After trying to figure it out on my own and searching on Ontario beer kegs for products relating to it for a few weeks I have decided to break down and ask. Other then a cooler mash tun how are people mashing and heating there mash water. I use a cooler and if my temps drop I boil water and add. If it drops a lot wellll then I watch and hope for a good tasting dry beer as it will require a lot of water to bring my temps back up. I live in central Canada so the Seahawks game looked like a normal winter day to us so keeping mash temps up in a collar outside is Impossible and brewing in the kitchen isn't the most idle. In the garage would work great if I could figure the boiler system out. I am new to this hobby (5 all grain batches now averaging 75% efficiency) but want to make the best beer possible. I think a big improvement I can make is my mash temp stability. I assume the pots that everyone mashes in have a false bottom so when the flame is lit the grain does not scorch? Also with recirculating systems is there a system that has a heat pump or is it just a simple brew pump that recirculates the wort and then the flame below the brew pot heats the wort (again I'm assuming with a false bottom? Thanks for the help.
Finally going to ask this
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As additional insulation is not possible and heat loss is inevitable in your climate the obvious solution is to take steps to allow a more rapid mash rendering temperature loss less consequential.
Solution.
With the very fine crush you will need an unblockable and non-rigid manifold.
i.e. A bag. @Wilserbrewer makes great bags including custom ons designed for coolers.
A bag manifold can be lifted/squeezed to reduce grain absorption and increasing lautering efficiency if you decide to go with full volume mashes.
Another solution is to mash in a directly heatable mash-tun.
Solution.
- Crush very fine to make shorter mash times as effective
- Mash thinner (up to full volume) to create a greater mash mass with correspondingly greater resistance to temperature change.
With the very fine crush you will need an unblockable and non-rigid manifold.
i.e. A bag. @Wilserbrewer makes great bags including custom ons designed for coolers.
A bag manifold can be lifted/squeezed to reduce grain absorption and increasing lautering efficiency if you decide to go with full volume mashes.
Another solution is to mash in a directly heatable mash-tun.
It's up to you. A RIMS setup can have either direct heat under the mash tun or an external heat chamber where the recirculated wort runs past an electric heating element. A HERMS rig runs the wort through a heat exchanger coil inside a heated vessel (usually the HLT).
Izzie, very few people heat their mash tun directly. In your post you seemed to think people are heating their mash tun, but that's not common.
Mash tuns are typically insulated so there is very little loss of heat. That is the easiest solution - just add hot water and wait. Of course this requires the right amount of water at the right temperature for your grist.
Better systems have control of the mash temp through a heat exchanger (RIMS, where the mash wort is heated directly using an electrical element) or HERMS (where the mash wort is pumped through a container of hot water at mash temp).
Mash tuns are typically insulated so there is very little loss of heat. That is the easiest solution - just add hot water and wait. Of course this requires the right amount of water at the right temperature for your grist.
Better systems have control of the mash temp through a heat exchanger (RIMS, where the mash wort is heated directly using an electrical element) or HERMS (where the mash wort is pumped through a container of hot water at mash temp).
The rims system seems more like what I was looking for the answer too. Next stupid question is what's the acrynoum stand for?
I have seen a few people with brew pots as mash tuns and they seem to heat this directly. That's why I had assumed there was a false bottom to prevent grain scorching. With the rims system what keeps the grain from scorching to the electric element.
Yes, I've seen this too.
The best thing to do is use Beersmith to figure out what amount and temp of water to use, then put that water and your grist into an insulated cooler.
You might be overthinking this
Ok so this maybe a dream but could I jimmy rig up a pump through my mash tun out my valve, pump through a coil in a HLT and return to my mash tun. Im assuming this is a pure redneck HERMs system. Or is there a place you can find these already built and less red neck. I'm in Canada so our brew sources are pretty much limited to Ontario beer kegs and all they have is the HERMs coil.
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I live in northern MT, and it gets very cold days here as well. Today was a high of -2 F. My solution is heat strike and sparge water on stove, mash in my kitchen, and full boil outside. I also do five gallon batches so my strike and sparge volumes are around 4 - 4.5 gallons. My stove top heats to 170 F in about 15 min, a bit slower than LP burner but don't freeze my butt off and mash holds temperature perfect. Like you said its not ideal, but at least I can still brew beer.
Yes, I've seen this too.
The best thing to do is use Beersmith to figure out what amount and temp of water to use, then put that water and your grist into an insulated cooler.
You might be overthinking this
This is currently what I do but I find my temp drops 5-10F over a 90min mash. Any time a stir I lose about a degree. Was hoping to stir more and keep a more constant temp to improve efficiency.
