Feeling defeated

[IslandLizard]

And before I forget, where does everyone suggest getting their DME? I'm sure I could go to the LHBS, and I truly would like to continue to support them, but I'm also really desperate to make something I can be proud of, so if anyone has a great suggestion to offer, I'll happily jump on the idea.

Unlike LME, DME is very stable. The largest packages I've ever seen on a shelf at a LHBS are 3# sealed bags, running around $4.00 a pound. They can last 10 years like that. Even when previously opened and resealed well.

I buy DME at a (semi-local) group grain buy for around $2.30/lb. Since our buys have become far less frequent, I stock up on grain and DME, and quite well at that.
We split 50# sacks of Briess Pilsen Light DME among those interested. I only use it for yeast starters, so 20-30# lasts a few years, in a sealed, screw lid bucket.

 

[MaxStout]

I don't know if it's been mentioned upthread already, but another factor to dial in better beer is the fermentation temperature. Check the temp range for whatever yeast you are using and try to keep the fermenter within that range. Especially during the first several days of fermentation. Fermentation generates heat, and the internal temp may be several degrees above the surrounding room temp. Get a $3 adhesive "fermometer" and stick it on the side of the fermenter. If the temps start creeping up you can keep the fermenter cool with water and ice packs. Look up threads for "swamp coolers" on this site.

 

[Knightshade]

<——I’ve got a sparkly new label, not solely due to this thread but it certainly contributed. Been tinkering on idea of upgrading past annual membership for a couple months now anyways.

Willingness to help on this forum has been aptly demonstrated here.

Ive only been brewing about a year or so, but the amount of info I’ve gathered via this forum has been pretty damn extensive. Not positive how long into my lifetime I intend to brew, but a resource like this place needs to stick around.

 

[Rodent]

lots of excellent advice here in this thread

OP - nice avatar

 

[Bobby_M]

@Bobby_M I did not realize that LME had such a short shelf life. That's a bit frustrating. I have another container of LME that I picked up at the same time for a Honey Brown Ale that I was hoping to make soon, but if the life is that short, then it's likely already too old and will taste weird. Also, why pitch multiple packs of yeast? I had mentioned this to the guy at the LHBS and he said that it would be pointless and I only need one. I'll happily pitch two if it will make my stuff taste better though.

If they are supplying you with a pack of dry yeast with the kits, one is enough. The recipe you posted along with this post has a White Labs liquid yeast pack. I'm sure the local guy means well (as would others on this site) to suggest one pack is enough but it's much more complicated than that. The date on the pack matters A LOT but even if it were packaged yesterday, one pack is not enough.


Here's a pitch rate calculator for a 1.057 OG with a 3 WEEK old pack, using BrewFather (but you can find free ones online as well). You can see it recommends 3 packs.

Here's the same screenshot with only one thing changed... I put the package date to 2 months old. This is still pretty conservative because small homebrew shops will still sell you a pack that is FIVE MONTHS OLD.... The calculator recommends 5 packs that are 2 months old. A 5mos old pack is down to 5% viability and you really wouldn't want to use it unless you build a healthy starter first.

There are going to be people who claim to make good beer with single pack pitches of even old packs. Good for them. They either don't know a bad beer when they taste it or they got very lucky once. My good friends, peers, and fellow homebrew club members who are all slaying the various BJCP comps in our area won't be bragging about how old of a yeast pack they got away with. Most of us make a 1-2 liter starter on a stir plate to get away with buying a single pack of yeast. If I'm really lazy for a brew, I'll grab two of the absolutely freshest packs out of the fridge because I own the homebrew store.


Ok... but WHY? There are a lot of thing that get affected by pitch rate (how many viable cells you pitch in a certain volume of wort at a certain gravity). Here's a quick paste right from White Labs:

HOW DOES PITCH RATE AFFECT MY BEER? Pitch rates make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds. A low pitch rate can lead to: Excess levels of diacetyl Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation Increase in ester formation Increase in volatile sulfur compounds High terminal gravities Stuck fermentations Increased risk of infection

The infection risk comes from the longer lag time before the colony gets going. The longer wort sits before strong active fermentation, the more likely bacteria will outcompete it.

Diacetyl is certainly one big flaw but I find more bad beer has Acetaldehyde in it which tastes like raw pumpkin flesh and smells like green apples. Both of these compounds are normal in beer but the batches that end with a very healthy yeast colony consume it quickly. When you underpitch your yeast, it is utterly exhausted and drops out without cleaning up after itself. I even encourage the clean up process by warming the fermenter a couple degrees towards the end.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

When brewing with malt extract, if the water tastes good to begin with, the beer should taste good.

