Finally fixing Oxidation woes?

[Falcon3]

Ok, so I've been AG brewing for over a year, with 6 batches to my credit. Like others on this site, I've been plagued with good tasting "green" beer out of the fermenter, that changes to a thick, syrupy taste after a few weeks. This meant that when the beer went into the bottles, it tasted great although flat, and when it aged for 2-3 weeks to carbonate, it tasted like crap. Needless to say, this has been a real downer to my budding brewing hobby. However, like with any true passion, I keep pouring time, energy, and above all, money into brewing. I can only attribute this off-taste to oxidation.

Well, I finally switched to kegging, and I think for this batch I did everything right. I believe I minimized any hot-size aeration that might occur during my lautering process. I hit my OG perfectly, I aerated the hell out the 1.067 wort, pitching ~200billion cells. The yeast when the wort was at 65 deg. I put it in my glass carboy with a blowoff hose. When it was done blowing off, I replaced the hose with an airlock.

After 3 weeks in primary, I will be cleaning my keg with Oxy, then sanitizing with StarSan. I will purge StarSan through my hoses with CO2 like it was beer. Then I will crack the lid of the carboy and put my siphon hose in. I plan on keeping 2-3PSI of CO2 flowing into the keg while I'm siphoning to maintain positive CO2 pressure to limit oxygen getting in. Then I'll purge the sealed keg and let it force carb for a week.

This process SHOULD mean that my beer has not touched oxygen since it started fermenting. Can anybody think of anything that I should have done/do to minimize any more oxidation? Much thanks ahead of time.

 

[Reelale]

I think you got it covered. I don't know if the constant C02 influx is needed however. I would think that purging the keg prior to racking would suffice since C02 will displace all of the 02 since it's heavier than 02.

 

[Yooper]

don't hit me (please!) but I'm not sure your problems are oxidation.

I mean, "syrupy" and "thick" don't sound like an oxidation issue. Rather, "sherry flavors" or "darkening" or "stale" flavors are oxidation related, in almost all cases.

Thick and syrupy sound like attenuation and/or recipe problems.

 

[Falcon3]

Yooper- yeah, that's why it's taken my 6 batches and hours and hours of forum reading and research to come up with the oxidation verdict. I think I'm having a hard time describing what I'm tasting. At first, I thought it was the infamous "extract twang." Then I started AG, and I screwed up a batch or two, and I thought it was that. But my last few batches, I've designed from the ground up with commercial clones as guides, making a few small changes as I see fit using BeerCalculus and hand-calculating as backup. I've been hitting my OG almost exactly, and my FG is always pretty close to what's forecasted.

ALso, I feel that if it were a recipe problem, the "green" beer wouldn't taste that well. I took an ESB out of the fermenter and it tasted perfect, but after 3 weeks carbing, I opened one and it had THAT TASTE! This has happened on every recipe I've made.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper- yeah, that's why it's taken my 6 batches and hours and hours of forum reading and research to come up with the oxidation verdict. I think I'm having a hard time describing what I'm tasting. At first, I thought it was the infamous "extract twang." Then I started AG, and I screwed up a batch or two, and I thought it was that. But my last few batches, I've designed from the ground up with commercial clones as guides, making a few small changes as I see fit using BeerCalculus and hand-calculating as backup. I've been hitting my OG almost exactly, and my FG is always pretty close to what's forecasted.

ALso, I feel that if it were a recipe problem, the "green" beer wouldn't taste that well. I took an ESB out of the fermenter and it tasted perfect, but after 3 weeks carbing, I opened one and it had THAT TASTE! This has happened on every recipe I've made.

Ok, that makes sense. But what about a few other variables. What's your water profile? Have you ever tried using straight distilled or reverse osmosis water? What about yeast strain, and fermentation temperatures?

It really sounds like your description (although rather vague!) doesn't describe oxidation at all.

 

[theredben]

I have to agree with Yooper, it does not sound like oxidation problems to me. Your method sounds great, and you should not be seeing oxidation issues that fast. The fact that you are seeing problems after only 2-3 weeks actually points to it not being an oxidation problem.

 

[Yooper]

I have to agree with Yooper, it does not sound like oxidation problems to me. Your method sounds great, and you should not be seeing oxidation issues that fast. The fact that you are seeing problems after only 2-3 weeks actually points to it not being an oxidation problem.

True, although sometimes it presents as a sort of astrigency on the sides of the tongue as early as 3 weeks, but that's not common. And oxidation always gets worse with age- from a hint of a sherry flavor at one month to wet cardboard at 6 months in severe cases. It also causes some darkening of the beer, but never changes to a thick or syrupy mouthfeel (unless it's undercarbed but not the issue here).

 

[Reelale]

I have to agree with Yooper, it does not sound like oxidation problems to me. Your method sounds great, and you should not be seeing oxidation issues that fast. The fact that you are seeing problems after only 2-3 weeks actually points to it not being an oxidation problem.

I will disagree. If the beer tastes good coming out of the fermenter, and the off flavor rears it's ugly head upon aging, it is either oxidation or infection. It's something in the post-fermentation process and oxidation is a very likely culprit.
Regardless, the OP has taken steps to correct the oxidation potential. If it's an infection, all bets are off.