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That is a decent description of any HERMS rig; nothing redneck about it. The cheapest way is to repurpose a simple copper wort chiller as a heat exchange coil and suspend it in the HLT - and then manually ride the HLT burner's regulator to control temperature. I did precisely that when I was evaluating the idea of a HERMS system for myself. I ended up buying a purpose-built exchanger coil and mounting it in the HLT, then rigging the HLT burner for thermostat control. Both setups fit the definition you offer.
I don't know how unusual a directly heated MLT is; every three burner stand you see can do it (and all of the new single vessel setups like Grainfather do, too - and most BIAB rigs). I have both HERMS and RIMS options available here. The directly heated MT RIMS mode has faster response but there is the danger of scorching wort if it gets out of control (just as with an external RIMS).
RIMS and HERMS are popular because folks like to recirculate their mash. When you do that, the cooler mash tuns can no longer hold mash temps for extended periods due to heat losses in the recirculation system. If you don't recirculate, a cooler MT will do fine. If you do recirculate, you'll probably need either external or direct heat RIMS, or HERMS.
This all makes sense to me now. I didn't realize that's what HERMs and rims was. I thought they were some computerized high tech brewing system. I think I'm going to work on a HERMs system with my current cooler mash tun. I use a braided toilet line in it so assuming I will need to upgrade to a rigid manifold so the pump doesn't crush it and add a ball valve for flow control. I was actually thinking of the wort chiller as you had suggested. Seems fairly simple. The rims system seems less practical then the HERMs system especially because of scorching.
A brief description of the common recirculation schemes can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/budget-herms-system-part-one.html
Stillraining
Well-Known Member
Cant you just bring your cooler mash tun in the house? I mean you can still "brew" outside but for the actual mash step just bring it indoors..that's what I do when its cold. I don't lose more then a degree or 2 doing that. Makes the house smell great to and is not messy at all or very intrusive. 5 gallon batches are easy to handle and move around even with one person, 10 is a bit harder just due to the weight and is best moved by two.
The external RIMS is probably the most popular of the three common setups. It has very fast response if the recirc flow rate is high (no system that heats only the recirculating wort can respond faster than the time required to pass the entire volume through the heat chamber). Because it is (nearly) always electric, controllers are cheap (no solenoid valves or pilots are required). Second fastest would be direct heat RIMS. Safest is HERMS (no directly heated wort).
SS costs more than copper, and transfers heat less efficiently. It is still my material of choice for a heat exchanger because of sanitation concerns. You can't see what is going on inside, where the wort flows.
Braumeise
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I mashed in my kitchen for the first time today.
Had the same prob. and did it like you did, add more hot water but did not get the temp up to where it should have been.
my recipe calls for mashing with 12 qt. and protein rest at 124, 128 and 132
saccrification rest on 161
and mash out on 170.
Everyone here told me to ditch the mash schedule.
What I did today and that seemed to work well:
mash with 4 quart at 126.
let it rest for 20 min
add hot water to get temp up to 156
Take out 1.5 Gallons of mash, heat and put back in.
Temp was at 162 then and let it sit for 60 min.
heat the rest of my 12 Quart to a boil add to the mash and let it sit for 10 more min.
I hit exactly the OG that was aimed at in the recipe.
I had to carry the stupid mash cooler out to the patio but that went well.
I am mashing in a coleman cooler.
First time I hit the temps and held them steady, Doubt that I would have held them steady outside.
Taking some of your mash (try to avoid getting too much grain) and boiling it in a separate pot then adding it back in can help get your temps back up to where they need to be.
If you're mashing in a cooler, you also might be dealing with temperature lost to the cooler itself. If your strike temperature is supposed to be 70C and you heat your water to 70C in a kettle/HLT and then dump it into a cold cooler, you're going to lose some heat as the cold cooler normalizes to the hot water, so by the time you're mashing in, your 70C strike water might already have dropped to 65C, so your intended 66C mash temperature is now 61C. There's a good chance you already know that, but I didn't see anything about it in your initial post so I thought I should point it out just in case.
If you're mashing in a cooler, you also might be dealing with temperature lost to the cooler itself. If your strike temperature is supposed to be 70C and you heat your water to 70C in a kettle/HLT and then dump it into a cold cooler, you're going to lose some heat as the cold cooler normalizes to the hot water, so by the time you're mashing in, your 70C strike water might already have dropped to 65C, so your intended 66C mash temperature is now 61C. There's a good chance you already know that, but I didn't see anything about it in your initial post so I thought I should point it out just in case.
I fill my tun with boiling water prior to my strike water to warm it. Still seem to manage to lose a large amount of heat. I try and mash pretty thin so adding more water makes it even thinner. I'm definitely going the HERMs route. May rig up a 2 tier system of sorts.
The link below details someone's design and build of a simple HERMS system. It could be a great place to start.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=468563
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=468563
joesmink
Well-Known Member
I live in Canada too, although Southern Ontario.