The above is one of the biggest fallacies in home brewing

But but but... it says that at howtobrew.com (the 1999 edition) as well as the 3rd edition (2006).

It's not until 4th edition (2017) that "distilled, RO, or low mineral spring water" (emphasis mine) is recommended.

Which makes sense - as the professional wort makers are taking the water out and leaving minerals behind. So putting back just the water (or the water with a small amount of minerals) would seem to be the best approach.

 

[Wrinkle_Fever]

@Rodent I agree, the amount of information that I have gotten from this thread has absolutely floored me. In the last week alone I have spent so much time crawling thru different threads on here and I have learned so much, it's outrageous. And that is a fantastic avatar pic as well. With so many wrinkles, you nearly have yourself a new best friend!

@Bobby_M These screenshots that you've posted have really given me a lot to consider. But everything makes sense. I don't know what the mfg date was for the yeast used in this beer, but I took a look at the other packet of yeast I bought that day, to go with the brown ale I want to do. As of today, it's about 3 months old, and according to the calculator, down to 38% viability. I did not know that this was a thing. I have since then watched quite a few videos on how to do the yeast starters and read up on the SNS method. Would you suggest doing a stir plate or the SNS for my starter? Also, if one pack of dry yeast is enough for a 5gallon batch, why does it seem like so many people are still using liquid yeast and making starters? One last question on this topic...The calc at brewers friend says I need to make a 2L starter, if I use one pack of liquid yeast for my next brew (OG 1.053). So I would make this starter the day before brew day? And then after I've cooled my wort and put it in my fermenter, what's next? Do I pitch a separate packet of yeast into the wort, and then wait until I'm at high krausen to pitch my starter in? That last part has really confused me and I haven't found an answer for yet.

 

[Bobby_M]

@Bobby_M These screenshots that you've posted have really given me a lot to consider. But everything makes sense. I don't know what the mfg date was for the yeast used in this beer, but I took a look at the other packet of yeast I bought that day, to go with the brown ale I want to do. As of today, it's about 3 months old, and according to the calculator, down to 38% viability. I did not know that this was a thing. I have since then watched quite a few videos on how to do the yeast starters and read up on the SNS method. Would you suggest doing a stir plate or the SNS for my starter? Also, if one pack of dry yeast is enough for a 5gallon batch, why does it seem like so many people are still using liquid yeast and making starters? One last question on this topic...The calc at brewers friend says I need to make a 2L starter, if I use one pack of liquid yeast for my next brew (OG 1.053). So I would make this starter the day before brew day? And then after I've cooled my wort and put it in my fermenter, what's next? Do I pitch a separate packet of yeast into the wort, and then wait until I'm at high krausen to pitch my starter in? That last part has really confused me and I haven't found an answer for yet.

Dry yeast remains viable for very long periods of time and one pack usually has the cell count to handle 5 gallons of 1.050 OG or lower. If you brew something that is known for its yeast character like Belgian or English, generally you want a little more "in process" yeast growth so I'd pitch one pack. If you want a neutral clean ferment (or the gravity is above say 1.060), two packs would be better.

People have gotten into a groove using liquid yeasts because until very recently there wasn't a one for one relationship between dry and liquid as far as strain availability is concerned. The other issue is that while you'll find crossovers, such as US-05 being a general equivalent to WLP-001 or Wyeast 1056, if you split a batch and fermented with all three of those yeasts you'd get 3 different beers. I've had success with dry yeast plenty of times but I tend to stick to liquids to stay sharp on yeast handling processes and it gives me the greatest strain versatility at all times. This is really a nit picky area of brewing though and sticking to dry yeasts to rule out other process flaws is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.


I personally use a stir plate, let it run for about 36 hours and then crash it in the fridge overnight to be able to decant off most of the spent beer. That stuff tastes nasty and I don't really want it in the final beer if I can avoid it. I take the flask out of the fridge carefully and pour off most of the clear beer. Then leave it out to warm while I'm brewing. You want it to be pretty close to your chilled wort temp to avoid thermal shock.

If the starter size is smaller (around 1 liter for 5 gallons) and/or the beer is strong flavored by design, I'll pitch the full starter save time. In that case it's usually about 24 hours on the stirplate so I'd make it the day before.

