Fall Brewing Season

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Ok, I'm gearing up for several batches over the next couple months.

When I first started brewing, I seemed to be doing fine until I started getting batches that had this weird taste to them. I can only describe it as gasoline-like. So, I've tried to rule out anything that might be causing esters or infection.

I went down to the local homebrew shop and asked questions while I got my partial extract kits. What he was telling me was a little surprising. The fermenting temp. ranges seemed a little broad - up to 85° and he made some other comments like "why mash when partial extract is nearly the same thing" and "I don't know why people bother to lager".

So, I'm real apprehensive. I need to find out what I've been doing wrong. What temperature ranges should I be focusing on during the brew and fermentation.

 

[mrgrimm101]

It depends on the yeast strain..each strain has a different temperature range and an idea/optimal range. Most, if not all, of these should be posted either on the pack of yeast, or online on the manufacturer's website.

For example, Fermentis Safale US-05 dry yeast has a temperature range of 53.6-77°F, but an ideal/optimal range of 59-71.6°F. Basically, you will probably be ok up to 77F, but ideally you want to keep it below about 72F. Keeping it in the "ideal" range can help limit potential off-flavors from high fermentation temps.

When doing a partial extract, you are essentially performing a mini-mash with your steeping grains. So it's actually a partial mash. This is often the case when steeping grains that cannot be steeped and need to be mashed..add a little pale 2 row to help convert these grains. It holds it at about 155F for 30-60 min (not sure which) and these non-steepable grains are converted and the sugars (along with the steeped sugars) are added to the wort.

The downside is that you still have to use extract, which is quite expensive. Plus a lot of brewers prefer to brew all grain.

Regarding the "I don't know why people bother to lager" line..I don't even know what to say. I don't lager, but that's because I brew ales and personally do not enjoy pilseners or lagers that much at all. Also, I do not have any temp-controlling equipment with which to lager. You may be able to achieve the same effect with an extended aging..but that's basically all lagering is anyway..extended aging at low temperatures. I don't think you can get a lager without actually lagering..

 

[kh54s10]

For fermentation temperatures, I suggest that you go the the yeast mfg's website and look up the "ideal" temperature range for the yeast you will use. Then keep the wort temperature at the middle of the range in most cases. There are many different methods for controlling fermentation temperatures. You will need to research what will be best for you.

Lagering is cold temperature sensative so many homebrewers do not explore them due to equipment space/costs. If you like lagers, by all means look into doing them.

 

[Hello]

"I don't know why people lager"... well tell that doofus, if you want to brew a lager then you use bottom fermenting yeast and therefore you have to "lager".

@mrgrimm101 is right, partial mash or partial extract are the same thing. Either way, you're replacing some base grain with extract. At this point I would not take advice from this guy. Everything else has already been mentioned, including yeast fermentation ranges.

As far as off flavors, gasoline may be something like fusel alcohol. Perhaps fermenting far too hot. But if you're saying specifically gasoline, then that's just not something I've encountered.

In terms of finding the source of an off flavor, I'd look into a variety of things. Some things can be a quick fix.
Fermentation temp control. If you have a method already that is working, keep it up. If not, anything from a cheap swamp cooler to a fridge or freezer with temp control will work.
Water. Easiest thing to do for me is to buy bottled spring water. At least at that point I can either rule out whatever water I used before or work to fix it. You can buy RO water and build it up as well, but I'd start with spring water.
Boil. It is important that you boil the wort. A weak boil may not cut it. You want to have a nice rolling boil.
Ingredients. If you buy your extract from the same place, switch it up for a batch. See if that helps. Grains too.

 

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Ok, you bring up two things that worry me.

First, you mentioned boiling the wort. What I've done up to this point is put the water to boil at 212°, get it down to 170° and begin the process there. Are you talking about boiling the water again at some point?

The second is fermentation temperatures. I'm really thinking that this is my biggest issue. I don't have an icebox or anything I can regulate the temperature in. How can I keep the wort at ~60-65°?