I've got a Coleman Extreme cooler and only brew till late fall but heres a couple simple ideas for ya.
Pre heat the cooler throw a gallon of boiling water in for 10-15 min before you do your strike. drain out pre heat water and start fresh with a pre warmed cooler, this will help.
Put a sleeping bag over and around it. Especially over the top as cooler lids don't seem to be well insulated to me.
Last but not least once you are mashed in leave that sucker closed and covered for the hour. I have a 12 inch dial thermometer poked through a tiny hole in the lid so i can peek under sleeping bag and see what the mash is resting at without opening the lid. I doubt you would lose 2 degrees if you tried these three suggestions.
Cheers
I've got a Coleman Extreme cooler and only brew till late fall but heres a couple simple ideas for ya.
Pre heat the cooler throw a gallon of boiling water in for 10-15 min before you do your strike. drain out pre heat water and start fresh with a pre warmed cooler, this will help.
Put a sleeping bag over and around it. Especially over the top as cooler lids don't seem to be well insulated to me.
Last but not least once you are mashed in leave that sucker closed and covered for the hour. I have a 12 inch dial thermometer poked through a tiny hole in the lid so i can peek under sleeping bag and see what the mash is resting at without opening the lid. I doubt you would lose 2 degrees if you tried these three suggestions.
Cheers
If you lose a degree each time you stir... Don't stir! Just let it sit.
If it's cold outside where you're at... Just bring your mash tun inside.
Why are you doing 90 minute mashes? If your problem is losing temp during mash, shorten your mash time. A 90 minute mash just wastes time anyhow...
Every recipe in the book clone brews that I have calls for a 90 minute mash. I stir because I find it increases my efficiency by 8% on average. I was getting 65% efficiency with no storing and now with stiring I'm around 73%. I'm just investing in a HERMs system. I like the idea of recirculating and want to build a single tier stand.
I also occasionally use that book, and I never do a 90 minute mash. That long of a mash just isn't needed... Particularly if one of your problems is losing temp in your mash tun.
If your efficiency is increased 8% by stirring, I suspect your crush is to blame. Stirring should not have that much of an effect if you've got a good crush. If your crush is poor, it takes longer for the hot water to penetrate and convert the starches, and stirring will better facilitate this. Do you mill your own grain?
Yeah I do. I mill it at about a credit card thickness. Maybe a little less (gaps a little smaller then the thickness of a credit card)
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with this method. Coolers are not meant for boiling temps, and this sudden temperature shock can rapidly expand the cooler lining, separating it from the insulation, or worse yet causing it to crack.
I find it easier and more effective to add your strike water 10-15 degrees over your strike temp and wait 10 minutes for the cooler to heat up, then open your cooler, stir and allow the water to cool to strike temp and dough in. A handful of ice cubes can be used to drop a degree or two if your temp is stubbornly high.
JMO
jwalk4
Well-Known Member
When it's cold out, but I just have to brew, I preheat the tun like Wilserbrewer mentioned: I over heat my strike water by 10 degrees and let it warm the cooler. I'll also bring the mash tun inside if it's a really cold day, then put it out on my table to tranfer to boil kettle when it's done.
I did this for a little while when I got started (didn't affect my 10g igloo at all). But then I figured out that you can tell Beersmith what type of mashtun you have, and the outside temperature, and it will increase the temperature of the strike water to compensate for the heat lost to the ton.
I'm here to tell you that it works, and saves an unnecessary step.
One more thought on strike water calculations. None of the calculators factor in the heat loss during those first 3-5 minutes while you're stirring the mash.
I use a 52qt cooler mash tun and I've found I need to have my strike water 4-6°F higher than calculated, depending on the mash volume, so after mashing in I end up right at the intended mash temp. I also cover the mash with aluminum foil, which helps in keeping the mash temp from dropping. I only open the lid once, around 15 minutes into the mash, to recheck the temp by piercing through the foil in a few locations. It's usually spot on +/- .5 degrees. Then close it quickly. I do this for peace of mind (and the record) in case a problem shows up later.
Each time you open and stir you lose heat, sometimes as much or more than you added with boiling water. The colder the temps, the drier the air, or lower the pressure the quicker you lose heat.
I use a 52qt cooler mash tun and I've found I need to have my strike water 4-6°F higher than calculated, depending on the mash volume, so after mashing in I end up right at the intended mash temp. I also cover the mash with aluminum foil, which helps in keeping the mash temp from dropping. I only open the lid once, around 15 minutes into the mash, to recheck the temp by piercing through the foil in a few locations. It's usually spot on +/- .5 degrees. Then close it quickly. I do this for peace of mind (and the record) in case a problem shows up later.
Each time you open and stir you lose heat, sometimes as much or more than you added with boiling water. The colder the temps, the drier the air, or lower the pressure the quicker you lose heat.
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