First all-grain BIAB

[njohnsoncs]

I'm planning on doing my first all-grain brew using BIAB. How different is the process from partial mash BIAB? In particular, I've heard that the water ph is more of a concern with all-grain than partial mash and one should treat the water for this. I'm going to brew a 3 gallon batch, do I need to treat the water for ph? Is there anything else I need to do differently?

 

[soccerdad]

Do you have some acid malt (sauermalz) or lactic acid just in case you need it? If you know your water basics you can use one of the water calculators (like Brunwater) to determine what you need.. just add all your water in the mash cell and zero in the sparge cell.

 

[geoffm33]

How is the water where you are? I have never treated my water and my beer is fine. That is not to say you SHOULDN'T treat your water, just that you may not have to.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Do you have some acid malt (sauermalz) or lactic acid just in case you need it? If you know your water basics you can use one of the water calculators (like Brunwater) to determine what you need.. just add all your water in the mash cell and zero in the sparge cell.

I do not have either of those.

How is the water where you are? I have never treated my water and my beer is fine. That is not to say you SHOULDN'T treat your water, just that you may not have to.

I have never requested a water profile. I live in Philadelphia and I've been told by my LHBS that the water is decent for brewing except for the chlorine and chloramines, so I do currently add 1/2 campden tablet to my brew water but that is all.

 

[Biscuits]

Don't worry about the water right now. Just focus on getting through the brew day and once you have your process nailed down then you can start worrying about the micro-stuff such as water chemistry.

 

[soccerdad]

He's right.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Sounds good, thanks!

 

[rhys333]

As mentioned, I'd worry about getting your process down first. Then it's a very good idea to start looking and water, and many (like me) choose to use RO water and build up the minerals from scratch.

One questions though - what are you using as your bag? I've found that the more open weave bags let a lot of particulates though, resulting in some unpleasant off-flavors (notably astringency). The superfine mesh bags work great though. I use the Wilserbrewer bag.

 

[h22lude]

Don't worry about the water right now. Just focus on getting through the brew day and once you have your process nailed down then you can start worrying about the micro-stuff such as water chemistry.

This is a common statement to new AG brewers but I highly disagree with it. Water is the #1 ingredient in beer and needs to be looked at by all AG brewers. There is no advice I recommend giving a new AG brewer for using water without adjusting it. Whether you say use your tap water or use RO water. Both can be bad without adjusting. There is a chance both would be ok to use without making any adjustments but would you chance it with a $30 to $40 batch, 3 hours of brew time and 3 weeks of waiting for fermentation and carbonation? I wouldn't.

Water chemistry is a very complicated subject and takes lots of research. Water adjusting on the other hand is very easy to figure out.

OP, I suggest you read the water primer sticky. Use store bought RO water and add the additions the primer tells you to. It is as simple as that. You are already measuring out 1/2 a campden tablet. Using the water primer is that easy. Measure the amount and add it to the water. This way you know the water is fine and if you get an off flavor, you can eliminate the water as the culprit. If you use RO or your tap water without adjusting, that could be the cause of an off flavor. After you get a few AG batches under your belt using the water primer, then you can look into something like Bru'n Water and adjust RO water to your liking. More complicated than the primer but still very easy to understand. Bru'n Water makes it very easy to adjust your water to the water profile you want.

 

[njohnsoncs]

As mentioned, I'd worry about getting your process down first. Then it's a very good idea to start looking and water, and many (like me) choose to use RO water and build up the minerals from scratch.

One questions though - what are you using as your bag? I've found that the more open weave bags let a lot of particulates though, resulting in some unpleasant off-flavors (notably astringency). The superfine mesh bags work great though. I use the Wilserbrewer bag.

I'm using a 5 gallon paint strainer bag.

This is a common statement to new AG brewers but I highly disagree with it. Water is the #1 ingredient in beer and needs to be looked at by all AG brewers. There is no advice I recommend giving a new AG brewer for using water without adjusting it. Whether you say use your tap water or use RO water. Both can be bad without adjusting. There is a chance both would be ok to use without making any adjustments but would you chance it with a $30 to $40 batch, 3 hours of brew time and 3 weeks of waiting for fermentation and carbonation? I wouldn't.

