First BIAB=Failure

[mbach72]

So this past weekend I attempted my first BIAB. It was a 2 gallon hefe(or similar to it) using 2 lbs of Pilsner and 2lbs of wheat. I mashed at 153 for an hour, raised the temp to 170 for 10 minutes, sparged and boiled for an hour. I dunk sparged my grains and squeezed the heck out of them.

After cooling my wort, I went to take my OG reading and promptly dropped my only hydrometer, destroying it. I covered my sample, but there was nowhere to get another hydrometer until today. I just took a reading from the sample and it read 1.040! I think that put my efficiency around 52% and I'll be looking at an ABV in the upper 3's.

I also put the 2 gallons in a 5 gallon fermenter because I used the Wyeast Weinstephaner yeast, which apparently requires way more headspace than my 2 gallon fermenter would give it. I made a starter and pitched 1/2 of it(about 100 billion cells). I saved the other half for later use. I think its working, but I dont want to take the top off the bucket and release the protective CO2 layer. I did pop the airlock out for a second and I think I saw some krausen, but not what I was expecting from that yeast. Havent seen a single bubble from the airlock after 36 hrs, but it might be escaping around the lid. I guess all that isnt really important when the beer has so little potential to begin with.

Is there any hope for this batch? I was shooting for 1.057 OG, how did I miss it by that much? I wasnt expecting perfect results on my first BIAB but this was really disheartening. I used red wheat as it was the only wheat available at the time, would that have anything to do with it?

Would the sample sitting for 2.5 days before I took my reading have any effect on the hydrometer reading? I dont see how it could but there's obviously plenty I dont know.

 

[IL1kebeer]

If your sample sat at room temp and your sanitation wasn't impeccable then a wild yeast or bacteria could have been consuming the sugars leaving the sample with a lower gravity. Do you sanitize your hydrometer testing tube? Either way 2 days might not be long enough for a small infection to rip through that many sugars. Did you temperature correct your hydro reading?

 

[ICWiener]

Would the sample sitting for 2.5 days before I took my reading have any effect on the hydrometer reading?

Shouldn't matter. As long as your sample is close to 60F, you should still get an accurate reading.

Two things that I can think of to share:

1) When I was a BIAB brewer I never got much more than 60% efficiency. I know people around here have done better than that...but I never could seem to. Plan for 60% in the future, because it can't hurt. Buy extra grain. 52% is low, but that segues into my next point...

2) I always found that I got lousy conversion with wheat, even at 60 minutes. I mash all of my wheat beers for 90 minutes now. Seems to help quite a bit.

Those two things working against you...I can see a low OG happening. Don't sweat it and let the beer finish out. It'll be a great summer session ale. 1.040 isn't bad. If it finishes at 1.010 you'll be in the mid 4% range.

 

[kramerica]

I just did my first one also. I inputed my info and was shown a projected OG 1.061 and i registered 1.065. I used a couple calculators online and put my info it and was shown a 60-62% effiency.

 

[kramerica]

How could I beat the projected of and come out with higher numbers?

 

[reverendj1]

@mbach72 - Did you double-crush your grains? Red wheat and white wheat have about the same conversion, so there shouldn't be any trouble there. I agree more info on the storage of your sample may be required. It is possible that some wild yeast took hold of it and is throwing off your numbers. Try taking a sample of your actual wort today and see what it is at.

What I like to do is to place a pizza pan over my kettle, put the bag on there, and squeeze it with my kettle lid before and after sparging. This seems to help with efficiency. Also, don't just dunk the grain bag in the sparge water and call it good. Put the grain bag in a bucket or whatever, and pour the water over it. Then tea bag it a little by lifting the bag and dropping it gently several times. I generally get 72-75% efficiency, with my lowest being 67%, and that was on a pretty big beer.

Also, you shouldn't need to mash out (raise temp to 170) if you are doing a dunk (batch) sparge. From my understanding, that is only really needed if you are fly sparging, which can take a while. The reason for the mash out is to stop the conversion of starches, but since you are bringing it to a boil almost immediately anyway, this step is unnecessary. Not related at all to your issue, but I thought I would bring it up.

@kramerica - I'm not sure what you are saying, or if your calculations are correct. If you were targeting 1.061 and got 1.065, you overshot your efficiency. What was the efficiency you put in whatever calculator to get your target OG? You may want to make a new thread, as your issue is likely different (assuming you have one).