 

[atom]

First, you mentioned boiling the wort. What I've done up to this point is put the water to boil at 212°, get it down to 170° and begin the process there. Are you talking about boiling the water again at some point?

The second is fermentation temperatures. I'm really thinking that this is my biggest issue. I don't have an icebox or anything I can regulate the temperature in. How can I keep the wort at ~60-65°?

you typically boil the wort for 60-90 minutes (adding hops at different times throughout the boil) you're not doing that?

look up swamp cooler for a cheap/easy way to keep your fermentation temps down.

 

[kh54s10]

Galaxy, you need to tell us what type of brewing this is. If it is a full extract with pre-hopped extract you may not boil. If it is extract and specialty grains and you have un-hopped extract, you need hops and to boil the wort to get isomerization of the hop oils for bitterness. If you are doing partial mash you need to mash the grains at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time. You then boil and add hops.

If you are unclear on which type of brewing you will need to do more research before you brew.

Fermentation temperatures can be controlled in several ways. Research "swamp cooler" before you brew.

BTW, Either you are misunderstanding the advice you are getting from your homebrew shop or it is just terrible advice.

Get a copy of "How to Brew" and read it before your next batch.

 

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Sorry - I'm doing a partial extract. The first thing I do is bring the water to 212 degrees and then bring down to 170 to proceed with the process.

What do most people do to keep their fermenting temperatures down?

 

[unionrdr]

PM (Partial Mash) is the same as Partial Extract, but only if a mash is involved. If the grains are already converted, then you're doing " E/SG"- Extract with Steeping Grains. Steeping can be done in 20-30 minutes at 150-165F. Just use a floating thermometer or the like to heat it up to steeping or mash temp, not to boiling, then waste time waiting for it to cool down.
Mashing is done to convert the starchy grains to simple sugars at from about 147F or so up to 156F for an hour or more, depending on how well the grains were modified by the maltster. I have some ice packs from liquid yeast shipments & some velcroed straps to strap'em around the fermenters & cover with a tee shirt. Then train a fan on'em.

 

[Brew_G]

Sorry - I'm doing a partial extract. The first thing I do is bring the water to 212 degrees and then bring down to 170 to proceed with the process.

What do most people do to keep their fermenting temperatures down?

As you can see, the issue of whether you have been boiling or not has raised some questions here. This and your fermentation temps are major red flags. If you post a recipe that you've used, then folks could look at that and determine if you have a problem with your (not) boiling schedule.

In terms of fermentation temps, there are lots of ways to maintain them. Someone already mentioned the swamp cooler method. I use a variation of that in that I put my fermenter in a rope-handled tub that has enough water in it to sit at the same level of the wort in the fermenter. I use an aquarium heather to bring temps up and ice bottles to bring it down, as needed. Some use a similar process but use large coolers instead of the tubs. Some people use fermentation chambers made from refrigerators or chest freezers and temp controllers. Some folks don't use any at all because their ambient air temps keep the wort within an acceptable range. Do some research on each and decide on one that's best for your own system/space/budget

 

[Galaxy_Stranger]

This is a recipe I've followed several times and it's only come out right once: http://www.defalcos.com/component/content/article/188.html

 

[mrgrimm101]

What I've done up to this point is put the water to boil at 212°, get it down to 170° and begin the process there. Are you talking about boiling the water again at some point?

When you say "begin the process there" what are you referring to? What are you doing after you drop it to 170?

Based on that recipe, you would need to do the partial mash. You cannot convert melanoiden malt or munich malt with just steeping the grains..you need to actually mash them. To do this, you would need some pale 2 row in there as well to help the melanoiden and munich convert. Without doing this, you would get no contributions from these malts.