Water chemistry is a very complicated subject and takes lots of research. Water adjusting on the other hand is very easy to figure out.

OP, I suggest you read the water primer sticky. Use store bought RO water and add the additions the primer tells you to. It is as simple as that. You are already measuring out 1/2 a campden tablet. Using the water primer is that easy. Measure the amount and add it to the water. This way you know the water is fine and if you get an off flavor, you can eliminate the water as the culprit. If you use RO or your tap water without adjusting, that could be the cause of an off flavor. After you get a few AG batches under your belt using the water primer, then you can look into something like Bru'n Water and adjust RO water to your liking. More complicated than the primer but still very easy to understand. Bru'n Water makes it very easy to adjust your water to the water profile you want.

I'll consider this. I haven't noticed any terrible off flavors in my partial mash brews. Is going to all-grain using the same water going to make that big of a difference?

A related question, I've been on the low side for my efficiency during my partial mashes - in the 50-60% range a couple times. If I happen to miss my OG, I can always add some DME correct? If I'm brewing an IPA and pumpkin ale, what type of DME should I use? Something like golden light DME?

 

[h22lude]

I'll consider this. I haven't noticed any terrible off flavors in my partial mash brews. Is going to all-grain using the same water going to make that big of a difference?

A related question, I've been on the low side for my efficiency during my partial mashes - in the 50-60% range a couple times. If I happen to miss my OG, I can always add some DME correct? If I'm brewing an IPA and pumpkin ale, what type of DME should I use? Something like golden light DME?

Yes, water means a lot more for AG than it does for partial mash. If you use your tap water without getting a report, you may have a high mash pH. You also won't know how high or low your ions are which can change certain beers. If you want to brew an IPA and have low sulfate, you may not get the bitterness you want. To me, something as simple as following the water primer is such a good insurance. If you used your tap water or RO water without adding salts, you could have a full batch of beer that you don't enjoy. Why chance that when all you have to do is buy some gypsum and CaCl and add a small amount based on the beer you brew (for the water primer you need to use RO).

Yes if you miss your OG, find an online calculator to determine how much DME you need. A light DME is great. Don't chase high efficiency though. It is nice to have 70 to 80 but if you have 60, just buy another pound or so of grains to get the OG you need. One thing with BIAB is you can mill your grains finer so do that and your efficiency may go up a good amount.

Also, take good notes during your first few batches and use a program like BeerSmith. You will dial in your system and know exactly what you need for each batch going forward.

 

[rhys333]

I'm using a 5 gallon paint strainer bag.



I'll consider this. I haven't noticed any terrible off flavors in my partial mash brews. Is going to all-grain using the same water going to make that big of a difference?

A related question, I've been on the low side for my efficiency during my partial mashes - in the 50-60% range a couple times. If I happen to miss my OG, I can always add some DME correct? If I'm brewing an IPA and pumpkin ale, what type of DME should I use? Something like golden light DME?

Those paint strainer bags will get you by, but be wary if it has a loose weave.

Do you recall if your low efficiency batches were pale or dark beers? Reason i ask is that at a glance Philly water looks to work well for paler beers. In my experience you can't go wrong with Bru'n Water. Once you've familiarized yourself with the spreadsheet layout it's really easy to understand.

 

[cloudybrewer]

When h22lude says to read the water primer sticky, I believe he means this part, in particular.


"Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum."


This requires you to use either distilled or reverse osmosis water.

 

[h22lude]

When h22lude says to read the water primer sticky, I believe he means this part, in particular.


"Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum."


This requires you to use either distilled or reverse osmosis water.

Exactly. The whole primer is worth a read but this quoted section is the meat of it. Just find the style beer you are brewing and add what it says. These figures are for each 5 gallons so adjust if you are doing smaller batches.

 

[PsychoBiter]

It is worth the very small added expense to buy RO water and do the additions. Use a water calculator and have better beer for just a little money and effort.

