Fermentations taking too long.

[RPh_Guy]

Hey folks.

I've brewed a small number of all-grain batches with various kits, all using dry yeast. I ferment in my basement where the temp may fluctuate between around 62F and 68F, usually around 64-66.

I did 4 ciders with Premier Cuvee, they all took 4-6 weeks to stop bubbling (FG all approx 1.000)

Beer also takes around 4-8 weeks with what I'd assume is US-05 (though not sure since it is repackaged and doesn't say)

Blonde, 57 days in primary, FG 1.014, apparent attenuation 73%
Wheat ale, 40 days in primary, FG 1.016, apparent attenuation 70%
Kettle sour wheat ale, 34 days in primary, FG 1.018, apparent attenuation 67%
IPA, 30 days in primary, FG 1.022, apparent attenuation 58%. (I bottled this before it stopped bubbling .)

I currently have a bourbon vanilla porter going with US-05 (this one is for sure)... OG 1.069. Racked to secondary after 7 days and added 2oz of bourbon (and vanilla). After another 7 days the SG 1.022, still way above target (I'd think the bourbon should lower the gravity). The kit had a target FG of 1.009.

So, seriously, what's going on? I see other threads saying they finish fermenting after like 5-7 days. Why do mine take weeks and weeks??

Every fermentation starts off with a strong krausen (appearing between 2-12 hours) and continues extremely vigorous fermentation for a couple days. The yeast drop out after 2-6 weeks but airlock activity usually continues. Does it make sense to start checking gravity when there is still airlock activity, like 2-3 bubbles per minute? It's obvious from my results that attenuation continues to climb the longer I leave it fermenting.
I don't add anything to the wort, just filtered tap water, grain, hops, and yeast.
My mash isn't anything fancy but I am generally close to the target mash temp (single infusion).
When bottle conditioning I get quite a bit of sediment. I'm not sure how much is normal. Carbonating doesn't seem like it takes too long, around 1-3 weeks but at a higher temperature like 73F.

There is an odd flavor in my beers and I'm not sure if leaving the beer in the primary too long is part of the reason, otherwise I wouldn't care. It may be that the ingredients have been sitting around too long or my particular filtered tap water. Maybe that's just how this yeast tastes to me.

My hydrometer reads tap water at 1.002, so that's another issue.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Airlock activity isn't the best indicator of fermentation. During fermentation, CO2 is produced, some of which dissolves in the beer. After fermentation finishes, some CO2 can escape from the beer so that the airlock keeps bubbling. If you can, try to raise the temperature of the beer by a few degrees after 5 to 7 days of active fermentation (or when you are 80 to 90% of the way to final gravity) to help the yeast finish off. Brew belts from China are pretty cheap!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

There is an odd flavor in my beers

What sort of odd flavour?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Brew belts look perfect for my situation but it says they aren't great for glass carboys, which all of mine are. I suppose it's possible that temperature swings are causing my yeast to drop out too soon, slowing fermentation.

Your suggestion makes total sense; I will try it for sure next time. I am well past the 5-7 day mark with my porter but I will move it to a warmer ambient and hope that helps. Maybe I will try another gravity reading at 21 days?

Thank you

 

[Gnomebrewer]

If it is US-05 that you have, it normally finishes (gravity wise) after about 6 days for a normal gravity beer, but tastes quite awful (it needs at least another week to clean up). I've use it a lot of times, and found that it almost stops at about 61 degrees and leaves a lot of acetaldehyde (green apple) - and is slow to start again afterwards. Others say it gives peachy flavours at low temps (I've never tasted these, but wonder if they are the same as the green apple flavours that I get). The worst thing about acetaldehyde for me is that I get S@#$faced off two beers that have it, and end up with a hangover that is like severe seasickness. Could your ferment temps be dropping that low?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's possible the temp drops to around 61. I bet you are right. I need to figure out how to keep it warm enough.

You think I should pitch more yeast with my current batch?

What sort of odd flavour?