What you need to do is steep your grains (in a muslin grain bag) at about 155 for about 45 minutes. Then remove the grain (I do a mini sparge rinse with about 150 water). Then heat up a bit and take off heat to add the extract. Then bring to a boil, wait for the hot break, and then start my 60 minute hop addition. Add the rest of the hops to the boil as per the recipe. It says "1 oz. Hallertauer or Tettnanger hops (flavoring - no finishing hops)" so I assume that means 1 oz of Hallertauer or Tettnanger at about 15 or 10 minutes.

The thing that worries me about this recipe is it mentions both an ale fermentation and an optional lager fermentation. Are you using ale yeast and fermenting at higher ale temperatures?

 

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Right - after the initial 212° to kill all the bugs, I bring it down below 170 and start the recipe instructions.

At this particular place, the kits are sold as ales unless you tell them you are going to lager. I have never used lager yeast as I've never had the facility to lager. I have been steeping at just under 170°.

So after steeping, when you say "bring to a boil" - what temperature are you talking about? 212° again?

Another thing is - I've been using a digital Candy Thermometer to monitor temperatures. Is this accurate enough? I've gone ahead and ordered a floating thermometer.

If you fermented an ale at 80°, what would you expect to happen to the final product?

 

[mrgrimm101]

Right - after the initial 212° to kill all the bugs, I bring it down below 170 and start the recipe instructions.

At this particular place, the kits are sold as ales unless you tell them you are going to lager. I have never used lager yeast as I've never had the facility to lager. I have been steeping at just under 170°.

So after steeping, when you say "bring to a boil" - what temperature are you talking about? 212° again?

Another thing is - I've been using a digital Candy Thermometer to monitor temperatures. Is this accurate enough? I've gone ahead and ordered a floating thermometer.

If you fermented an ale at 80°, what would you expect to happen to the final product?

My question was, what is the rest of the recipe instructions? What are you actually doing after you drop temp down to 170?

I do not measure the temperature when I boil..I just bring it to a nice rolling boil for an hour and add my hops at the appropriate time. It seems pointless to me to heat it up to 212 to "kill all the bugs" and then drop the temperature to 170 to steep..then what do you do from there? Based on that recipe, what you should be doing is what I mentioned before. Steep at the appropriate temperature, add your extract, then heat to a boil for the appropriate amount of time..typically an hour.

If you fermented an ale at about 80F, you should expect some off-flavors. How much and what kinds is hard to say for sure. Specifically fusel alcohols, which can be very harsh alcohol flavors. It can also produce esters, which are more fruity and can be desired in some styles..not every style. Another off-flavor at these temps could be a solvent-like (like paint thinner). This flavor is imparted by a combination of excessively high fermentation temps and oxidation.

 

[Galaxy_Stranger]

That link IS what I do after boiling at 212°. The instructions are listed on that page. That is exactly what I've been doing. I follow that procedure just as it's written. The kit comes with everything that it lists. So, this is what I've been doing:

PROCEDURE:

Note: If you are using Wyeast liquid yeast, prepare the yeast 24 hours prior to brewing! Activate the yeast by “smacking” it to rupture the internal pouch, thereby mixing its contents with the other contents in the pouch. Allow the yeast to remain at room temperature to swell. Check the packaging date on the pouch. If it has been over two months since it was packaged, allow an extra day for the pouch to swell up. If you are using White Labs Pitchable Yeast, simply remove from refrigerator and allow to warm up to room
temperature during the brew session.

1. In a small saucepan, bring a gallon of water to 160º - 170º and turn off the heat. Add the bag of grains and calcium chloride salts and steep 30 minutes. Now, gently sparge (rinse) the grains with hot tap water (ideal temperature 168º) and bring the total volume up to two or more gallons in a stainless steel or enameled kettle (avoid aluminum). As a rule, boiling as much of the full five gallons as possible is best. Bring this mixture to a boil.