 

[Possum55]

I kindda have to question all this water stuff as a homebrewer. I like going on the premise that if your water taste good, use it. To me, no matter the recipe, it you got good country water, your making the beer your own. Just my two cents, no offense meant. Course, as I get into this more, hey, I'm willing to make changes....even though I am an old dog...LOL

 

[owmatooth]

I'm with Possum, but to each his own. But I will admit to adding 2 campden tablets to my tap water to rid myself of choramines (the newest epa version of chlorine). As long as you're consistant and the beer is coming out the way you want, you can make things as simple or complicated as your heart desires.

I also second the wilserbrewer bag. Made my brewing as simple as I can stand.

 

[brew703]

If you are going to do BIAB get a good bag. The paint strainer bags and the ones sold at the LHBS are crap. I used to use them but would never last past a handful of brews before the stitching would loosen.

Also, if your LHBS mills your grain, have them double mill as it probably will not be fine enough. You may want to invest in a grain mill. Most can be had for under $100.

If you are worried about efficiency, add 10-15% more base malt. I don't really worry about it as I'm usually in the 75%+ range.

As for water, if your faucet water taste good then it's probably ok for brewing. I would try a batch using distilled water and add minerals to match what bru n water shows and see if there is any difference.

 

[Foosier]

h22lude is correct. Water does affect the beer you are able to produce due to the interplay of the malt and other ingredients with your water's chemistry. This is complicated and can result in some weird flavors you have not run into with your partial mash brews.

However, will this result in something undrinkable? Likely no. In my experience the impact varied depending on the type of beer I was brewing. Dark beers never came out the way I wanted them. Lighter colored beers (bitters, IPA's, etc...) tasted okay. As I tried to understand how to make my best beer, I realized what all experienced brewers know. Water chemistry is very important.

My point is this. Water chemistry is important as has been said by many in this thread. You can brew without worrying about your water, but there will be impacts. You may or may not notice them. When you do notice them, know that you need to learn about water and develop a plan to manage yours.

 

[h22lude]

I kindda have to question all this water stuff as a homebrewer. I like going on the premise that if your water taste good, use it. To me, no matter the recipe, it you got good country water, your making the beer your own. Just my two cents, no offense meant. Course, as I get into this more, hey, I'm willing to make changes....even though I am an old dog...LOL

While good tasting water will more times than not make good beer, it doesn't always. Your water can taste fine but it causes a high mash pH which will lower efficiency and can cause tannin extraction. Also, not knowing your water profile can create a beer flavor that you didn't want or weren't expecting (i.e. low sulfates not making a bitter IPA or very high sulfates that make all your beers more bitter than you want).

Adding salts to your water is very easy. Search what a good water profile is for the beer style you are brewing. Enter that into Bru'n Water and add the different salts until you get to that profile. Took me less than 30 minutes to learn Bru'n Water and takes me less than 5 minutes to get the salt addition amounts I need per batch.

 

[Biscuits]

This is a common statement to new AG brewers but I highly disagree with it. Water is the #1 ingredient in beer and needs to be looked at by all AG brewers. There is no advice I recommend giving a new AG brewer for using water without adjusting it. Whether you say use your tap water or use RO water. Both can be bad without adjusting. There is a chance both would be ok to use without making any adjustments but would you chance it with a $30 to $40 batch, 3 hours of brew time and 3 weeks of waiting for fermentation and carbonation? I wouldn't.

Water chemistry is a very complicated subject and takes lots of research. Water adjusting on the other hand is very easy to figure out.

OP, I suggest you read the water primer sticky. Use store bought RO water and add the additions the primer tells you to. It is as simple as that. You are already measuring out 1/2 a campden tablet. Using the water primer is that easy. Measure the amount and add it to the water. This way you know the water is fine and if you get an off flavor, you can eliminate the water as the culprit. If you use RO or your tap water without adjusting, that could be the cause of an off flavor. After you get a few AG batches under your belt using the water primer, then you can look into something like Bru'n Water and adjust RO water to your liking. More complicated than the primer but still very easy to understand. Bru'n Water makes it very easy to adjust your water to the water profile you want.