To be honest, usually the decision is based on how well I planned or how impromptu the brew session is. If I plan ahead, I make the starter 3 days early and do the crash/decant thing. If I plan ahead a little, I'll pitch the whole thing because I don't have time to cold crash, etc... If I don't plan at all, I'll pitch multiple packs of yeast and just spend that extra money to save time.

 

[Dancy]

It's not until 4th edition (2017) that "distilled, RO, or low mineral spring water" (emphasis mine) is recommended.

Big “Duh” on my part. The OP is using extract and my comment pertained to AG. ☺

[Fixed quoted text -Mod]

 

[IslandLizard]

Big “Duh” on my part. The OP is using extract and my comment pertained to AG. ☺

[Fixed quoted text -Mod]

Actually, using water with low mineral content pertains to extract brewing just as much, or even more.

In my early brewing days I was misled by Palmer's statement (in the 3rd Ed.) too. Luckily, we have very soft water in this area (low mineral content). That's probably why my extract and partial mash brews turned out quite OK. It wasn't until I went all grain (in 2013) when I started to read up on water, and it was here on HBT.

 

[Knightshade]

I've seen a couple comments in here about finding a local brewer w/more experience to either brew with, watch, or have them watch op. Couple Questions/Comments in regards to that.

Have you (op) watched or attended any of the live/recorded brewing sessions some of the brew tubers out there put on? It is a time commitment, but you might pick up some tips.

Covid not withstanding, have you looked into if any of your local craft beer or LHBS do interactive brewing sessions, classes, etc.? Feels like the craft brewery one is a little less common, but one of my mine (that sadly closed just this past month) did a monthly "Brew With Ben". He did a different beer every month and you had the opportunity to watch, ask questions and interact with the brewing process on their small batch system.

Finally..and just throwing this out there. I'm...less than 25 batches in and still figuring things out myself. However, I have some friends that are a couple of states over who have gotten into brewing as well. We probably started around the same time, I guess I just drink more? Hence..I've brewed more and definitely made alot more mistakes. Long story short, we've held Zoom sessions on occasion during any one of our brew days so we can BS, ask each other questions, do sanity checks, etc. Maybe host your own and see who would be willing to attend, or maybe somebody in here might be willing to host one?

 

[RufusBrewer]

If they are supplying you with a pack of dry yeast with the kits, one is enough. The recipe you posted along with this post has a White Labs liquid yeast pack. I'm sure the local guy means well (as would others on this site) to suggest one pack is enough but it's much more complicated than that. The date on the pack matters A LOT but even if it were packaged yesterday, one pack is not enough.

Here's a pitch rate calculator for a 1.057 OG with a 3 WEEK old pack, using BrewFather (but you can find free ones online as well). You can see it recommends 3 packs.

He's the same screenshot with only one thing changed... I put the package date to 2 months old. This is still pretty conservative because small homebrew shops will still sell you a pack that is FIVE MONTHS OLD.... The calculator recommends 5 packs that are 2 months old. A 5mos old pack is down to 5% viability and you really wouldn't want to use it unless you build a healthy starter first.

There are going to be people who claim to make good beer with single pack pitches of even old packs. Good for them. They either don't know a bad beer when they taste it or they got very lucky once. My good friends, peers, and fellow homebrew club members who are all slaying the various BJCP comps in our area won't be bragging about how old of a yeast pack they got away with. Most of us make a 1-2 liter starter on a stir plate to get away with buying a single pack of yeast. If I'm really lazy for a brew, I'll grab two of the absolutely freshest packs out of the fridge because I own the homebrew store.

Ok... but WHY? There are a lot of thing that get affected by pitch rate (how many viable cells you pitch in a certain volume of wort at a certain gravity). Here's a quick paste right from White Labs:

Yeast pitch rate calculations. Seems like there are a few different rule of thumbs, formulas, on line calculators. They seem come to the same conclusion, no matter how yeast you are pitching, you need to pitch more.

I recall some people making 5 liter starters because some web site calculated as such. There was a time home brewers calling Wyeast and White Labs frauds and criminals because it contradicted Mr. Malty.

It is my observation that home brewers tend to be absolutist about things. They hear what is optimum or best practice, and if you do not follow the concept, you beer will suffer greatly, be ruined it or taste like bath water.

Now we have the Shaken, Not Stirred (AKA 007) starter method. It does not seem to get much attention here on HBT. Maybe I do not frequent the correct subforum to see it.

