Fight diacetyl w/out raising temp

[bradleypariah]

I'm new to lager, and my basement is a cool 55° F. Horror stories about cold fermentation are making me worry about diacetyl.

I have electric heated blankets and an electric heating pad, but no InkBird or anything like that, so I'm afraid of making my lager too hot if I just let it go all day.
I could bring the carboy to my bedroom, which is about 65° F, but there's too much sunlight. In the closet, you say? I don't have one, as weird as that is. Very old house.

I'm trying to understand if diacetyl rests are an absolute requirement for lager or not, taking into consideration I don't want a diacetyl off-flavor in my beer.

As of this Saturday, this beer will be three weeks old in the primary. I was planning on just dry hopping and kegging after about six weeks. No secondary, no temperature ramp.

1. What do you think about that?
   
2. Do people ramp up their temperature only to hasten the process of diacetyl consumption? -and/or-
   
3. Will the yeast ever re-absorb all of the diacetyl if given enough time?

 

[SanPancho]

temp ramp is to hasten diacetyl removal. speeds it up. will happen at lower temps as long as yeast are healthy and have been treated well. at cold temps, it could take weeks. thats why its "lager" beer.

if your temps are pretty constant, i'd use a strain with wide temp range like 34/70 or 189. if 55F is ambient your wort may be closer to 60 when yeast are working, so a strain that works a bit warm is a good idea. personally, i'd pitch low at like 48 so it free rises to ambient as yeast get going. as it gets close to finishing primary (say 50% to 75% attenuation) id bring it upstairs for a few days. if you're worried about sunlight, cover it with a sheet or a towel.

as for dry hopping, without the ability to crash i think you gonna have a problem. the hops will settle eventually on their own. but the flavor will fade if you wait that long. you really want to be able to crash it down towards the 40F, preferably 32-35F range.

 

[waldoar15]

65 is fine, as stated above, throw a blanket or something over it to keep the light out.

 

[JimRausch]

I do my lagers in my basement in the winter. I put them in a swamp cooler water bath bucket and monitor the temp of the water bath which once it equilibrates will equal the temp of the fermenting beer. Monitor the temp multiple times daily. If trending toward too warm, I add 1/2 gallon jugs of frozen ice bottles. If I need to raise the temp beyond environmental temps, I use an aquarium heater. I usually start it off at 48-50, raise to 53-55 after a day or two, then do a D-rest at 60-65 when visible signs of fermentation start to slow down. After 2 days of D-rest, I remove the heater and keep it at environmental temp (63-65) for a week or so before moving the water bath and fermenter out to my cold garage. Out there it stays 30-40 most of the winter. Starting to think about bottling my Marzen, Bock and Dopplebock now that March is here with temps in the 40s.
So long-winded answer demonstrating that you don't need fancy equipment to do lagers. Just need to pay attention to details.

 

[JimRausch]

And bradley, I just noted- we're forum buddies. Joined the same day back in 2012.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm trying to understand if diacetyl rests are an absolute requirement for lager or not

Nope. Diacetyl doesn't always happen. Smell and/or taste a sample, and find out. If none, then no worries.

As of this Saturday, this beer will be three weeks old in the primary. I was planning on just dry hopping and kegging after about six weeks. No secondary, no temperature ramp.

1. What do you think about that?
   
2. Do people ramp up their temperature only to hasten the process of diacetyl consumption? -and/or-
   
3. Will the yeast ever re-absorb all of the diacetyl if given enough time?

1. Should be fine, probably.
2. Yes.
3. Only if they're hungry. If already sleeping, then it won't happen.

 

[bradleypariah]

Thank you for the responses everyone. I'm now looking at possibly buying an ITC-1000 as a backup option. SWMBO won't blink at a $14 purchase, so perhaps I can use that electric blanket after all (if I end up needing it).
I should have also mentioned, in addition to not having closets on the heated level of the house, I have an English Bulldog that loves to sneeze on everything, and get into anything she can reach with her short little legs. I realize the carboy is enclosed, but she might knock it over or who knows what. She rarely gets into trash or the recyclables, but I'm trying to eliminate variables. Not worth risking 5 gallons of beer.

Only if they're hungry. If already sleeping, then it won't happen.

So, if the yeast are done, and final gravity is reached, if diacetyl is present, what is the recommended next step? Pitch more yeast and warm it up? -or is it too late? I haven't tasted the beer yet, and this is obviously all hypothetical, but I'm fairly certain I've reached FG after three weeks, so I'm just curious.

as for dry hopping, without the ability to crash i think you gonna have a problem. the hops will settle eventually on their own. but the flavor will fade if you wait that long. you really want to be able to crash it down towards the 40F, preferably 32-35F range.

Are you referring to clarity? I wasn't planning on cold-crashing. I don't care if it's cloudy. I might even just put marbles in a muslin sack with the hops right into the keg.

And bradley, I just noted- we're forum buddies. Joined the same day back in 2012.

Ha! Cool!

 

[dmtaylor]

So, if the yeast are done, and final gravity is reached, if diacetyl is present, what is the recommended next step? Pitch more yeast and warm it up? -or is it too late? I haven't tasted the beer yet, and this is obviously all hypothetical, but I'm fairly certain I've reached FG after three weeks, so I'm just curious.