I don't think it's a fruity taste. Perhaps just like stale bread, also a little bit metallic. Everyone else says it tastes fine (and not metallic or stale) but I am very sensitive to stale tastes.
These kits probably don't have the most fresh ingredients, so it could just be that. And some of the kits I had for several months.

I've about had enough of this and will start getting fresh ingredients from my LHBS.

Thanks again

 

[RM-MN]

Hey folks.

I've brewed a small number of all-grain batches with various kits, all using dry yeast. I ferment in my basement where the temp may fluctuate between around 62F and 68F, usually around 64-66.

I did 4 ciders with Premier Cuvee, they all took 4-6 weeks to stop bubbling (FG all approx 1.000)

Beer also takes around 4-8 weeks with what I'd assume is US-05 (though not sure since it is repackaged and doesn't say)

Blonde, 57 days in primary, FG 1.014, apparent attenuation 73%
Wheat ale, 40 days in primary, FG 1.016, apparent attenuation 70%
Kettle sour wheat ale, 34 days in primary, FG 1.018, apparent attenuation 67%
IPA, 30 days in primary, FG 1.022, apparent attenuation 58%. (I bottled this before it stopped bubbling .)

I currently have a bourbon vanilla porter going with US-05 (this one is for sure)... OG 1.069. Racked to secondary after 7 days and added 2oz of bourbon (and vanilla). After another 7 days the SG 1.022, still way above target (I'd think the bourbon should lower the gravity). The kit had a target FG of 1.009.

So, seriously, what's going on? I see other threads saying they finish fermenting after like 5-7 days. Why do mine take weeks and weeks??

Every fermentation starts off with a strong krausen (appearing between 2-12 hours) and continues extremely vigorous fermentation for a couple days. The yeast drop out after 2-6 weeks but airlock activity usually continues. Does it make sense to start checking gravity when there is still airlock activity, like 2-3 bubbles per minute? It's obvious from my results that attenuation continues to climb the longer I leave it fermenting.
I don't add anything to the wort, just filtered tap water, grain, hops, and yeast.
My mash isn't anything fancy but I am generally close to the target mash temp (single infusion).
When bottle conditioning I get quite a bit of sediment. I'm not sure how much is normal. Carbonating doesn't seem like it takes too long, around 1-3 weeks but at a higher temperature like 73F.

There is an odd flavor in my beers and I'm not sure if leaving the beer in the primary too long is part of the reason, otherwise I wouldn't care. It may be that the ingredients have been sitting around too long or my particular filtered tap water. Maybe that's just how this yeast tastes to me.

My hydrometer reads tap water at 1.002, so that's another issue.

Your fermentation is normal at 2 to 3 days. By then the yeast have consumed all the easy sugars and will have settled down. By day 5 to day 7 they will be into cleanup phase and can use higher temperatures and since the early part of the fermentation is where the off flavors usually originate the beer won't be hurt by the warming. By keeping the beer cool you are retarding this phase but even then they should have it completed by day 10. If not, you should raise the temp into the low 70's and probably should do so by day 7.

Airlock activity is only the exchange of gasses. By day 5 your yeast will be done producing CO2 but there will be a lot of it dissolved into the beer and it will offgas for weeks. Don't use airlock activity to judge fermentation.

When I bottle at day 10 I get little sediment. If I wait until day 28 it is hard to see in clear bottles.

 

[RPh_Guy]

More useful info, thank you! I knew I had to be doing something wrong.

How do you know when to start checking gravity? I've been afraid to introduce too much oxygen by checking.

 

[DocScott]

It depends on if you are trying to go quickly or not. If you are in a rush, check after 7 days and again a couple days later. If the readings are the same, it's at terminal gravity. If you aren't in a rush, I'd give it 2-3 weeks.

My advice to achieve a better fermentation would be temp control while fermenting. (For s05, start around 64 and ramp up to 70 after 3 days). Oxygenate before pitching. Pitch a big enough yeast starter / rehydrated dry yeast. Yeast nutrient can help too.