Like yo usaid...water is a very complicated subject. Even those of us who think we know what we're doing with our water;really don't. For a new all grain brewer it can be extremely overwhelming to try and know everything before they perform their first brew. So much so that they get stuck in an information rut because they end up going down the rabbit hole.

I didn't say that water isn't important, I just said that it's better to simply brew and get your process nailed down and then worry about the little details that take your beer to the next level.

I mean, sure adjust your water to perfection, but without fermentation temp control..what's the point? Oh, down't forget to pitch the right amount of yeast...so perform a starter...you might also want to consider the intricacies of mash thickness in relation to final product....I could go on, but you can see how deep the ocean of knowledge can get-really fast-if you try to know everything before you put the kettle to the flame.

So, I say again...screw the micro-details and just brew. Once you can consistently hit your volumes and gravities, then start incorporating the more involved areas of brewing to get your product to the next level. If you try to know it all before you start...you'll never start...or worse you'll learn all the wrong stuff and chase your tail forever trying to fix it.


Sorry for the rant.

 

[rhys333]

I kindda have to question all this water stuff as a homebrewer. I like going on the premise that if your water taste good, use it. To me, no matter the recipe, it you got good country water, your making the beer your own. Just my two cents, no offense meant. Course, as I get into this more, hey, I'm willing to make changes....even though I am an old dog...LOL

You have a good point here, but there are a couple variables that tip the scales towards RO water and minerals for homebrewing.

The first one is our tendency as homebrewers to brew a different recipe every time, causing a shift the mash pH. Most pro brewers don't face this problem due to working with a few standardized recipes.

The second big reason that affects many homebrewers (me included) is that we have to contend with river water rather than ground water supply. In my hometown, mineral levels and alkalinity can vary wildly depending on the weather and season, so after some struggling I ended up switching to RO + minerals. It got rid of the guesswork for me, and made things easier to boot.

 

[h22lude]

Like yo usaid...water is a very complicated subject. Even those of us who think we know what we're doing with our water;really don't. For a new all grain brewer it can be extremely overwhelming to try and know everything before they perform their first brew. So much so that they get stuck in an information rut because they end up going down the rabbit hole.

I didn't say that water isn't important, I just said that it's better to simply brew and get your process nailed down and then worry about the little details that take your beer to the next level.

I mean, sure adjust your water to perfection, but without fermentation temp control..what's the point? Oh, down't forget to pitch the right amount of yeast...so perform a starter...you might also want to consider the intricacies of mash thickness in relation to final product....I could go on, but you can see how deep the ocean of knowledge can get-really fast-if you try to know everything before you put the kettle to the flame.

So, I say again...screw the micro-details and just brew. Once you can consistently hit your volumes and gravities, then start incorporating the more involved areas of brewing to get your product to the next level. If you try to know it all before you start...you'll never start...or worse you'll learn all the wrong stuff and chase your tail forever trying to fix it.


Sorry for the rant.

But I guess my point is, I don't feel water is a micro detail. I'd put it up there with pitch rate and fermentation temp.

I said water chemistry is a very complicated subject. I feel water additions aren't complicated at all. In my opinion, I don't see how it is hard to buy RO water and follow the water primer. My wife could do that without knowing anything about brewing. Find the style that closest matches what you are brewing. See what the primer recommends based on the baseline and add that suggested amount of salt based on 5 gallons. I'm looking to brew a pilsner with 8 gallons of water treated. The baseline is .2oz oz of CaCl per gallon and 2% of the total grain bill is acid malt. For soft water beers it says half the CaCl and skip the acid malt. So I'd throw in .8oz of CaCl and that's it. For 2 minutes of looking at the primer, I know my RO water is at least good for brewing a pilsner. May not be the best but it will be better than going in using unknown tap water.