2. Turn off heat and add malt extract. Return to boil, taking care not to allow wort to overflow onto your stovetop. Start timing now, continuing the boil for 5 minutes. Add the bittering hops (1 oz. Perle or German Northern Brewer or 1 1/2 oz. Hallertauer Tradition or Saphir Hops) and boil 45 minutes. Now add the flavoring hops (1 oz. Hallertauer or Tettnanger) and boil 10 minutes. There are no aroma/finishing hops in this recipe. Simply turn off heat at the end of this last 10 minutes of boiling.

3. To facilitate cooling, we suggest placing your brewing kettle in the sink with 5 or 6 inches of cold water (A tray or two of ice cubes in the cooling bath wouldn't hurt). Allow to stand for 20 - 30 minutes in the cooling bath. Repeat, if necessary.

4. For best results, we recommend using Wyeast or White Labs liquid yeast. If using dried yeast, rehydrate it while the wort is cooling. To do this, sprinkle the yeast into a cup of lukewarm (90º - 100ºF) water and cover with saran wrap or tin foil. Let stand for 10 - 20 minutes.

5. Pour the cooled wort into the fermenter. Bring the total volume up to five gallons. Check and record the temperature and specific gravity at this time. Make the necessary gravity corrections for temperatures above 60º (Add .001 for every 7º above 60ºF).

6. If the temperature is less than 80º, pour the yeast "slurry" and the packet of Bru-Vigor (if using tap water) into the wort and place the lid and airlock over the fermenter. Although ideal fermentation temperatures are lower, it is very important to get the fermentation started as soon as possible to avoid contamination of the beer. In any case, be aware that temperatures over 110º will most likely kill your beer yeast.

7. If brewing at ale temperatures, ferment at 60º - 75ºF. For cool fermentation, allow to stand at room temperature overnight, then cool to 50º - 56ºF for primary fermentation.

8. FERMENTATION: Double Stage - The beer will be ready to rack (syphon) when the rocky head subsides (2-4 days for ale, 6 - 7 days or even longer for lager) and the gravity drops to approximately 1.016 or less. Syphon the beer into the secondary fermenter. As soon as the foaming allows, top up the secondary with water to within 2-3 inches of the fermentation lock if your volume is short. Allow to ferment and settle until action has virtually ceased and the beer has clarified.
 FERMENTATION: Single Stage - Allow wort to ferment for 7 days. Assuming your fermentation lock has stopped bubbling proceed to step #9, bottling preparations. Single Stage fermentation is not recommended for cool fermentation!

9. Check the specific gravity. This final gravity (F.G.) should read about 1.019 (or less). If it is more than 1.024, do not bottle until you call us!

10. Prepare the priming sugar by making a simple syrup on the stove. Pour the sugar into a small saucepan containing a cup of boiling water. Stir to dissolve. Alternatively, add the sugar to a cup of water in a Pyrex measuring cup and heat in microwave. Pour this mixture into the finished beer as you are syphoning it into a sanitized priming container. Stir well, but avoid excess splashing. Immediately syphon the beer into sanitized bottles, leaving about an inch of head space. Use a bottle filler for ease in filling.

11. Allow beer to age at room temperature for at least two weeks, or if you have cold fermented your beer, age at 55º for three weeks before chilling further. Peak flavor should be reached about two months and lasts several months.


My problem, then, is fermenting temperatures.

 

[Jim311]

Is this kit a partial mash kit, or does it just have specialty grains? The 30 minute steep time in only a gallon of water leads me to believe you are steeping the grains NOT mashing them, there is a difference. Specialty grains are mostly for color only and you aren't really extracting any sugars and as such the process is not very difficult, you just don't want to exceed 170 or you'll extract off colors and flavors. You remove these grains and discard them before bringing it back to a boil and adding your extract, hopefully. If you're doing all of that then I suspect fermentation temperature control is where your off flavors are coming from. For a long time I used an ice chest with some water in it. I'd put my brew thermometer in there so I knew the temp of the water, and add ice packs or frozen water bottles a couple of times a day to keep the temps down.