quality in all-grain brewing?

The higher the mash temps, the more quickly the beta enzymes are denatured and only the alpha enzymes are left to break down sugars. The alpha enzymes leave much larger sugar chains that are less fermentable, resulting in a beer that ends up with a higher FG and is usually more malty and thicker feeling than one mashed lower where the beta enzymes can break down sugars into smaller, more easily fermentable chains.

If you mashed in at 168, it will definitely have an impact on your beer. At temps that high, most of the starches were probably converted in 15 minutes, and most of the beta enzymes were probably cooked.

Sounds like you got things sorted out with the second batch though. AG can be a little tricky at first, but after a few batches it gets a lot easier. Hitting your mash temps is important though, to get the beer you are after.

 

[RJS]

without the recipe i can say...yes and no. higher temps=more malty. but your hop schedule is the factor here. im sure if you had a good hoppy schedule for the boil you could have what you wanted

 

[RJS]

i did the same thing on my first all grain, 160F or something like that. but i used enough tettnanger in the boil and it had good, subtle spice notes.

 

[RJS]

Soapbox: Thats the challenge with these programs that do everything for you, we shouldnt depend on them for everything.

 

[golphur]

He is the recipe:

13lbs 2-row
1lb 60L
1/2lb Caramunich

1oz columbus 60 mins
1/2oz warrior 30 mins
1oz centennial 5 mins
1/2oz warrior dry hopped
1/2oz centennial dry hopped

Expected ABV 7.2 at 70% eff actual 7.5 (had better than expected efficiency)
Expected IBU 70 actual 68.5

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad beer. It's just not as hoppy as the extract version I brewed previously. The expected ABV and IBU are in range but the final product is not as hoppy. The strike temp seems to be the culprit, as explained in previous posts. It makes complete sense to me. Higher temps equal less ferment able sugars. I think my mistake was that Beer Alchemy gave me a strike temp of X based on not preheating and a thermal mass (absorption) of my mash tun. Where in reality, I preheated my mash tun with 10 degree higher strike water to preheat and added grain at the recommended temp which was way higher than what I was shooting for (154)

I made correction for this on my next batch. Hopefully I'll get better results.

Edit - instead of 'less fermentable sugars' I should probably say higher mash temps equal 'more unfermentable sugars'. Slight difference, but important in this case.

 

[bigljd]

instead of 'less fermentable sugars' I should probably say higher mash temps equal 'more unfermentable sugars'. Slight difference, but important in this case.

What was your starting and finishing gravity? What was your targeted finishing gravity?

It sound like you got better efficiency than you were expecting, but that's different from the fermentability of the wort. If your efficiency was higher than expected, you extracted more sugars from the grain resulting in a bigger beer than planned, but that does not tell us how fermentable the sugars are. The final gravity is what will help you understand how fermentable the wort is.

If your recipe targeted your final gravity to be 1.012 and you finish at 1.020, it means there is a lot of long chain unfermentable sugars left in the beer. This makes the final beer taste sweeter and maltier and will override some of the hop bitterness and flavor.

If you mash a beer at 160 and the next time you make the same beer and mash it at 148, using the same yeast your second batch should have a much lower final gravity. If you use the same hop schedule in each batch, the hops will show thru much more in the batch mashed at 148 than the batch at 160, since there are fewer residual sugars left to compete with the hop flavor and bitterness.

 

[golphur]

Wow, that's very interesting, and makes a lot of sense. Here are the recipe target vs actual stats.

Wort Volume Before Boil: 7.00 US gals (actual 7.00)
Wort Volume After Boil: 5.25 US gals (actual 5.50)
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.053 SG (actual 1.056)
Expected OG: 1.071 SG (actual 1.069 - didn't boil off as much as expected)
Expected FG: 1.017 SG (actual 1.013)
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Rest at 154 degF for 60 mins
Double Batch Sparge using 180 degree water to reach desired boil volume

The mash stats were off because the preheating was not calculated in my strike temp. I have since adjusted and used 0.00 as thermal mass of mash tun in the Beer Alchemy calculator. This worked like a champ. My next two mashes were spot on for temps.

Actual Mash stats from this batch - added grain to water at calculated temp (whjich we now know was wrong for my process) and the temp after stirring was 170 degrees. I stirred like a mad man for 15 minutes to get grain down to 156 then closed lid and rested for the full 60 minutes. Double batch sparged with 180 degree water.

 

[bigljd]

Wow, that's very interesting, and makes a lot of sense. Here are the recipe target vs actual stats.

Wort Volume Before Boil: 7.00 US gals (actual 7.00)
Wort Volume After Boil: 5.25 US gals (actual 5.50)
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.053 SG (actual 1.056)
Expected OG: 1.071 SG (actual 1.069 - didn't boil off as much as expected)
Expected FG: 1.017 SG (actual 1.013)
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Rest at 154 degF for 60 mins
Double Batch Sparge using 180 degree water to reach desired boil volume

The mash stats were off because the preheating was not calculated in my strike temp. I have since adjusted and used 0.00 as thermal mass of mash tun in the Beer Alchemy calculator. This worked like a champ. My next two mashes were spot on for temps.