 

[Falcon3]

I've been using distilled water and adding minerals to match Mosher's Ideal Pale Ale. Yeast is fresh WLP001. I've used starters for the last 2 batches to bring the pop. up to ~200bil. I ferment in the closet, but I wrap my down jacket around the fermenter so the temp stays relatively stable (yes I use a $200 down jacket to protect a $30 batch of beer I love this hobby so much.) I stick my digital thermometer probe next to the fermenter and it always stays around 68 degrees.

A better description of the smell- for the first few weeks after bottling/kegging, I can smell and taste fresh hops due to my dry hopping. However, when bottles are carbed/keg is 3 weeks old, the hop smell is almost gone and is replaced by a "heavy" scent- doesn't smell like traditional buttery/butterscotch/cardboard, but is not truly astringent either. It's just thicker and "heavier" and tends to overshadow the actual flavors/aromas of the beer.

My sanitation is excellent, everything is cleaned first, then put in a bucket of sanitizer until about 20 seconds before it is used. If it's going to be used again, it is rinsed, then back in the bucket. I try to do minimal screwing around with anything that could even possibly contaminate the beer/wort.

I live near Tacoma, WA if anyone in the area wants to have a free beer and help me decipher what this off-taste is!

 

[Yooper]

I have a thought. For the next batch, instead of matching Mosher's "ideal pale" water (no disrespect to Randy, of course), use only the minimum salts to get you to the minimum range of calcium and chloride (see the water chemistry primer in the "brew science" forum). Just the minimum, and no added sulfate or anything else. Make a fairly simple beer, like a mild or an English pale ale.

Ferment with dry yeast at a low temperature, and package. It'll still be a great beer, but with less room for error and not really that depending on water additions.

Reelale feels that it is oxidation, but I've tasted far too many oxidized beers as a competition judge, and never once have I had an oxidized beer with the symptoms you described. Not saying it's not possible, but it's unlikely at best.

Your method seems sound, so that only leaves a couple of possible issues. One is water, and the other is yeast health. By negating both of those factors, you can see if the problem is deeper (a "house flavor") or indeed an issue with technique (oxidation).

 

[Falcon3]

I'll give anything a try. Hopefully my next batch (a sort of winter amber) will turn out great. But after that, I'll give a Mild a shot. I was planning on it anyway with this recipe:

8lbs British 2-row
1lb Crystal 60L
@66% efficiency (my calculated average over 4 batches)- =OG of 1.039, 8 SRM

1oz Fuggles @60
.5 oz Golding, East Kent @15 mins
.5 oz Golding, East Kent @1 min
=23.1 IBU
BU:GU 59

Yeast: Munton's Premium Gold dry yeast

Distilled water with minimum calcium and chloride

 

[Yooper]

I'll give anything a try. Hopefully my next batch (a sort of winter amber) will turn out great. But after that, I'll give a Mild a shot. I was planning on it anyway with this recipe:

8lbs British 2-row
1lb Crystal 60L
@66% efficiency (my calculated average over 4 batches)- =OG of 1.039, 8 SRM

1oz Fuggles @60
.5 oz Golding, East Kent @15 mins
.5 oz Golding, East Kent @1 min
=23.1 IBU
BU:GU 59

Yeast: Munton's Premium Gold dry yeast

Distilled water with minimum calcium and chloride

The only change I'd make is swapping the Munton's yeast for S04. But otherwise, that looks good. Distilled water with a teaspoon of CaCl2 in the mash, and nothing else, and fermenting cool, and I think it'll be a tasty beer whether we've solved your issue or not!

I did Jamil Zainasheff's mild and think it was one of my finest beers.

 

[Reelale]

I have a thought. For the next batch, instead of matching Mosher's "ideal pale" water (no disrespect to Randy, of course), use only the minimum salts to get you to the minimum range of calcium and chloride (see the water chemistry primer in the "brew science" forum). Just the minimum, and no added sulfate or anything else. Make a fairly simple beer, like a mild or an English pale ale.

Ferment with dry yeast at a low temperature, and package. It'll still be a great beer, but with less room for error and not really that depending on water additions.

Reelale feels that it is oxidation, but I've tasted far too many oxidized beers as a competition judge, and never once have I had an oxidized beer with the symptoms you described. Not saying it's not possible, but it's unlikely at best.

Your method seems sound, so that only leaves a couple of possible issues. One is water, and the other is yeast health. By negating both of those factors, you can see if the problem is deeper (a "house flavor") or indeed an issue with technique (oxidation).

I didn't say that I feel it is oxidation. I simply said if it tastes good out of the fermenter, something is askew in the aging/condition process. Aside from infection, oxidation takes the lead. People perceive different off-flavors differently.

 

[Falcon3]

Well my latest batch is 4 weeks old, and I'm already getting hints of "that taste." I can almost guarantee that no oxygen touched the beer after aeration, so I'm leaning toward the infection/contamination reasoning.

I'm going to go through and totally clean/sanitize my gear, get rid of my bucket/brushes, boil EVERYTHING and try again with the above Bitter recipe.