From my perspective, the S,NS starter makes the most intuitive logic to me. Sort of accounts for everything that I understand about yeast.

Bobbie, do you have any experience with using Shajrn , Not Stirred starters.

 

[Bobby_M]

There was a time home brewers calling Wyeast and White Labs frauds and criminals because it contradicted Mr. Malty...

It is my observation that home brewers tend to be absolutist about things. They hear what is optimum or best practice, and if you do not follow the concept, you beer will suffer greatly, be ruined it or taste like bath water....

Now we have the Shaken, Not Stirred (AKA 007) starter method. It does not seem to get much attention here on HBT. Maybe I do not frequent the correct subforum to see it.....

I'm not a yeast expert but I've attended several talks given by Omega, Wyeast and White Labs techs and you will never hear that a single aging pack of yeast is good enough. It's kind of an unspoken dichotomy. At a product packaging and marketing level, a single pack of yeast is enough. Yeah, until you ask biologists working at the yeast labs specifically how much yeast you need. Well, it depends on gravity. It depends on pack age. It depends on intent. They likely find it impossible to reconcile the science with the product marketing and competitor sales trends.

In my 16 years of brewing, I've experimented with yeast pitch rates, cut corners, gotten lazy, made some absolute crap beers. I know that I'm making very good beers now, as are my friends, and we're all copying commercial pitch rates roughly approximated by the calculators. Of all the absolute retched beers I consume as a homebrew shop owner, there is a very high correlation with "good enough" aka, low pitch rates. It's not concrete causation.

The high krausen pitch starter is definitely something I do when I have a very healthy young pack of yeast but I have to try it more often.

 

[Upstate12866]

Definitely keep with it!

One more perspective. I started brewing because I really wanted to make my favorite beer. After several years, I've never been able to make that, or really anything like a commercial brew. I just digitized my notebook and I saw I'm 50+ brews into the hobby. Still trying to stay simple rather than buy a 500 dollar setup.

I found other versions of success. Like I can brew a lot faster than before (thanks to help from this forum), and I have learned enough about ingredients to save money by avoiding kits. I have also learned about a lot of styles and the history of brewing and the like. Easier to give a weird brownish brew to a friend when I have a story to share about it.

My good beers are about 7/10, and always just a bit odd, but I found a way to make it enjoyable enough. I'm OK with the restrictions I face based on my setup. Slowly my brews do get better, but I've never risen to commercial quality.

I will add another voice to the notion that all grain made a big difference for me in taste, color, and more. To learn a lot i recommend some very simple single malt and single hop brews that you can pin down and then branch out with variations. I find it very hard to make good porters, stouts, and complicated beers.

My local store sells fresh(ish) grain from 1.50/lb. With just a sock and a baggie of hops I can make an easy drinker at around 4 bucks a case. Smaller half-sized recipes make things go much faster too. This is all to say that ease of brewing (from learning more with time) and avoiding expensive explorations (kits) makes my 7/10 pale ales and lagers much easier to, um, swallow.

Also, I have more respect than ever for macro Miller, Coors and the like. It is hard as hell to brew clean tasting beers that keep well and come out the same each time. I encourage you to chase a couple sources of problems as you go, but these are like advanced TLC for your process and not "the answer." Eg, learn about oxidation and think about how you can minimize it, but expect just a (worthwhile) step in the right direction.

Try all grain! GL!

 

[GoodTruble]

I'm certain I'm delusional, but by Batch 5, I preferred my homebrew to more than half the commercial beers put there.

I've read on this site about a phenomenon wherein homebrewers' subconsciously adjust their expectations/tastes to prefer homebrew tastes and start to dislike commercial beer tastes. That switch flipped very quickly for me, and commercial beers now taste odd.

 

[Knightshade]

@Wrinkle_Fever Have you brewed that brown ale yet? In an effort to reduce complexity/variables until you get comfortable, have you considered just using dry yeast?

I'm less than 15 batches in and just took the dive on liquid yeast myself with a NEIPA that is currently in fermenter right now (also my first go w/that style). Just part of my progression anyways...went from pitching dry yeast from the bag, then took to consistently re-hydrating the dry yeast, and felt like I had enough of the other stuff under control to "tackle" liquid yeast. (although it seems like I still make plenty of mistakes during brew day...mostly because I've started doing recipes that require multiple hop drops, so more to keep track of...again, increasing complexity as time goes on)

 

[Brews and Blues]

I'm certain I'm delusional, but by Batch 5, I preferred my homebrew to more than half the commercial beers put there.