Actual Mash stats from this batch - added grain to water at calculated temp (whjich we now know was wrong for my process) and the temp after stirring was 170 degrees. I stirred like a mad man for 15 minutes to get grain down to 156 then closed lid and rested for the full 60 minutes. Double batch sparged with 180 degree water.

Interesting - it looks like your gravity finished lower than your target so your high mash temp didn't impact the brew too much. I don't know if Beer Alchemy takes into account the mash temp or yeast attenuation % when calculating FG, but for a hoppy beer like an IPA, 1.013 is a pretty decent FG to finish at. Did you use the same yeast as your extract batch? Some yeasts will strip away some of the hop flavors away from the beer.
If you used the same hop schedule I'm not sure why the AG came out less hoppy, if your OG and FG are similar. You'll probably just have to adjust the hop schedule a little bit to get it back to where you want it. Just keep track of what you do in each brew so you can make adjustments where you want in future brew.

Happy brewing - and if you need someone to taste your homebrew, remember I'm just down the road from you

EDIT: I just re-read my post from this morning, and I for some reason when I read your post "instead of 'less fermentable sugars' I should probably say higher mash temps equal 'more unfermentable sugars'. Slight difference, but important in this case." I was thinking you said higher mash temps = more fermentable sugars. I guess I shouldn't post on HBT until I've had at least 1 cup of coffee.

 

[Ravenshead]

If your FG got down to 1013 than I don't think your mash temp is the problem. I wound up around 1022 when I mashed at around 160 with a similar but lower OG. I'd look somewhere else.

 

[chezzesteak]

What about the AA on the hops? Are they the same? Did they sit in freezer opened to air for a couple of weeks? I am guessing it is something with the hops. Just my two cents

 

[wailingguitar]

Ok, If I read the first post correctly, he said nothing about hop bitterness, but only about FLAVOR. The mash issues wouldn't have had significant impact there.

Think about the boil itself, was the second more vigorous? If so, it could have boiled off some of the volatile flavor/aroma compounds. What about cooling time? Was there a difference in the amount of time between flame out and cooling? What about when you went to the ferm? Any difference in the amount of hop material that went in? What about the vigor of the ferment itself? A violent ferment can sometimes drive off hop volatiles...

 

[RJS]

yes, im not seeing the mash as the problem.

 

[golphur]

I went back to my extract recipe and notes and unfortunately it was before I started capturing the actual AA for the hops I use for each recipe. It only has the default AA value from Beer Alchemy. But looking at the notes, here is what is the same and different for each brew.

Extract vs All Grain
Bottled water vs filtered tap water and campden tabs
Steeped grains and DME extract vs full mash
Hops boiled in bags for both
Notes state I had low boil off in extract brew which makes me think it was not very vigorous. When I did all grain I started with a half gallon more volume preboil because I am comfortable doing a full raging boil now
Cooled using immersion chiller for both (roughly same amount of time)
Strained wort into primary for both
Used dry yeast 05 for both
Secondaried vs long primary
Fermentation temps consistent with both
Dry hopped with no bags for 7 days vs dry hopped with bag for 5 days

Thanks for all of the feedback, since it was my first all grain I thought I really messed up the mash. Not looking too bad from that point of view now. Comparing both processes there looks like a lot of differences in what I did with each batch. Still amazed at the taste being that of a completely different beer. It's not even close.

P.S. bigljd do you ever go to the Carolina Brewmasters meetings?

 

[bigljd]

P.S. bigljd do you ever go to the Carolina Brewmasters meetings?

Yup, I'm a member. I'll be at the next meeting on the 4th. If you're going to be there, let me know and we'll meet up.

 

[wailingguitar]

Ok, since you were referencing flavor being "citrusy" in the first and not in the second.. I imagine that with more vigorous boil for AG you may have boiled off a little of the flavor/aroma compounds of finishing hops. Your dry hopping may be the major culprit... longer time and loose hops on the first as opposed to slightly shorty and bagged on the second. While lots of people do dry hop with bags (for good reason) it can give erratic results... sometimes the hops in the middle of the bag take longer to hydrate, the flavor/aroma compounds don't disperse well etc. When using a bag I like to try to leave them in contact much longer.

Your initial post zeroed in on hop flavor... what about perceived bitterness? Any differences there?

 

[RJS]

Dry hopped with no bags for 7 days vs dry hopped with bag for 5 days

Boom, there it is.

 

[RJS]

you need those hop oils all around, up and down.

 

[RJS]

never used a hop bag myself, for anything. What a hassle! gotta clean it and stuff?

 

[golphur]

All good info on the hops. I was trying to keep a little cleaner beer going into the keg. Ironically, just bought a funnel with screen for my next brew. Will be boiling without bags and hoping I catch the hops in the funnel screen on the way into the fermenter. Also planning on dry hopping another beer in the next several days. Will definitely plan on going no-bag and leave a little longer than 5 days. I was in beer crisis and had to move to keg earlier than I expected.

One final admission here is that my previous two kegs have been a Northstar IPA (Sculpin clone) and a Piny the Elder clone. I may have gone over the edge on my hop ingestion. Maybe my old standby Pale Ale just doesn't cut it any more. It is a clone recipe based on Three Floyd's Alpha King. Used to be one of my all-time favorites

 

[periwinkle1239]

I was in beer crisis and had to move to keg earlier than I expected.

I know that feeling!