And to go on your last statement "...or worse you'll learn all the wrong stuff and chase your tail forever trying to fix it." I see this as part of my argument. People telling new AG brewers to use their tap water without getting it tested could cause off flavors and have the brewer chasing their tail trying to figure out what went wrong. Using RO water with the primer eliminates water as the cause of off flavors.

 

[Morrey]

Sooner or later, most home brewers tackle the great water frontier. If you wish to use source water as you suggest, you may want to get a lab report....that's the later part. The sooner part is getting RO water and making a few simple adjustments.

The sticky makes it simple since RO water is theoretically the same if you buy yours there and if I buy mine here. Makes it easy to adjust as standardized additions depending on the beer. More difficult is adjusting tap water since yours may be wildly different than mine.

Have a fun brew day and don't stress over it too much.

 

[Morrey]

I mean, sure adjust your water to perfection, but without fermentation temp control..what's the point?

Absolutely. And don't forget sanitation rules! W/O these two processes well controlled, no amount of water adjustments made will make any difference.

 

[h22lude]

Absolutely. And don't forget sanitation rules! W/O these two processes well controlled, no amount of water adjustments made will make any difference.

And I absolutely agree but the way this is written, it sounds like it is an either or situation, when it isn't. Sanitation, pitch rate, aeration, fermentation temp and water are all important factors. One off factor can throw a great beer down to a good beer or even a dumper...and water is one of those factors.

We all brew the way we want. I'm not telling anyone they need to look at water. If someone wants to use their tap water without getting it tested or using salts, that is fine. What I am saying is, it is bad practice to say good tasting tap water makes good beer. This just isn't true. I'd rather give the new AG brewer all the right info and let them decide for themselves if they want to look into water or not.

 

[Morrey]

And I absolutely agree but the way this is written, it sounds like it is an either or situation, when it isn't. Sanitation, pitch rate, aeration, fermentation temp and water are all important factors. One off factor can throw a great beer down to a good beer or even a dumper...and water is one of those factors.

We all brew the way we want. I'm not telling anyone they need to look at water. If someone wants to use their tap water without getting it tested or using salts, that is fine. What I am saying is, it is bad practice to say good tasting tap water makes good beer. This just isn't true. I'd rather give the new AG brewer all the right info and let them decide for themselves if they want to look into water or not.

Didn't intend to sound either or, not what I intended. I am thinking of building a course syllabus to create a continuing education Home Brewing course at our local technical college. I have taught several engineering courses there, and think a basic brewing course would be popular.

My thinking is being honed now, so these posts are guiding me in the way I hope to approach my course outline. My brother in law is an example of how I think I made a mistake: I didn't stress water management to him at first, rather preached process from day one. I told him we would get into water later on. Now that he has made a dozen beers on his own, he wont engage with me on the water issue. I know his beer is lacking and I know why. But his beer is good, just not as good as it should be with water additions or adjustments.

I'm still trying to put all of this into proper order w/o intimidating a student. I have been chipping away at home brewing since the late 1980's, so how do I impart enough knowledge to a student in a 6 week evening course meeting twice a week? This is a tough one.

 

[h22lude]

Didn't intend to sound either or, not what I intended. I am thinking of building a course syllabus to create a continuing education Home Brewing course at our local technical college. I have taught several engineering courses there, and think a basic brewing course would be popular.

My thinking is being honed now, so these posts are guiding me in the way I hope to approach my course outline. My brother in law is an example of how I think I made a mistake: I didn't stress water management to him at first, rather preached process from day one. I told him we would get into water later on. Now that he has made a dozen beers on his own, he wont engage with me on the water issue. I know his beer is lacking and I know why. But his beer is good, just not as good as it should be with water additions or adjustments.

I'm still trying to put all of this into proper order w/o intimidating a student. I have been chipping away at home brewing since the late 1980's, so how do I impart enough knowledge to a student in a 6 week evening course meeting twice a week? This is a tough one.

That's a cool idea. If I lived anywhere near you I would have offered to help.