I've read on this site about a phenomenon wherein homebrewers' subconsciously adjust their expectations/tastes to prefer homebrew tastes and start to dislike commercial beer tastes. That switch flipped very quickly for me, and commercial beers now taste odd.

I feel like I am there too. Maybe its just the excitement of pouring my own brew, but right now I enjoy my own beer way more than commercial beers including some really good microbrews that used to be my go-to. Is it freshness? Or is it just because its mine? Not sure... but right now a lot of beer I am getting in store is tasting bland to me.

 

[eric19312]

I'd second and perhaps expand on @Knightshade 's advice. Use dry yeast until you are making pretty good beer consistently. Probably pick one and only one dry yeast and use it in everything you make for now. US-05 would be my choice but there are other good choices to consider. pay attention to things like pitch rates and fermentation temperatures. Stay away from lagers for now.

Maybe brew one gallon batches. This looks like James Spencer's hop sampler recipe.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/793838/hop-sampler
It is a pound of extra light DME, water to reach 0.75 gallons, heat to boil and turn off, add a few grams of hops, chill in a sink and pitch 2 grams US-05. This will make a six pack of decent beer if your ingredients are fresh (the hops and yeast mainly here since the extract is dry), your water is low mineral and not chlorinated, your sanitation practice is decent and you adequately control fermentation temperature. Get the process down on something like this and then start adding complexity. I'd give James another plug...go back and listen to podcasts in his archive.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

 

[Wrinkle_Fever]

Hey everyone,
Thanks again for all the support and all the knowledge bombs! I really can't express all my gratitude here. I'm looking through this entire thread and I've learned so much from everyone in such a short time.

@Knightshade Sadly, no. I haven't had a chance to brew that one yet. Work finally started to pick up a bit, so I haven't had a solid chance to do it. Also since we're on the topic...I bought the extract for that kit back in March of this year. I know one of the major topics during this thread was expiration dates and extract having a short shelf life. Think I should get new extract for this? It's been sitting in the cupboard, so it hasn't been exposed to any light (not sure if that matters). What you mentioned about the dry yeast is something that I had been thinking about over the last few days. I did a lot of reading on liquid yeasts and how to do starters, but also feel like if it's an acceptable strain for that beer style, then I might just use the dry yeast until I get consistent good beers. So the brown ale calls for WLP001 California Ale Yeast, which I have. Is there a dry yeast strain that you or someone else would suggest for that beer? I'd feel much more comfortable at this point just buying the dry. It seems no matter how often I risk it, I never get the biscuit. Oh, and I have watched quite a few brew sessions that I've came across on youtube. I haven't actually been to any classes myself yet. My LHBS was putting them on Pre-Covid, but has since stopped. Perhaps now that regulations are starting to lift they'll start back up. If they do, I'll be there in a heartbeat.

@GoodTruble I truly hope this is the case. I'll happily buy commercial beer to support the brewery's that I enjoy, but I also want to be able to drink my own and be just as happy. Although the first DFH 120 minute I had actually brought tears to my eyes. That'll be a tough one to top!

@Upstate12866 You're entire post had a ton of meaning to me. Thanks for taking the time to share your words. As I mentioned to Knightshade, I have a honey brown that I want to make, purely because I already have the steeping grains and the extract for it. As soon as I get that one wrapped up and in one of the fermenters, I plan to order the stuff to start doing BIAB. I don't have nearly enough room to be doing a full-blown AG setup, but from everything I've read, BIAB is just as good. I spent a few hours this morning researching SMaSH brews. A lot of people really seem to enjoy the Maris Otter & EKG brews, so that's going to be what I do next once I finish out the stuff I have on hand. I'm really excited about this. I hadn't considered doing those prior to your post, but now I'm looking forward to getting a good observation of the different flavors that everything can offer, without the complexity of it all being mixed up.

@eric19312 You know, me fumbling thru my Spotify and coming across Basic Brewing podcast was actually what really got me hooked. James Spencer does a phenomenal show and I always enjoy listening to him. I haven't caught completely up to where he is now with it, I think I'm still a few years behind on listening. But either way, I do enjoy it quite a lot. I have not done his hop sampler beers, but I'll add it to my list. Sounds like another fantastic way to really find out what/how everything tastes and how much I enjoy them.