The stale bread/metallic thing sounds like oxidation and maybe older ingredients to me. I also think some extracts leave a metallic flavor, but I think you said you're doing all grain.

Last piece is if you're hoping for clearer beer, cold crashing and a little gelatin go a long way!

 

[Morrey]

FWIW, temp control beyond fluctuating ambient may be a goal in your thoughts moving forward...at least it was a priority to me. Inkbirds, fermwraps even used freezers are within the reach of most.

I use a monitoring device called a Tilt which is a hydrometer that floats in the wort in your fermenter. I can monitor the SG w/o opening the lid. This device gives me peace of mind to know where I am in the ferm cycle. At least a few things to think about moving forward.

 

[flars]

There are two areas to look at to troubleshoot the extra long fermentations and the off flavor. First is to be able to control and manipulate the temperature of the fermenting wort. I use a swamp cooler to control the temperature as the yeast is producing heat during the first few days of active fermentation. The swamp cooler water bath also can be used to raise the temperature with an aquarium heater controlled with a STC-1000.

Could the off flavor be coming from your brewing water. Is your filter still effective or ready for replacement? Is the flow rate through the filter too high reducing the effectiveness of the filter?

With US-05 I ferment most ales at 66° to 68°F. I'll use the water bath to slowly increase the temperature of the beer to 70° or sometimes and high as 72°F after 5 to 7 days to finish.

 

[jmcquesten]

Blonde, 57 days in primary, FG 1.014, apparent attenuation 73%
Wheat ale, 40 days in primary, FG 1.016, apparent attenuation 70%
Kettle sour wheat ale, 34 days in primary, FG 1.018, apparent attenuation 67%
IPA, 30 days in primary, FG 1.022, apparent attenuation 58%.

So, seriously, what's going on? I see other threads saying they finish fermenting after like 5-7 days. Why do mine take weeks and weeks??

Every fermentation starts off with a strong krausen (appearing between 2-12 hours) and continues extremely vigorous fermentation for a couple days. The yeast drop out after 2-6 weeks but airlock activity usually continues.

57 days in primary?! That seems long for just about any beer to be in primary. The beers you listed generally can be ready to drink in a month (maybe not the sour).

 

[mongoose33]

It has been said by many that fermentation temperature control is THE one place new brewers can make great strides in the quality of their beer.

They're right.

If you're serious about this beer thing, you need some way to monitor the actual temperature of the wort (don't just go by apparent ambient temps). A heater belt like this or this, kept in contact w/ the fermenter using a bungee cord or two, will work wonders for you, if you have it controlled by something like an Inkbird temperature controller.

I have all three of the things I've linked to above, they work great. And you can use the temperature probe to monitor the temp of your wort/beer. Just use a piece of approx. 1" thick foam to hold the probe against the side of the fermenter using bungee cords.

I've attached a pic below showing how I use the heating mat and probe in my refrigerator/ferm chamber.

****************

Since you're doing all-grain, there are some things you should be considering. One is the source of your water. Another is the mash temp. A third is the crush of the grain (which I presume comes to you already crushed).

Where does your water come from? Is it chlorinated? If so, how are you addressing the chlorine? What about minerals and hardness in the water? Is your water softened?

****************

You say the temp in your basement is between 64 and 68. Yeast are exothermic, meaning they produce heat during fermentation, and that can add as much as 5-10 degrees to the temperature of the wort. You may think the temp is 68, and ambient temp may be that, but the wort/beer is 73 to 78--which is too warm.

Do you have a fermometer (stick-on thermometer) on the side of your carboy? That's really the only way to tell what the temp is, or drop a probe down into the beer.

That said, taking 6 weeks to finish is an incredibly long time. That almost suggests a much slower, colder fermentation. Your basement floor (concrete?) is likely a lot cooler than ambient; you may find several degrees difference between head-height and on the floor.