Never even thought about that type of issue that you are having with your BIL. I'm the type of person that looks into what I can do to make my beer even better but there are a lot of people that enjoy the beer they make and don't feel like going any further even if they know they could make better beer. This goes for any hobby. Nothing wrong with that. Different types of people. Definitely an interesting take on what a beginner should read about. Maybe if he knew more about water from the start he would be making great beer instead of good beer.

I think a good way to get into water is talk about the 4 main ingredients first. When talking about water mention how it can affect the beer based on the ions and alkalinity. Just touch on the subject so they are aware that water is important and mention water will be talked about more when AG is discussed. Then when you talk about the AG process, bring water back up and go into detail about it.

 

[Morrey]

That's a cool idea. If I lived anywhere near you I would have offered to help.

Never even thought about that type of issue that you are having with your BIL. I'm the type of person that looks into what I can do to make my beer even better but there are a lot of people that enjoy the beer they make and don't feel like going any further even if they know they could make better beer. This goes for any hobby. Nothing wrong with that. Different types of people. Definitely an interesting take on what a beginner should read about. Maybe if he knew more about water from the start he would be making great beer instead of good beer.

I think a good way to get into water is talk about the 4 main ingredients first. When talking about water mention how it can affect the beer based on the ions and alkalinity. Just touch on the subject so they are aware that water is important and mention water will be talked about more when AG is discussed. Then when you talk about the AG process, bring water back up and go into detail about it.

I plan to approach the Director of Continuing Education and ask his thoughts on a course...they may balk at promoting brewing since alcohol is involved on a conservative campus. Age restrictions may be a topic, then equipment. I wouldn't want to have the lab portion of the class at my house so I'd need to set up a brewing lab there. There are other schools that offer degrees in brewing science, so this is not a totally foreign idea. But this would be a non-credit course that would mostly cater to specific interests in the evenings after work. A friend of mine there teaches a pilot's ground school course....selective subjects people are interested in.

I'll propose classroom periods followed by on hands lab experiences where we'd brew. I hate to sound non-creative, but it would be simple to build a course format using Palmer's How to Brew book. This may be my required course book for information, but like we are discussing, re-shift the focus on water as a major component instead of "we'll get there sooner or later". If water seems to be an afterthought, students may not realize the impact (or importance) this subject matter will have on the finished product.

I wish you were closer as two minds are better than one....especially in the design phase of the course. I need to focus on the major building blocks of knowledge that will be a foundation. To be sure, water will be a major building block.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have never requested a water profile. I live in Philadelphia and I've been told by my LHBS that the water is decent for brewing except for the chlorine and chloramines, so I do currently add 1/2 campden tablet to my brew water but that is all.

If that's what the local advice is, then follow it for the time being. The beer will be fine and you have lots of other things to worry about that will have more direct effect on your beer. The fact that you're already brewing decent beer is another reason to be relaxed. I think you can sum it up as :

Water is of 3/10 importance to make good beer, but 8/10 importance to make great beer.

At this stage you just need to know that it's got no nasties in it, which you don't need a water report to know - if you can taste the chlorine, or it's hard enough that everything furs up, then it needs some adjustment, but if it just tastes like "water" then it's good enough to make good beer. On the other hand if you do run into problems, then it's one of the first things to look at.

If you want to do more than just follow the LHBS advice then one easy option is to look on your water company's website for a water report - I don't know how it works over there but in the UK you just enter your postcode to get the latest report for your local reservoir. It's not an ideal replacement for a test on your actual water supply, but for non-commercial brewers using the public supply, it's good enough. Things you are looking for are calcium (Ca), chloride (Cl), sulfate (SO4), total hardness or carbonates (CO3) or similar (they're frustratingly inconsistent in how they present this) and pH.

You need a certain amount of calcium for the mash enzymes to work, the ratio of chloride:sulfate affects the bitterness and mouthfeel (NEIPAs are high chloride, West Coast IPAs are high sulfate). You can reduce some forms of hardness by boiling the water the night before, hardness also means higher pH. Most water benefits from half a teaspoon of gypsum (calcium sulfate) if you're making bitter-led beers.

