Fermenting-tastes great. After bottled-all tastes the same

[Nomofett]

I'm not sure exactly where to post this so sorry if this is the wrong spot.

I'm in my second year brewing and 40 batches in and I keep having the same problem. This only happens with Pales and IPA's. While they are fermenting I take little tasting samples of my beers and they generally taste good and pretty different from each other. But then I bottle them and when they are ready to drink they all end up tasting the same. The hops go away (this is a common problem so I'm not looking for help on this since it's tricky) and they all develop a taste that tastes like I put a lot too much crystal malt in them, even though I put less then 7%, if any at all. Maybe it's a coppery taste? But I don't know if it's metallic coppery, its the kind of coppery that a Lagunitas has I guess.

I use an Aluminium brew kettle and I have a PH meter and my wort ph is kept below 5.7 (sometimes it goes down to 4.9 cause I'm not so good at figuring water out yet). I filter my water as well. Sometimes I get gushers in my bottles so even though I feel like I do a good job with sanitation.

here's an example of my latest beer. It turned out slightly reddish somehow and tasted a little thick. In the fermenter it was delicious. a little fruity and light, in the bottle it was exactly like every IPA and Pale I've made except for one. Oh, I forgot to put the yeast on it, It was Wyeast 1010. Only about 5 liters (about a gallon) bottled.

Also, my Stouts and Porters seem to turn out fine. Any ideas? Please help, I'm geting tired of making the same beer over and over again on accident.

 

[brewcat]

You might post your grains from both recipes.

 

[Nomofett]

It's been about 15 that all end up the same, I just used that as an example to show why I think it's weird I'm getting a crystal flavor. Pretty much every IPA or Pale is the same for me

 

[ajr628]

Bottle gushers could be from the priming sugar not being mixed in well.

How do you clean your bottles?

 

[Rush]

Are you boiling your hops loose or in a bag? What type of bag?

Changes after bottling, especially since you are noticing the changes more on hoppy beers, could point to an oxidation issue. Are you noticing any color darkening after bottling day? Oxidation can kill hoppyness, which in turn makes the beer more sweet and makes grains like crystal stand out more.

 

[Nomofett]

I wash them out then soak them in either star san or a bleach vinegar solution for a few hours.

I usually don't boil the hops, I put a few in for FWH, and then the rest are whirlpool or dry. Sometimes I put some loose in for the last 5 or 10 minutes, but not many.

I am noticing color differences, they are definitely getting darker. Is that oxidation that does that? If it is then that's probably my problem because the hops are definitely dying. I've only had one beer I was happy with the hops staying around and that was a mosaic/citra one so maybe I got lucky with the oxygen then. In the fermenter they taste fine, so maybe oxygen is getting into the bottling part.

 

[Rush]

Oxidation can cause hops to fade extremely fast, as in days/weeks not months. Also oxidation can darken the beer a noticeable amount. Common points of oxidation are cold crashing in a carboy with an airlock in place instead of a solid stopper, bottling wand hose isn't sealed well enough so small air bubbles are being introduced into the stream, or pouring too fast from the wand into the bottle.

I'd recommend doing some reading from a Google search on reducing oxygenation in your beers (get ready to read a ton) and see if any of the suggestions can get you in the right direction. Your issues really sound like a classic case of oxidation.

Hopefully someone else can chime in and offer some further insight.

 

[helibrewer]

You say you usually don't boil your hops. Do you leave the FWH addition in for boil? These look like very small batch sizes, roughly 4-5lbs of grain.

What is your mash temp and for how long? pH 5.7 is too high, you want 5.3-5.5

Without boiling the hops your bittering charge might be too low, causing you to have a sweet, malty beer.

 

[Nomofett]

Thanks for the replies

Oxidation can cause hops to fade extremely fast, as in days/weeks not months. Also oxidation can darken the beer a noticeable amount. Common points of oxidation are cold crashing in a carboy with an airlock in place instead of a solid stopper, bottling wand hose isn't sealed well enough so small air bubbles are being introduced into the stream, or pouring too fast from the wand into the bottle.

