First AG beer tastes more like BMC. Where did I go wrong?

[marubozo]

I finally got around to tasting my first AG beer in a finished and carbed state, but I'm a bit disappointed. I'm sure I made a number of mistakes so I was hoping to run down the recipe and process for you guys to see if I'm missing something or if I just goofed somewhere.

It's a fairly basic amber ale, but to be honest, if you've ever had the beer Red Dog, that's almost exactly what it tastes like. Has a perfect amber color, is nice and clear, but the beer tastes very thin, dry, with no malt presence and there's no detectable hop flavor, just that cheap background bitterness you get with a lot of BMC beers. I'm sure I could take the keg to a college party and they would finish it off in a matter of minutes, but it isn't doing it for me.

Recipe

9.5# 2-row
1# Special B
0.5 Crystal 90
0.25 White Wheat Malt

2 oz crystal hops @ 60
0.5 oz crystal @ 15
0.5 oz crystal @ flameout

Nottingham fermented at 61-62
Bottled spring water.

Process

I have a rectangular 10 gal cooler with a stainless braid. I added 3.5 gallons of 173 degree water to the grains and it gave me a mash temp of 152. The temp fell slightly over the course of an hour and finished at 150. A bit lower than I had hoped.

I batch sparged in two steps. When the hour mash was done I added around 1.75 gallons of 170 degree water and stirred thoroughly for a few minutes before letting the grain settle for a few minutes. I recirculated maybe 10 quarts and the wort was looking pretty clear so I emptied into the kettle. After getting as much wort out as possible I closed the valve and added another 4 gallons of 170 degree water and repeated the process.

Beersmith predicted a boil volume of 6.8 gallons, and after all said and done it was pretty much right on and I think I had 6.75 collected.

I obviously had efficiency problems being my first time and the expected gravity going into the kettle was 1.046 and I only had 1.040. Did the boil as planned and got really close to my final 5.25 gallon volume. Gravity after the boil was only 1.044 and expected was 1.052. I had planned on a 65% efficiency but only ended up at around 55% overall so I know I can improve that (I've done another batch since and was able to get up to 65% so it's getting better).

Pitched the yeast at about 58 and fermentation got going a little over 60 about 36 hours later. It spent about 20 days in the fermenter before going to the keg for another few weeks. Final gravity came in at 1.012.

Conclusion

There, you can see my recipe and process and pick it apart. I'm hoping more time heals the beer, but there's just no flavor to heal it seems like. I know I mashed too low and didn't get a good conversion and had low efficiency so that's going to make the beer a little weaker and drier, but that can't be the only thing wrong that makes this beer taste like something you'd grab in a 40oz from the gas station, can it?

 

[bob1852]

sounds like you know your problem already.

Low mash temp, and low efficiency.

Try the exact same grain bill and mash at 158*F so you can see the extreme differences temperatures can make.

Oh, and make sure your thermometers are accurate

 

[shecky]

Have to agree with AZ. You obviously didn't know you what your efficiency would be because you don't have your system down yet. You could, as AZ said, up the mash temp with the same grain bill or use more grain to make up for the efficiency loss.

I had the same issues on my first AG. Once you get your process and system dialed in, you'll get more consistency and know how to get what you're looking for.

 

[bob1852]

A couple of other things now that I read in more detail:

1) I would preheat your mash tun (it sounds like you added the grain to a "cold" cooler and then added the 173 water?) - I like to add hot water to the cooler, allow the cooler to suck up the heat, and then strike when it's about 11-13 degrees hotter than what I want to mash at

2) How often did you check your mash temp? Opening the lid will obviously lead to quicker heat loss. I like to stir well, check after 10 minutes to make sure it's not way off, and then wait until the full hour (or longer) before opening it up again.

3) Did you drain the first runnings before your sparge? It doesn't sound like it. I always do.

4) What was your grain bed temp during the 2nd sparge? If your mash was basically 150, I doubt the 170 sparge water got you much above 160. I like to sparge at 180-185 to make sure that grain bed gets up to ~168.

5) Wait, this is bozo's first AG?

 

[bob1852]

Have to agree with AZ.

hmmmm....maybe time to recreate my signature?