The pH in the report just gives an idea of what you're up against, the only pH that matters is what is actually going on in your mash. Somewhere around 5.3-5.4 means your starch conversion enzymes will all be fairly happy, it's like mashing at 150F you can tweak it either side to favour different enzymes. But pH is not quite as critical as people make out - unless the mash is drifting up >6 when you may get off-flavours, but you need pretty bad starting water for that to happen.

So the place to start is with some pH papers - they're pretty crude but they give you a reasonable idea of where your mash is at. You can use all sorts of things to change pH - normally you need to reduce it a little bit, my brewing water starts at pH 7.5 and my normal 100% pale malt mash is about 5.8. Dark malts are more acid, so you may not need any adjustment if you're making a porter etc. If you're brewing to the Reinheitsgebot you'll have to make adjustments using acid malt, but normal people just use things like lactic acid - again your LHBS will advise. I have used a small slug of wine vinegar in an emergency, although it's not ideal - heck, you could even use Pepsi! Probably only in a dark beer though - a Pepsi porter?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My brother in law... has made a dozen beers on his own, he wont engage with me on the water issue.

You need to have words with your sister about a replacement....

Perhaps the way to do it is to spike samples of some of his or your brew with chloride or sulfate solution and get him to try them blind. If he's a hophead, perhaps present them as new hops, maybe even give him one or two samples beforehand of a neutral brew spiked with a pellet or two of different hops (recap and leave 3 days if you're using commercial lager for that). If he can see that water chemistry causes difference as great as different hop varieties then maybe he will get the message.

I'm still trying to put all of this into proper order w/o intimidating a student. I have been chipping away at home brewing since the late 1980's, so how do I impart enough knowledge to a student in a 6 week evening course meeting twice a week? This is a tough one.

Interesting one - not least to fit within the time constraints, both of the whole course and a single session - the latter will push you mostly towards extract I assume? And no-chill? How about one session a week is more "practical" (with some teaching in between), the other more classroom and ?tasting commercial beer styles? and off-flavours etc? Have a big theme to each week, exemplified by the brew. If you do the first and last of 5 brews, and the students are in groups of three then each will end up with one batch of beer but will have had hands-on experience of three. So something like :

Week 1 - "Water" - you do an extract lager to show basic process (and needs time to lager) More on the "flavour ions" side, Burton etc.
Week 2 - "Malt" - they do an extract stout - nice easy recipe and should be fairly forgiving of mistakes, no hops after the kettle
Week 3 - "Hops" - the one they will have been waiting for They do an extract West Coast IPA, with whirlpool hops
Week 4 - "Yeast" - and beyond the Reinheitsgebot - they do an extract fruit sour. Now's the time to go more into detail on pH, when they can taste it! Also wood chips in some of the stouts from week 2?
Week 5 - "All grain" - you demonstrate an all-grain NEIPA - at least the mash stage, even if you have to finish it after the lesson, once it's in the kettle there's nothing they've not seen before. Theory of mashing, more on hops, theory of dry-hopping etc.
Week 6 - "CO2" - packaging, troubleshooting, more dry hops in the NEIPA (and let them take some away, so they taste an all-grain brew), drinking the homework!

 

[h22lude]

I plan to approach the Director of Continuing Education and ask his thoughts on a course...they may balk at promoting brewing since alcohol is involved on a conservative campus. Age restrictions may be a topic, then equipment. I wouldn't want to have the lab portion of the class at my house so I'd need to set up a brewing lab there. There are other schools that offer degrees in brewing science, so this is not a totally foreign idea. But this would be a non-credit course that would mostly cater to specific interests in the evenings after work. A friend of mine there teaches a pilot's ground school course....selective subjects people are interested in.

I'll propose classroom periods followed by on hands lab experiences where we'd brew. I hate to sound non-creative, but it would be simple to build a course format using Palmer's How to Brew book. This may be my required course book for information, but like we are discussing, re-shift the focus on water as a major component instead of "we'll get there sooner or later". If water seems to be an afterthought, students may not realize the impact (or importance) this subject matter will have on the finished product.