@Bobby_M Thanks for answering my questions and concerns about the yeasts. It'll be just dry yeasts for me, at least for a little while. And two packs if my OG is over 1.060.

 

[Upstate12866]

You are the man for sticking with it!

One thing I've noticed as a frequent observer of this community... Everybody has their own opinion and lots of people would probably like you to view things their way. Sometimes people even argue (gently). But by god if you mention frustration or poor results we all align ourselves in a very wholesome way: "You're doing it wrong, I can't believe you aren't kegging, and you should really do all-grain...but don't STOP, are you crazy!?"

I have never heard anyone suggest that poor results are a reason to stop, and I imagine that's important for this and many other hobbies. Also why this community is so nice.

 

[eric19312]

US-05 is a good dry substitute for WLP001. You can get deep in the weeds about how they are actually genetically different but both are basically the Chico strain that Sierra Nevada built their brewery on. Once you are brewing consistently good beer with US-05 consider doing side by side and decide for yourself which one you prefer. But don't bother trying to test something fairly subtle until you have a reliable process.

 

[marc1]

@Upstate12866 You're entire post had a ton of meaning to me. Thanks for taking the time to share your words. As I mentioned to Knightshade, I have a honey brown that I want to make, purely because I already have the steeping grains and the extract for it. As soon as I get that one wrapped up and in one of the fermenters, I plan to order the stuff to start doing BIAB. I don't have nearly enough room to be doing a full-blown AG setup, but from everything I've read, BIAB is just as good. I spent a few hours this morning researching SMaSH brews. A lot of people really seem to enjoy the Maris Otter & EKG brews, so that's going to be what I do next once I finish out the stuff I have on hand. I'm really excited about this. I hadn't considered doing those prior to your post, but now I'm looking forward to getting a good observation of the different flavors that everything can offer, without the complexity of it all being mixed up.

Just to be clear, BIAB is 100% all grain brewing. Using that, or 3 vessel, or some other combination is all up to user preference in the all grain world.

 

[fragged]

But but but... it says that at howtobrew.com (the 1999 edition) as well as the 3rd edition (2006).

It's not until 4th edition (2017) that "distilled, RO, or low mineral spring water" (emphasis mine) is recommended.

Which makes sense - as the professional wort makers are taking the water out and leaving minerals behind. So putting back just the water (or the water with a small amount of minerals) would seem to be the best approach.

This^... a bunch of this. I've grown up with city water my whole life, so it tastes good to me. I've also had plenty of well water, it usually doesn't taste good. Some I know is bad(sulfer) some is probably great water but doesn't have that chlorine twang I apparently am accustomed to.

However if someone made beer with any (safe) well water vs. (untreated) chlorinated tap, I'd guarantee the well water beer would probably taste better.

Point being, "water tastes good" is an extremely subjective test, and should be discarded entirely in brewing.

Which brings another thought - have lots of people sample your brews and ask for feedback. Most of my beer tastes good to me, always has. My palette isn't great, or I maybe I too often relax-and-have-a-homebrew. Others have pointed things out that I'm then able to pick up on after they've mentioned it. I'd bet I oxidized a few realizing that it was happening....

 

[Knightshade]

@Wrinkle_Fever looks like @eric19312 beat me to it, but yep. US-05 will get you there. Probably 80% of the beers I've done have been w/that stuff. I did a couple ciders with S-04 as well. I've yet to brew a "great" beer, but I think I've made some pretty darn good ones with dry yeast and will continue to use it.

Unfortunately, I can't give you any guidance in regards to LME having never used it myself. I jumped off the deep end and just went straight to AG and just have DME on hand for when I miss my gravity #s.

I'm still figuring out water chemistry myself....and I still think it is kinda confusing. I know more about it after having read about it so much, but..still confusing. I think consistency is going to be your key there. I just brewed with RO until I felt like I could tackle that challenge too. I briefly used this right out of the Anvil Foundry user manual, but shortly after I stumbled upon some other stuff and felt like I again..ready to take on the challenge.

I admire that you're striving to stick with it though, and would encourage you to keep pushing forward!

 

[Cammanron]

Hi all,
I wasn't positive where to post this, so I hope right here is alright.
I started brewing extract beer kits from Mr. Beer early last year. I believe I brewed a total of 9 of them. I picked out kits for different beer styles, stouts, ipas, ambers, porters, reds, and a weird one that used mountain dew as the base instead of water. Aside from the IPA and the MTN dew beer, they all taste nearly identical. And not really in a good way. They are drinkable, but nothing that I'd ever want to share with anyone and have pride on my chest. So I did a bunch of reading and learning, and felt like maybe it was because I was using the prehopped extract from Mr. Beer.