 

[reverendj1]

Another thing to point out is to make sure that you all are pouring your grain in slowly, and stirring while doing it to prevent doughballs. Grain that doesn't get wet won't convert.

 

[IslandLizard]

This^ and I think your crush is not optimized for BIAB. Most BIAB processes can yield 80-90% because of a finer crush than is possible with a mash tun.

Take a look at your grains, I bet they are very course. Ask your LHBS to mill twice or get your own mill.

Sorry about the early demise of your hydrometer. Make sure to add your story to this thread, you're not alone:
Official broken hydrometer count

 

[1MadScientist]

I agree, you should have gotten a 1.055, with a 90 mins. mash and that 10 mins. mash out at 170F, producing 2.5 gallons at the end of boil.

I don't understand why you had to sparge? Was your pot not big enough?

What bag did you use?

 

[BlackGoat]

I'm about 5 batches of BIAB in and my first 4 were all around 50-65% efficiency. This most recent batch came out over 85%. Couple adjustments that got me there was that I milled the grain almost to flour - VERY fine crush. Second, I didn't dunk sparge but instead drilled a ton of small holes into the bottom of a bucket, then put the grain bag in there after the mash. Slowly pour sparge water (heated or not) over the grain bag, then pushed down on the grain bag with a stock pot lid. Huge improvement in my efficiency, thought I'd pass that along.

Edit - also my lowest efficiency came from a wit that was nearly 50% wheat, so the earlier poster's comment about lower efficiency from wheat is consistent with my experience.

 

[mbach72]

Thanks for all the replies, it appears that there are several things I need to do to improve my BIAB.

More than one of you mentioned the poor conversion of wheat. Next time I use a significant amount of wheat, I will definitely mash for 90 minutes.

I also think reverand was on to something, I need to pay a little more attention to makig sure all the grain gets wet. Thanks for also pointing out that I didnt really need to mash out, that is some time I could save in the future.

As far as my crush, maybe that was another problem. This was my first time crushing my own grains. I was using a cheap Corona style mill, but it worked fine for 4 lbs of grain. I ground it a little finer than I what I was used to seeing with pre-crushed grains. I had read about double crushing for BIAB, but i was a little unsure of just how fine I dared go. Anyone care to share a pic of a good crush for BIAB?

1Mad- I dunk sparged after seeing some recommendations elsewhere. I dunked the grains in a seperate pot with about 1/2 gallon of 170 degree water, then put the bag in a colander over the pot and squeezed every last bit I could out. I then added it to the
pot. I had read that was a good way to get as much of the sugars off of the grains as possible. Did I misunderstand and end up way off base? I was using a paint straining bag.

I might try again this week with something simple that doesnt involve wheat and see if I can dial this in a little better. I'm thinking maybe a smash of some kind. I would certainly welcome any other help and suggestions.

 

[porterguy]

I ALWAYS do a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil with BIAB (read that on one of the Aussie BIAB sites).

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for all the replies, it appears that there are several things I need to do to improve my BIAB.

More than one of you mentioned the poor conversion of wheat. Next time I use a significant amount of wheat, I will definitely mash for 90 minutes.

I also think reverand was on to something, I need to pay a little more attention to makig sure all the grain gets wet. Thanks for also pointing out that I didnt really need to mash out, that is some time I could save in the future.

As far as my crush, maybe that was another problem. This was my first time crushing my own grains. I was using a cheap Corona style mill, but it worked fine for 4 lbs of grain. I ground it a little finer than I what I was used to seeing with pre-crushed grains. I had read about double crushing for BIAB, but i was a little unsure of just how fine I dared go. Anyone care to share a pic of a good crush for BIAB?

1Mad- I dunk sparged after seeing some recommendations elsewhere. I dunked the grains in a seperate pot with about 1/2 gallon of 170 degree water, then put the bag in a colander over the pot and squeezed every last bit I could out. I then added it to the
pot. I had read that was a good way to get as much of the sugars off of the grains as possible. Did I misunderstand and end up way off base? I was using a paint straining bag.

I might try again this week with something simple that doesnt involve wheat and see if I can dial this in a little better. I'm thinking maybe a smash of some kind. I would certainly welcome any other help and suggestions.

I made a Belgian wit using unmalted wheat and it converted just fine with BIAB. Most of the people reporting problems with converting wheat aren't milling it fine enough.

That brings up the second point. Set your mill fine. You are doing this BIAB. Your bag will be the filter so you don't have to have intact husks to form a filter. My mill is set so tight that the plates are rubbing against each other when there is no grain being ground. You want the particles as small as you can make them with your Corona mill.