 

[marubozo]

Have to agree with AZ. You obviously didn't know you what your efficiency would be because you don't have your system down yet. You could, as AZ said, up the mash temp with the same grain bill or use more grain to make up for the efficiency loss.

Yeah, when I set up the recipe I just used 65% because I figured that would be pretty normal for a first timer. I probably overestimated my abilities

A couple of other things now that I read in more detail:

1) I would preheat your mash tun (it sounds like you added the grain to a "cold" cooler and then added the 173 water?) - I like to add hot water to the cooler, allow the cooler to suck up the heat, and then strike when it's about 11-13 degrees hotter than what I want to mash at

2) How often did you check your mash temp? Opening the lid will obviously lead to quicker heat loss. I like to stir well, check after 10 minutes to make sure it's not way off, and then wait until the full hour (or longer) before opening it up again.

3) Did you drain the first runnings before your sparge? It doesn't sound like it. I always do.

4) What was your grain bed temp during the 2nd sparge? If your mash was basically 150, I doubt the 170 sparge water got you much above 160. I like to sparge at 180-185 to make sure that grain bed gets up to ~168.

5) Wait, this is bozo's first AG?

1. Right, didn't preheat. I used beersmith's calculation and set up my equipment and it said 173 should have hit 154 but was 2 degrees off. On my next batch I did preheat and hit 154 perfectly, so that shouldn't be an issue going forward.

2. There is a digital probe thermometer running into the mash that's always on. No opening the lid at all during the hour.

3. I did not drain first. I added the sparge water and stirred before draining anything.

4. I didn't take a temp during the second sparge. Oops. You're right, given how low the temps already were I probably didn't get it as hot as expected.

5. Shuddap

Honestly, if the beer I'm getting is simply a result of missing my gravity by 8 points and mashing a few degrees too low, I just had no idea it could make that much of an impact. I knew going in that this beer was going to be a bit weaker and drier because of what happened, but I'm really shocked as to how it actually turned out.

 

[bob1852]

Honestly, if the beer I'm getting is simply a result of missing my gravity by 8 points and mashing a few degrees too low, I just had no idea it could make that much of an impact. I knew going in that this beer was going to be a bit weaker and drier because of what happened, but I'm really shocked as to how it actually turned out.

I can't remember what styles your normally brew, but I struggle still with "body" for my AG beers. I make an awesome 6.5% IPA, but IMO it still lacks body (which can be a problem, because I drink it like a BMC )

Also, give liquid yeast and a starter a try. I know the debate is a wash on here (liquid v. dry), but I swear my beers are much better when I use liquid. One of these days, I'm gonna do a 10 gallon batch of APA and ferment 1/2 with US-05, and 1/2 with 1056 & a starter (I'll need someone else to bottle them, so I won't be biased at all during tasting).

 

[marubozo]

Also, give liquid yeast and a starter a try. I know the debate is a wash on here (liquid v. dry), but I swear my beers are much better when I use liquid. One of these days, I'm gonna do a 10 gallon batch of APA and ferment 1/2 with US-05, and 1/2 with 1056 & a starter (I'll need someone else to bottle them, so I won't be biased at all during tasting).

I use liquid yeast on about half of my batches. Just not on this one. The next batch I did, but it's a completely different style so there will be no way to compare.

 

[shecky]

1. Right, didn't preheat. I used beersmith's calculation and set up my equipment and it said 173 should have hit 154 but was 2 degrees off. On my next batch I did preheat and hit 154 perfectly, so that shouldn't be an issue going forward.

2. There is a digital probe thermometer running into the mash that's always on. No opening the lid at all during the hour.

3. I did not drain first. I added the sparge water and stirred before draining anything.

4. I didn't take a temp during the second sparge. Oops. You're right, given how low the temps already were I probably didn't get it as hot as expected.

Always preheat. I heat my strike water about 4* degrees above what BS says. Let that sit until it gets down to target strike temp. My system generally gives a 14* degree drop when grain is added, but that obviously depends on the temp of the grain.

Definitely drain those first runnings. It pulls as many sugars as possible. Not draining could leave some behind.