***************

S-05 is slower to finish than most other yeasts for me, but the last two times I used it fermentation was done in a week. I use a ferm chamber that keeps the fermenting wort at 64 degrees, and it is held within a degree of that number.

My regimen is to wait until the krausen falls, and then I raise the temp from 64 to 71 for a couple days to allow the yeast to clean up after themselves. I then bring it back down to 64 and let it sit for a few more days. Typically I don't keg until 2 weeks have gone by, and 3-4 weeks is more typical.

I use an S-shaped airlock; when the fluid levels have equalized I know I no longer have any pressure in the fermenter that is pushing out bubbles, and it's done. Typically this is the case in two weeks.

****************

You don't say the source of your kits. You've brewed enough that you should be able to make a specific recipe specifying the ingredients--including the type of yeast that you're using. It would drive me nuts using a kit in which some or all of the ingredients were essentially a secret.

If it's a kit bought from a LHBS, and the yeast has been repackaged, how well? How long has it been sitting on a shelf before you bought it?

There are tons of great recipes here on HBT that will produce excellent beer if done correctly--and you'll know exactly what's in them.

 

[mongoose33]

One other thing.

You don't say what size batches you're doing....nor what size your fermenter carboy is. If they're small batches (1-2 gallons) but the fermenter is a 6- or 7-gallon carboy, there's a tremendous amount of headspace in there.

Atmospheric pressure changes can result in bubbling that simply is the higher pressure in the carboy releasing to the lower pressure ambient.

This would be accentuated with a ton of headspace.

So--how large the batches, how large the fermenter?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thank you everyone! Sounds like I'll be looking for some equipment to help with temperature control.

To answer some questions:
My filter is probably nearing the end, but the water is quite drinkable, unlike straight from the tap. It is chlorinated [hard, I assume] city water. From my understanding filtering removes the chlorine.
I have not paid to get a profile, although I know it's an option. I'd think the water composition would change over the course of a year, so I'm not sure if it's worth it. My tap water is sourced from up to 4 locations nearby! In the future I may think about building my own profile using RO water plus additives.

My mash setup is also less than ideal and needs an upgrade. I control temp the old-fashioned way with an alcohol thermometer, stove-top gas burner, and plenty of stirring.

You are correct, I had no control over the crush specification for the kits. However my LHBS crushes on site. What do I need to know? I figured I'd just go by whatever the store owner recommends.

I am doing 1-gallon batches in a 1-gal carboy, so the wort temperature is probably closer to the ambient than with a larger batch. I've definitely been thinking about getting stick-on thermometers. They wear out over time though, right?
Not a huge amount of headspace and also with my long fermentations I could see bubbles in the wort so I know it wasn't from pressure changes.

Most have been fermenting under the sink in the basement, in a wooden cabinet. Probably not losing much heat to conduction and I leave the thermometer in there on the bottom of the cabinet to determine the ambient.

My first kits were from Brooklyn Brew Shop with secret/repackaged grain bill and yeast and repackaged hops (yes, frustrating but they were gifts). I also picked up another couple kits from Box Brew Kits; these provide the grain bill and yeast/hops in the original package so at least I know what's in there. No way to know how old they were. They were a good starting point but I agree it is time to move on.

These few batches have been a great learning experience. Brewing a few SMaSH beers seems like a good idea to learn about the various malts and hops, but right now it sounds like my main problem is that I need equipment to provide better temperature control. I also want to increase to 5-gallon batches. I will need help selecting gear but I should probably post a new thread for that.

Thanks for all the help! I appreciate your time.

 

[mongoose33]

I'll put my standard suggestion for equipment out there for you:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/premium-fermonster-homebrew-starter-kit.html

It's got everything you need except a source of heat. When I started brewing I went w/ some Northern Brewer equipment. It worked fine, but in retrospect I spent a lot more than I had to.