When I make a batch I don't have quite a big enough pot to try for a "no sparge" batch so I pull the bag out when the mash is over, set it in a colander that is in a bowl and squeeze out the wort and return it to the pot. Then I pour (gasp!) cold water into the bag of grains and stir it a bit before squeezing out the extra wort. You don't *need* to use 170 degree water. That makes it a little easier.

90 minute mash? Not here. That long mash compensates for not having the grains milled fine enough. My mash lasts 30 minutes. I think I could shorten that but then where would I find time to comment on Home Brew Talk? No 90 minute boil either. Your hops may need a 60 minute boil to isomerize the hop oils for bittering but anything more is just boiling off water into steam. If you start with too much water, that is a way to compensate but it isn't needed.

 

[reverendj1]

I made a Belgian wit using unmalted wheat and it converted just fine with BIAB. Most of the people reporting problems with converting wheat aren't milling it fine enough.

That brings up the second point. Set your mill fine. You are doing this BIAB. Your bag will be the filter so you don't have to have intact husks to form a filter. My mill is set so tight that the plates are rubbing against each other when there is no grain being ground. You want the particles as small as you can make them with your Corona mill.

When I make a batch I don't have quite a big enough pot to try for a "no sparge" batch so I pull the bag out when the mash is over, set it in a colander that is in a bowl and squeeze out the wort and return it to the pot. Then I pour (gasp!) cold water into the bag of grains and stir it a bit before squeezing out the extra wort. You don't *need* to use 170 degree water. That makes it a little easier.

90 minute mash? Not here. That long mash compensates for not having the grains milled fine enough. My mash lasts 30 minutes. I think I could shorten that but then where would I find time to comment on Home Brew Talk? No 90 minute boil either. Your hops may need a 60 minute boil to isomerize the hop oils for bittering but anything more is just boiling off water into steam. If you start with too much water, that is a way to compensate but it isn't needed.

I just wanted to say I too recently switched to not preheating my sparge water and have no noticable difference in efficiency.

 

[ICWiener]

I'l say that RM-MN is probably correct. When I was brewing BIAB, I had no control over my grain crush. I made adjustments where I could, which included 90 min. mashes for wheat beers. If you are crushing your own grain, yeah man, mill the everloving sh*t out of it. That will only help both conversion times and efficiency %.

 

[kh54s10]

2 points: 1) I would not call it a failure. YOU MADE BEER. Maybe not to what was intended but enjoy it, make some adjustments to your procedure and go again.
2) Opening the bucket will not allow the co2 layer to escape. Co2 is heavier than air, so unless you direct a fan into the bucket and blow the co2 out, it will stay there.

 

[mbach72]

Alright, looks like I'm going to mill that grain as fine as I can while still being able to keep it in the bag. Now I'm getting anxious to try this again so I can get a batch that makes me feel a little better.

 

[eluterio]

@mbach72 - Did you double-crush your grains? Red wheat and white wheat have about the same conversion, so there shouldn't be any trouble there. I agree more info on the storage of your sample may be required. It is possible that some wild yeast took hold of it and is throwing off your numbers. Try taking a sample of your actual wort today and see what it is at.

What I like to do is to place a pizza pan over my kettle, put the bag on there, and squeeze it with my kettle lid before and after sparging. This seems to help with efficiency. Also, don't just dunk the grain bag in the sparge water and call it good. Put the grain bag in a bucket or whatever, and pour the water over it. Then tea bag it a little by lifting the bag and dropping it gently several times. I generally get 72-75% efficiency, with my lowest being 67%, and that was on a pretty big beer.

Also, you shouldn't need to mash out (raise temp to 170) if you are doing a dunk (batch) sparge. From my understanding, that is only really needed if you are fly sparging, which can take a while. The reason for the mash out is to stop the conversion of starches, but since you are bringing it to a boil almost immediately anyway, this step is unnecessary. Not related at all to your issue, but I thought I would bring it up.

@kramerica - I'm not sure what you are saying, or if your calculations are correct. If you were targeting 1.061 and got 1.065, you overshot your efficiency. What was the efficiency you put in whatever calculator to get your target OG? You may want to make a new thread, as your issue is likely different (assuming you have one).