I probably exaggerated slightly. I'd keep it warm for about 2-3 weeks and hope for the best. If diacetyl is very low or if the yeast is not highly flocculant, this could work well. If diacetyl is strong or if the yeast is extremely flocculant, then it won't work well.

 

[helibrewer]

You can test for diacetyl with a forced test. Take 2 samples of your beer. Do a sensory test on one to see if you detect any diacetyl. If you do, then the beer is too young. Cover the second sample with foil and heat it to 140-160F in a water bath. Remove the cover and smell/taste for diacetyl. If you taste or smell it that means there is still alpha-acetolactate present, a diacetyl pre-cursor. It also means your beer would benefit from a diacetyl rest for a few days (low 60's).

 

[bradleypariah]

I found the chart below online while researching the topic, and it seems to indicate that simply lagering (at lager temps) for roughly 28 days brings any threat of diacetyl as low as ramping.
I have two lagers going at the moment, one of the yeast strains is a Kolsh lager clone, but is actually an ale yeast.
The other lager is 34/70, which claims to be bottom fermenting. I have no idea if 34/70 is one of the hybrid strains everyone is talking about that can ferment at warmer temperatures.
Is ramping up a pure lager strain still recommended? I'm asking about 34/70 as well as strains that are noted for not being heat tolerant.

[EDIT] apparently I cannot embed a gif. Ignore the two broken links. This is the image: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/File:Lager_fermentation_charts.gif

 

[dmtaylor]

I found the chart below online while researching the topic, and it seems to indicate that simply lagering (at lager temps) for roughly 28 days brings any threat of diacetyl as low as ramping.
I have two lagers going at the moment, one of the yeast strains is a Kolsh lager clone, but is actually an ale yeast.
The other lager is 34/70, which claims to be bottom fermenting. I have no idea if 34/70 is one of the hybrid strains everyone is talking about that can ferment at warmer temperatures.
Is ramping up a pure lager strain still recommended? I'm asking about 34/70 as well as strains that are noted for not being heat tolerant.

My experience would agree that a long lagering period is just as good as a heatup.

That being said, raising temperature for any yeast including lager yeast near the end of fermentation should not hurt anything; it simply speeds up the process of diacetyl consumption with no ill effects, at least as far as most people can tell including myself. Side-by-side experiments would be necessary to confirm if you want to know the REAL answer. Personally... I think it's equally safe to ramp up, or not.

 

[jpakstis]

I agree with the "lagering = rest" in my limited experience. I made a lager a few years ago and I just let it sit in our garage during the winter (where its around 45-50) for maybe a month or so and then cold-crashed it in our fridge in the garage and it tasted just fine. I keep reminding myself to make a lager around December and keep being too lazy to do it. After all that's how they first were made, right? They would keep them in cellar temps all winter to be ready for spring time?

 

[JimRausch]

I do all my lagers in the winter, with an extended lagering out in my cold garage (it occasionally freezes out there, but the beer seems even better for the experience). I still do a 2-3 day D-rest where I increase the temp to 60-65 when visible signs of fermentation are subsiding. Why? Why Not. It doesn't hurt, and I'm extrememly sensitive to diacetyl. I can pick it out easily in commercial beers and my homebrew club's examples. It better NOT be in Mine! I just bottled my 'Decemberfest' Marzen that lagered for 9 weeks. God, the uncarbonated sample tastes great. I may have to change my 3rd submission to Nationals, if it carbs up well in the next 2 weeks.

 

[brewcat]

Nope. Diacetyl doesn't always happen. Smell and/or taste a sample, and find out. If none, then no worries.

Not true. @helibrewer mentioned the force test. Only way to know. Otherwise you might keg thinking everything is fine and end up with a lot of diacetyl.

To the OP:
Some ale yeasts produce a lot of diacetyl. Diacetyl rests are a part of brewing. Anyway, my last lager I started ramping temps a couple degrees a day around day 10. I kegged it to lager at day 20 using a force test to confirm. Ramping temps also keeps yeast in suspension long enough to clean up diacetyl.

 

[bradleypariah]

It's been in primary for 26 days now, so I'm wondering if the GIF I posted above can be trusted. I was planning on transferring to a secondary this weekend so I could harvest the yeast and brew another batch. I'll try the force test when I do. Thanks.

 

[bradleypariah]

I transferred yesterday, and I'm worried and confused. There's an off-flavor there I really don't like. It tastes absolutely nothing like butter or butterscotch.
It simply tastes like cheap bread yeast, or a Mickey's Malt Liquor that had been left out on the counter overnight.

I made nearly the exact same beer two weeks later (three weeks ago), but I used 34/70 instead of Crossmyloof Kolsh yeast. The 34/70 batch (still in primary) tastes AMAZING even though it's flat. Totally drinkable in its current state.

I decided to blast a sample of the Crossmyloof batch with a ton of CO2. I tasted it again, and I kid you not, the beer went from disgusting to flawless. Literally *ZERO* off-flavors anymore. Gone. How is this possible? After my confused first sip, I chugged the rest of the glass in bliss and disbelief. The extremely pronounced off-flavor completely vanished.

Dudes, what on earth am I experiencing??

1. Do you think diacetyl really tastes like artificial butter?
   
2. Can heavy carbonation hide diacetyl?
   
3. If low fermentation temps caused this, why does the 34/70 taste so much better, so much sooner? (also after having reached FG?)
   
4. Would you have just left the beer on the cake?