This kit includes a plastic fermonster fermenter; you can see what's happening, it's light in weight, the large opening makes it easy to clean. I have the Northern Brewer bigmouth bubblers, but if I'd had to do it over again, fermonster is what I'd choose. They're cheaper. They also have a spigot. My first BMB didn't have a spigot; I bought one with the spigot for my second fermenter. I ended up buying a spigot and retrofitting the first one, and now have three more--all with spigots.

This kit includes a wort chiller, hydrometer (you don't need one, but you will at some point wish you had a spare ), long spoon, some Star-San, cleaner, it even includes an extract kit. If you went this way, you might see if MB would exchange for an all-grain kit.

You wouldn't have a mash tun, so a cooler converted to such would also be a cost. You could also consider brew-in-a-bag, which if you did that you'd probably want a 10-gallon kettle instead of the 8.5 in this kit. I had Northern Brewer's 8-gallon megapot, but I upgraded to a 10-gallon Spike kettle so I could do BIAB.

Anyway, depending on what you have this kit may or may not make sense, but for a beginning setup I haven't seen better.

 

[brewcat]

Thank you everyone! Sounds like I'll be looking for some equipment to help with temperature control.

To answer some questions:
My filter is probably nearing the end, but the water is quite drinkable, unlike straight from the tap. It is chlorinated [hard, I assume] city water. From my understanding filtering removes the chlorine.
I have not paid to get a profile, although I know it's an option. I'd think the water composition would change over the course of a year, so I'm not sure if it's worth it. My tap water is sourced from up to 4 locations nearby! In the future I may think about building my own profile using RO water plus additives.

My mash setup is also less than ideal and needs an upgrade. I control temp the old-fashioned way with an alcohol thermometer, stove-top gas burner, and plenty of stirring.

You are correct, I had no control over the crush specification for the kits. However my LHBS crushes on site. What do I need to know? I figured I'd just go by whatever the store owner recommends.

I am doing 1-gallon batches in a 1-gal carboy, so the wort temperature is probably closer to the ambient than with a larger batch. I've definitely been thinking about getting stick-on thermometers. They wear out over time though, right?
Not a huge amount of headspace and also with my long fermentations I could see bubbles in the wort so I know it wasn't from pressure changes.

Most have been fermenting under the sink in the basement, in a wooden cabinet. Probably not losing much heat to conduction and I leave the thermometer in there on the bottom of the cabinet to determine the ambient.

My first kits were from Brooklyn Brew Shop with secret/repackaged grain bill and yeast and repackaged hops (yes, frustrating but they were gifts). I also picked up another couple kits from Box Brew Kits; these provide the grain bill and yeast/hops in the original package so at least I know what's in there. No way to know how old they were. They were a good starting point but I agree it is time to move on.

These few batches have been a great learning experience. Brewing a few SMaSH beers seems like a good idea to learn about the various malts and hops, but right now it sounds like my main problem is that I need equipment to provide better temperature control. I also want to increase to 5-gallon batches. I will need help selecting gear but I should probably post a new thread for that.

Thanks for all the help! I appreciate your time.

Depends on the filter.

Should only need to stir at the beginning of the mash. If you are mashing in a pot you can then hold the temp pretty well wrapping it in a towel or sleeping bag.

Only if you submerge them in water. Otherwise, not likely.

My guess is your fermentations have been done in less than two weeks. Your ambient temps looks good to have good fermentation temp. You need to check your gravity earlier. The off flavor is probably a yeasty flavor from sitting in the primary so long.

 

[mongoose33]

city water. From my understanding filtering removes the chlorine.
I have not paid to get a profile, although I know it's an option. I'd think the water composition would change over the course of a year, so I'm not sure if it's worth it. My tap water is sourced from up to 4 locations nearby! In the future I may think about building my own profile using RO water plus additives.

Filtering WILL NOT remove chlorine by itself; you need an activated charcoal filter to do that, and if it's really old, it may not work at all.

When you're getting your new brew equipment, pick up some Campden tablets. They're used to neutralize the chlorine, and they are cheap.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I thought basically all household filters are made with activated charcoal?