I wish you were closer as two minds are better than one....especially in the design phase of the course. I need to focus on the major building blocks of knowledge that will be a foundation. To be sure, water will be a major building block.

Being a conservative college, it may be tough but brewing science is becoming bigger at a lot of colleges. A local well known culinary college (Johnson and Wales) just added brewing courses. Not sure if it is a degree or certificate.

Using HTB as your outline is a great idea. No point in reinventing the wheel. You may need to talk to John or the publisher on using it but I'd bet they would allow it especially if you make it a required book each student has to purchase.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Revisiting this thread... I'm considering getting distilled water and building up the profile from there as suggested by several people. One question I have is if I plan on brewing a 3 gallon batch using ~2.5 gallons for the mash and ~1.5 gallons sparge, do I need to treat the sparge water or can I just use tap?

 

[Morrey]

Being a conservative college, it may be tough but brewing science is becoming bigger at a lot of colleges. A local well known culinary college (Johnson and Wales) just added brewing courses. Not sure if it is a degree or certificate.

Using HTB as your outline is a great idea. No point in reinventing the wheel. You may need to talk to John or the publisher on using it but I'd bet they would allow it especially if you make it a required book each student has to purchase.

The Dean laughed at my request to teach a brewing course on campus. He referenced that fact they don't allow tobacco on campus...so what makes me think alcohol will fly?

Anyhoo, a buddy just re-opened his brewery in a new location with room to spare. We chatted and he may be interested in kicking tires and seeing what we may come up with. There is hope yet.

 

[h22lude]

The Dean laughed at my request to teach a brewing course on campus. He referenced that fact they don't allow tobacco on campus...so what makes me think alcohol will fly?

Anyhoo, a buddy just re-opened his brewery in a new location with room to spare. We chatted and he may be interested in kicking tires and seeing what we may come up with. There is hope yet.

That's too bad.

That would be cool if you could do something at your buddy's brewery.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Revisiting this thread... I'm considering getting distilled water and building up the profile from there as suggested by several people. One question I have is if I plan on brewing a 3 gallon batch using ~2.5 gallons for the mash and ~1.5 gallons sparge, do I need to treat the sparge water or can I just use tap?

It seems like I may only need to treat the mash water since the sparge is only for rinsing the sugars off the grain. Thoughts?

 

[Biscuits]

It seems like I may only need to treat the mash water since the sparge is only for rinsing the sugars off the grain. Thoughts?

Typically you treat both, except your sparge water pH is okay if it is more acidic...so you won't add any acid to it, you only need to add stuff like calcium chloride and gypsum.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Typically you treat both, except your sparge water pH is okay if it is more acidic...so you won't add any acid to it, you only need to add stuff like calcium chloride and gypsum.

My tap water has a lot of chlorine / chloramines so I've been using campden tablets to treat it for my partial mashes. Now that I'm moving to all-grain, I've been told I need to treat my water more so I plan on using distilled water and building the profile. For the mash water I understand why but for sparge water I do not understand why I need to do anything if I'm using distilled. If I want to use tap for sparge, it seems like I only need to use campden to get rid of the chlorine / chloramines. Thoughts?

 

[Biscuits]

My tap water has a lot of chlorine / chloramines so I've been using campden tablets to treat it for my partial mashes. Now that I'm moving to all-grain, I've been told I need to treat my water more so I plan on using distilled water and building the profile. For the mash water I understand why but for sparge water I do not understand why I need to do anything if I'm using distilled. If I want to use tap for sparge, it seems like I only need to use campden to get rid of the chlorine / chloramines. Thoughts?

The other salts like Chloride / Gypsum are flavor salts and effect the presentation of malt/hops so you want those in your sparge water to maintain their effects otherwise you'll be essentially diluting what you've added to your sparge water. Now, if you're only adding those salts to your mash water for their effect on pH then, no, you won't worry about them in your sparge water...but at that point I would argue why add them at all and not just use baking soda or acid to raise or lower your pH?

 

[Possum55]

h22lude, What is, (for the water primer you need to use RO). Specifically "water primer". Just curious. Thanks