So I went to a local homebrew store, bought an oatmeal stout extract kit and went about making it. I worked extra hard and made sure everything was sanitized as thoroughly as I could. I converted my garage fridge into a ferm chamber and managed to hold the fermenation period at 68 degress, plus or minus 2. Spent 3 weeks fermenting, final gravity had stopped changing so I went ahead and bottled. I tried a bottle at 2 weeks, and it there was very little enjoyable about it. Had a very slight oatmeal flavor to it, which I was happy about, but aside from that, the beer wasn't very good. Here I am at 4 weeks conditioning time, tried another last night, and it still tastes the same. Just very under average. But my biggest issue I see here, is that this stout I just made, tastes almost the same as all the other MR Beer recipes I had made when I started. I can't hardly tell any difference between this stout and the amber or irish red that I had made.

I would love some feedback on what I'm doing wrong, because I'm really starting to feel defeated with this. I love the process of brewing so much, and I want to continue it. But I also want to share it, but if I can't make anything acceptable tasting, then I'm just at a loss.

I was the same... The wife got me a Mr Beer kit for my birthday one year and I didn’t use it for an entire year.... When I did brew the batch, it was some sort of lucky convergence of recipe, time, dry hopping water etc....., and it turned out really well. Since then, I couldn’t reproduce the same impression. Whether it was in my mind or the ingredients or not whatever. All the MB recipes tasted virtually the same.

NOW, I’ve got several MB keg fermenters and I use them to ferment my BIAB all grain 2- 2.5 gallon batches. I got myself an induction plate, a big SS pot, bottling wand, and a Hellfire burner. My results are worthy of the term “craft beer”. I’m really enjoying brewing recipes and consuming the results.
I think MB gets a bad rap of sorts. It was a gateway for me and I’m sure many other brewers.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm still figuring out water chemistry myself....and I still think it is kinda confusing. I know more about it after having read about it so much, but..still confusing.

"Water chemistry" is complicated.

Water treatment for brewing good beer is much easier: Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery.

The chart you posted is an interesting "in between" graphic.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Point being, "water tastes good" is an extremely subjective test, and should be discarded entirely in brewing.

AFAIK, current editions of current popular books (2016 and newer) have done this. And forums are catching up.

 

[hotbeer]

I'm of the opinion that pH matter more than the differences in mineral content for just making a decent tasting beer.

Every store bought bottled water I've tested is slightly less than neutral pH. Which will make me think most any will be better to brew with than municipal water which is very high pH.

Now if there is some particular beer taste the OP is looking for, then that may involve a specific mineral content.

 

[marc1]

I'm of the opinion that pH matter more than the differences in mineral content for just making a decent tasting beer.

Every store bought bottled water I've tested is slightly less than neutral pH. Which will make me think most any will be better to brew with than municipal water which is very high pH.

Now if there is some particular beer taste the OP is looking for, then that may involve a specific mineral content.

The pH of the water itself has very little to do with how it will work out - alkalinity will have some effect, but without buffering capacity, the water pH can change drastically with tiny additions of acid or base. It is when it is mixed with malt that the pH matters (also sparging, if the water has high alkalinity).

 

[hotbeer]

The pH of the water itself has very little to do with how it will work out - alkalinity will have some effect, but without buffering capacity, the water pH can change drastically with tiny additions of acid or base. It is when it is mixed with malt that the pH matters (also sparging, if the water has high alkalinity).

You have a point there. It's been so long since anything I ever did chemistry wise. I probably am using pH when I should think alkalinity. But in my defense I do know that my municipal water is also very alkaline as well as high pH. Even when filtered through the refrigerator water filter which essentially is just a lump of activated charcoal.

My bottled store bought water is also a much lower alkalinity as well as below neutral pH. So that might play a part in why I think the OP's issue is their municipal water, whether it tastes good or not. I'll drink my municipal water. It tastes good. But the bottled water makes a much better coffee, tea and I'll suppose beer, since I haven't used my municipal water for beer.

I've tested all these waters with test strips and also a hardness tester that a friend uses for his business to check waste water output.

It might be the simplest way for the OP to try and see. That way they don't have to overcomplicate with figuring out how much of what to put in their water.