The rest you appear to already know.

 

[Yooper]

Always preheat. I heat my strike water about 4* degrees above what BS says. Let that sit until it gets down to target strike temp. My system generally gives a 14* degree drop when grain is added, but that obviously depends on the temp of the grain.

Definitely drain those first runnings. It pulls as many sugars as possible. Not draining could leave some behind.

The rest you appear to already know.

I agree with Shecky.

If you don't preheat, the cooler will continue to absorb (as in "suck out") the heat over the mash time. If you preheat, you probably will only lose one degree over an hour or 90 minute mash.

If you're batch sparging, you have to drain the first runnings. I found that doing a mash out and then batch sparging, did NOT work as well as simply draining the MLT and then adding hotter sparge water. You can sparge pretty darn hot- it takes very hot water to raise your grain bed from the low 150s to 168.

 

[shecky]

I agree with Shecky.

Oh my, I'm blushing. Have I officially joined the ranks?

 

[bob1852]

I agree with Shecky.

Hey now! You can't agree with Shecky. He agreed with me firstest

Another thing JV - did you use 5.2 or any other water additions? I know the jury's out, but my efficiency seemed to jump a little when I was able to get my mash locked in at pH ~5.2

 

[marubozo]

Another thing JV - did you use 5.2 or any other water additions? I know the jury's out, but my efficiency seemed to jump a little when I was able to get my mash locked in at pH ~5.2

No idea on pH. Test strips are on their way with my latest order from AHS so that will be something I test next.

So I guess it basically comes down to preheating the MLT real good, making sure I hit the target temp, drain the first runnings before sparging, and make sure to use pretty hot sparge water.

In the meantime, I guess I'll have to keep this keg dedicated to my friends who prefer beers like bud and miller lite

 

[Yooper]

Hey now! You can't agree with Shecky. He agreed with me firstest

Another thing JV - did you use 5.2 or any other water additions? I know the jury's out, but my efficiency seemed to jump a little when I was able to get my mash locked in at pH ~5.2

But, Shecky agreed with you. I agreed with Shecky. Ergo, I agreed with you! I just want to be part of the "in" crowd!

 

[bob1852]

But, Shecky agreed with you. I agreed with Shecky. Ergo, I agreed with you! I just want to be part of the "in" crowd!

I think my head hurts now

'Bozo - sounds like you're well on your way. Heck, it took me about 4 AG batches before I figured out my thermometer was a piece of crap.

 

[shecky]

Bozo, maybe you have read this but I found Bobby M's tutorial to be the most helpful thing.
http://www.suebob.com/brew/allgrain.htm

 

[bob1852]

Bozo, maybe you have read this but I found Bobby M's tutorial to be the most helpful thing.
http://www.suebob.com/brew/allgrain.htm

As did I. (okay, we're even now shecky )

 

[erock2112]

Check your thermometer. I just brewed with my Dad who brought some fancy-pants digital thermometer that had been left by a contractor of some kind. My bimetal thermometer read, compared to the digital one, 5 degrees high during the mash (153F instead of 148F) and 10 degrees low when chilling to room temp (70F instead of 80F)... so if I rely on my bimetal thermometer, which reads 32F in ice water and 111F in boiling water, I'm mashing too low and pitching too hot. Even allowing for a couple of degrees of skew from the digital thermometer, I'm still pretty far off. Something to think about.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Another thing you can try for efficiency's sake would be mashing a little thicker (1QT per pound of grain). That will leave you more water for sparging. Also, sparge in two rounds using half of your sparge water in each. You can sparge hotter but be careful not to get the grain bed above 170*

You will need to up your late hop additions if you want to get more hop flavor. Missing your target OG by as much as you did should have really enhanced the hoppyness. As far as your malt bill goes, it looks pretty good to me. I would probably go with a full pound of cry90 and a half pound of special B if I were trying to add body to the recipe.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Tasting like BMC is actually a very good problem to have IMO. It means that there is a lot about your system that is OK. No funny tastes suggests that your sanitation is good, and fermentation temps are good. Good method all around except the mashing. That is an easier problem to fix than most others, so you are on a good path!