I'm guessing oxidation then because of the darkening color and the dying hops. My wand definitely has some bubbles, I was reading last night that that shouldn't be a problem but it seems like it would be so that'll be the first thing I try to fix. As for pouring too fast from the wand to the bottle how does that cause oxidation? That's a new one to me. Thanks!

You say you usually don't boil your hops. Do you leave the FWH addition in for boil? These look like very small batch sizes, roughly 4-5lbs of grain.

What is your mash temp and for how long? pH 5.7 is too high, you want 5.3-5.5

Without boiling the hops your bittering charge might be too low, causing you to have a sweet, malty beer.

Yeah, sorry, I worded that weird. I meant I don't add any in the boil, but I do keep them in from the FWH. Usually I add about 30 IBU worth there.

My mash temp is usually around 65-70 (150-158) for an hour to an hour and a half. Yeah, my pH rarely is that high, and just at the very beginning. Actually I think it's often too low cause it's usually below 5.2.

I put in lots of hops in the whirlpool so I don't think it's that, here's another example recipe. Usually my IPA's are around 100 ibu on beersmith (this one was 70 something)

 

[Rush]

Thanks for the replies


As for pouring too fast from the wand to the bottle how does that cause oxidation? That's a new one to me. Thanks!

Add some clamps to the ends of your tubing to stop the bubbles and I bet you'll solve your issue. If you are seeing bubbles in your wand/tubing you are definitely introducing oxygen.

When you are using a bottling wand from a bottling bucket, the first few gallons of beer come out pretty fast from the pressure of the 5 gallons of beer pushing on the tubing. If you don't "regulate" the flow you could be unintentionally splashing the beer around too much in the bottom of the bottle and introducing oxygen.

I would keep the splashing part in the back of your mind and just make an observation next time you bottle and make sure you aren't splashing the beer around, but I really think fixing those bubbles will get you straight.

 

[Nomofett]

Thanks for the tips, bottled yesterday, clamped it all up, and tried a few other things and took some advice from this thread. Just wanted to say thanks again, it's great to have a place like this to go to with my issues

 

[gatorforty]

From reading your hop addition schedule, it doesn't seem like you are adding any "flavor" hops. It's not surprising to me that if you aren't using different grain bills, and you are using the same yeast, they would all taste the same. They may smell different based on all the late hops you are adding, but like you said you lose some or most of that when bottling. Take a look at the chart here and consider adding some hops around 15-20 mins left in the boil.

https://fhsteinbart.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/hop_utilization_chart.jpg

Ron

 

[Nomofett]

Thanks, I do use different grains and different yeast. Before bottling the taste different, it's after bottling that they all end up the same.

I used to add more hops at that phase and sometimes I do at about 10-5 minutes left, but from what I've been reading lately is that pretty much anything that's boiled just basically adds bitterness, some places now don't add any hops while its boiling. I read one if the most well regarded IPAs does that, I forgot which one, I think a NE one.

My most recent beer was good pre-bottle so my fingers are crossed that it doesn't mutate as well

 

[Rush]

Thanks, I do use different grains and different yeast. Before bottling the taste different, it's after bottling that they all end up the same.

I used to add more hops at that phase and sometimes I do at about 10-5 minutes left, but from what I've been reading lately is that pretty much anything that's boiled just basically adds bitterness, some places now don't add any hops while its boiling. I read one if the most well regarded IPAs does that, I forgot which one, I think a NE one.

My most recent beer was good pre-bottle so my fingers are crossed that it doesn't mutate as well

How'd this last batch turnout?

 

[Nomofett]

Sorry for the late reply. Good but it was a sour so that may have something to do with it. Did a deep cleaning, replaced some pieces, and made an IPA recently. Gonna bottle it this weekend