Once they know that's part of the issue, they can go all out with being their own water processing plant if that adds fun to the beer making for them.

 

[BarryBrews]

My money's on oxygen. Doesn't take much to kill flavor.

Bottling at home is tough. Hands down the biggest improvement I experienced in flavor was using close keg transfers and other low oxygen techniques. I bottled my first 59 brews and have kegged the last 40 brews, and I can assure you kegging is far superior in every way.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@BarryBrews: have you read the recent "how to successfully bottle NEIPA" topics here at HomeBrew talk?

 

[eric19312]

I'm of the opinion that pH matter more than the differences in mineral content for just making a decent tasting beer.

Every store bought bottled water I've tested is slightly less than neutral pH. Which will make me think most any will be better to brew with than municipal water which is very high pH.

Now if there is some particular beer taste the OP is looking for, then that may involve a specific mineral content.

I tend to think the opposite. Water pH is a non issue as mentioned by @marc1 . Mash pH is an issue related to efficiency in all grain brewing and has some impact on beer flavor (but not much so long as you are in a pretty wide safe zone). Mineralization can have a profound impact on final beer flavor and character.

 

[BarryBrews]

@BarryBrews: have you read the recent "how to successfully bottle NEIPA" topics here at HomeBrew talk?

Funny thing I almost exclusively brew NEIPA's! What point are you trying to make?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What point are you trying to make?

Bottling beers that last 45 to 60 days (maybe much longer, it takes time to confirm this) appears to be a solved problem.

 

[dirkomatic]

As so many have stated... Use RO water and good old US-05. When I started brewing, dry yeast wasn't a popular or viable option and making yeast starters and harvesting yeast was really common. Now, at $3 per brew, I buy a pack of yeast and spend time/money/effort on the fermentation side of things, which is really where most of my issues have always been.

Also, you mentioned a "honey brown." Honey beers are an odd thing and I haven't tasted many homebrews which are successful with honey. Keep it simple with a pale ale recipe with RO and dry yeast. If I were you, I wouldn't even steep grains yet. Get your simple pale ale down and then steep grains after that to see how that affects things. Then change up some hops and see how they affect things... Then try to turn your pale ale into a stout by using roasted barley in the steep... Take it slowly and truly understand what you change in your process each time.

Finally, when you have the time and funds, if you're still going... Invest in the cold side of things. Stainless fermenters and or kegs are cheap enough... The initial outlay can be pricey if you buy everything all at once (CO2 tank, regulator, tubing, fittings, keg, fermenter, freezer, faucet, shank, temp controller, etc.) but being patient and piecing it out is an option and goes a long way toward better beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Also, you mentioned a "honey brown." Honey beers are an odd thing and I haven't tasted many homebrews which are successful with honey.

FWIW, the Honey Brown Ale Kit instructions are back in #38 (the kit instructions steep honey malt).

 

[Cammanron]

FWIW, the Honey Brown Ale Kit instructions are back in #38 (the kit instructions steep honey malt).

I may be wrong bit "honey brown" isn't really using much honey, if at all. It's about the impression you get from drinking it. Probably about using honey malt to get the effect you're looking for....

But what do I know?... I'm still new.

 

[Beenym88]

I feel like I am there too. Maybe its just the excitement of pouring my own brew, but right now I enjoy my own beer way more than commercial beers including some really good microbrews that used to be my go-to. Is it freshness? Or is it just because its mine? Not sure... but right now a lot of beer I am getting in store is tasting bland to me.

I think it’s because you make what you like. I now like my IPAs better than anyone’s because I prefer very low hop bitterness a little malt sweetness and fruity hops but that’s not your typical IPA.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I may be wrong but "honey brown" isn't really using much honey, if at all. It's about the impression you get from drinking it. Probably about using honey malt to get the effect you're looking for....

You are correct, the goal of honey malt is to provide those 'honey-like' flavors without needing to use honey. And honey doesn't do a good job of providing 'honey' flavors. Specialty honey is more interesting as the specialty flavors (for example orange blossom) will often remain in the beer. Buckwheat ESB Honey Ale Recipe is a beer that I brew on occasion.

Often, suppliers and/or maltsters will provide flavor profiles for the malt (text description and/or sensory profile chart). For example (from this page click on the 'information' link at the bottom of the page). It's generally good to check the information sheets as the name may not accurately describe the flavor profile. For example, with 'chocolate' malt many people taste more 'coffee' flavors than 'chocolate' flavors (link to a chocolate malt description )