 

[mongoose33]

I thought basically all household filters are made with activated charcoal?

I don't know; here's an example of one that isn't:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OH0QUWG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

We have a tendency to assume things because they make sense, but we don't really know if they're true or not. A buddy of mine is brewing, and he used his tap water without knowing if it was softened water or not. I use tap water for part of my strike water, but i have a Ward's report showing what's in it, and even more, when we built the house we installed a line to the kitchen sink that bypassed the water softener. So I know it's not softened.

He doesn't know if his is or isn't, and the pipes are covered up. He just assumed it. Guess what? His last beer has a funny taste to it, and I'm convinced it's the water--either he didn't add the proper additions, or his water is poor. Or both. He claimed it tasted salty which, interestingly, would be a possible consequence.

The point is, if I haven't belabored it enough, is that just assuming something is OK is a recipe for problems, and the more assumptions you make, the more likely one of them isn't true.

***********

One interpretation of Occam's Razor is that the solution requiring the fewest assumptions is the most likely to be correct. I've long used a reversed version of Occam's Razor which says "the more assumptions you make, the more likely one of them will be wrong." So I don't like to assume anything. Too many times I've assumed something only to find out I made a mistake because of that assumption.

***********

I teach, among other things, the conditions necessary to demonstrate causality. Correlation, time order, nonspuriousness. The last means that in any causal statement, that it can only be true if all the alternative explanations for the outcome are eliminated.

Brewers, I think, are typically very good at this approach. Something's not right, what could it be? Then they systematically eliminate all the alternative--competing--explanations for what's wrong until they isolate it.

You can see me doing this by asking whether your water is chlorinated, and whether your filter removes it. It's a possible alternative explanation for flavor issues.

***********

This is why, btw, I argue that new brewers shouldn't do all-grain at the start. The more things that can go wrong, the more likely one of them will go wrong. And then the question becomes "what is it?" Simpler is better, at least at the outset.

***********

Your filter might have activated charcoal in it. Or not. Or maybe it's too old to work properly. Maybe it's likely that it works. I don't know.

All I do know is that assumptions often end up biting us in the rear areas of our bodies. Maybe your water is fine. Maybe it's not. But you don't know until you know.

 

[triethylborane]

I use a monitoring device called a Tilt which is a hydrometer that floats in the wort in your fermenter. I can monitor the SG w/o opening the lid. This device gives me peace of mind to know where I am in the ferm cycle. At least a few things to think about moving forward.

2nd that. Great device and makes monitoring easy. Can put data into a spreadsheet and can run multiple monitoring devices at the same time.

 

[Morrey]

2nd that. Great device and makes monitoring easy. Can put data into a spreadsheet and can run multiple monitoring devices at the same time.

Exactly, I have two Tilts going simultaneously now. Not saying Tilt is the answer to everything, nor do I feel it is laboratory accurate. All I am looking for with it is watching gravity as it drops, then getting consistent readings for a few days. Tilt may be off a point or two, but I am looking for trends and not pinpoint accuracy.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I started a 1-gallon Amber ale a couple days ago. US-05 is fermenting happily away at a constant 64-65F.
It's in a water bath this time for better control of temperature fluctuations -- nothing fancy but now I am much more sure there are no variations.

How do I know when to start warming it up? The krausen is gone and I am about to switch the blow-off tube to an airlock. Do you just say 5 days and voila?

 

[Brownalemikie]

I started a 1-gallon Amber ale a couple days ago. US-05 is fermenting happily away at a constant 64-65F.
It's in a water bath this time for better control of temperature fluctuations -- nothing fancy but now I am much more sure there are no variations.

How do I know when to start warming it up? The krausen is gone and I am about to switch the blow-off tube to an airlock. Do you just say 5 days and voila?

For me, the krausen usually drops after 3 days. That's when I allow the ferm temp to rise to 70 from 65. I leave it at 70-72 for another 10 days then bottle. Results are always good.