Pizza pan love the idea! I did 3 BIAB and did the rinse at 170. Placed grains in bucket held it high enough to not allow the bag to touch the bottom and rinsed until I reached my boiling level. I used 2 paint strainers spit my grains in half about 5.5 lbs per bag, this made it easier for me to handle by myself. I finally reached efficiency during the third batch doing it this way. I was getting used to my new equipment and didnt no what my boil off was or turb loss.

 

[1MadScientist]

mbach72, I guess you are good on your process. Still don't know the size of your pot and why you had to pull the bag and sparge in another pot.

A lot of factors, but if you started with all your water at the beginning, then a raising to mash out temp, pull bag and squeeze, would have accomplished the same thing. That's called full volume BIAB.

Also, if that paint bag is too small, NorthernBrewer has one they are marketing for their BIAB 'system'. 24" x 24'.

Cheers.

 

[eluterio]

mbach72, I guess you are good on your process. Still don't know the size of your pot and why you had to pull the bag and sparge in another pot.

A lot of factors, but if you started with all your water at the beginning, then a raising to mash out temp, pull bag and squeeze, would have accomplished the same thing. That's called full volume BIAB.

Also, if that paint bag is too small, NorthernBrewer has one they are marketing for their BIAB 'system'. 24" x 24'.

Cheers.

Paint bag isnt too small the bigger bags are way to heavy why pull your back out when the weigh too much.

 

[flips]

I ALWAYS do a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil with BIAB (read that on one of the Aussie BIAB sites).

Why would you need a 90 minute mash or boil? I don't understand how mash or boil time would have to increase because of the biab process? I understand the new for a 90/90 for low mash temp or wheat, and DMS reduction, but not due to the process.

2 points: 1) I would not call it a failure. YOU MADE BEER. Maybe not to what was intended but enjoy it, make some adjustments to your procedure and go again.
2) Opening the bucket will not allow the co2 layer to escape. Co2 is heavier than air, so unless you direct a fan into the bucket and blow the co2 out, it will stay there.

+1 on this! A failure would be spilling the entire thing on the floor, or a fungus taking it over. So the abv is a bit low then you can drink another pint... I understand that there are other affects from the low OG, but I think there are a lot more important factors in the finished beer. I think people get obsessed with SG numbers because that's about the only thing you can measure and write down with a lot of specificity everything else on the finished product is the opinion of the beholder, or beerholder if you will.

Don't give up on BIAB.

If you think you can save some time getting rid of the dunk sparge, think of the time you have saved by not doing an entire 3 tier system sparge. Tried a finer crush next couple of times, get your brewhouse efficency defined, and then add a bit more base mault to hit your numbers if you don't after the finer crush.

flips

 

[hops2it]

I'm not even sure anything is wrong here. A heffe with a 2.5 day head start? Doesn't surprise me that you got a lower reading by the time you got a new hydrometer. Heffes can move fast even though it may have not been visually evident in your case due to the excess headspace. The FG should give you an idea of where you were actually at with your OG. I'd chill and let this play out. May be a non issue.

 

[reverendj1]

I'm not even sure anything is wrong here. A heffe with a 2.5 day head start? Doesn't surprise me that you got a lower reading by the time you got a new hydrometer. Heffes can move fast even though it may have not been visually evident in your case due to the excess headspace. The FG should give you an idea of where you were actually at with your OG. I'd chill and let this play out. May be a non issue.

The OP mentioned that they took a separate sample before pitching yeast, and took the reading off that two days later.

 

[mbach72]

Well, I think with the tips you guys have given me, I can look forward to some sigificant improvements on my future BIAB batches. Heck, this batch wont end up great, but maybe it will be drinkable. If not, it's just a few bucks and some lessons learned, nothing to sweat over.

 

[hops2it]

The OP mentioned that they took a separate sample before pitching yeast, and took the reading off that two days later.

Ah so I see. I read that post twice and still missed that fun fact.

 

[pvtschultz]

I'll just echo what others have posted with my 30+ BiaB batches of experience. I used to consistantly get 60-65% conversion efficiency using a single pass through the LHBS mill and full volume mashing w/o mash out. I was happy with that because it was rather repeatable. I then puchased a Corona style mill and a 50 lbs bag of 2-row to cut down on brewing expenses. The first batch was just as dismal. I then cranked down the mill to make flour. That boosted efficiency to about 73%, mashing out gets me to ~77% consistantly. Any grain that I buy at the LHBS gets triple crushed (less hand cranking for me at home). Doing a dunk sparge gets me to about 80% and I only do that when performing multi infusing mashes in a second container.