Extract brewing is FAKE brewing

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I actually agree with you, it is the same metaphor I have been using. It is the perfect metaphor. The comment that it is "apples to oranges", well he doesn't really understand what a metaphor is..... As I said in my post earlier in this thread, extract brewers are a sensitive lot. In the end it does not matter what method you use to brew, this is about having fun and doing something you enjoy. So enjoy and don't worry about what the elitist AG brewers think, but I'll keep my AG and y'all sensitive weenies can keep your Prego....

I'm an all grain brewer.

 

[JDWebb]

Wait a minute. Does this mean Budweiser is fake beer?

 

[jwalk4]

Not firing any shots here, but according to Gordon Strong, BJCP President,"making extract beers isn't really brewing any more than than heating up TV dinners is cooking." (Brewing better beer, pg 9)

I thought that to be a little extreme.

 

[jwalk4]

He does retract his position a little in the book by stating all the advantages of starting with extract (ex: avoiding oxidation, managing a fermentation, sanitation etc.), and even briefly touches on his own extract days.

But his ultimate position seems to be 'it's fine if you brew with extract but just don't call yourself a brewer.'

F' that.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

So here's a hypothetical thought experiment. A Tibetan monk makes a secret barley extract. The extract and the process to create it has come directly from the mythical Nirvana and only 1 pound is created every ten years. Anyone who has tried the beer made from this extract agrees that it is the literal nectar of the gods if they are being honest. You have to work at the monastery for 10 years learning to brew well before you are given the fabled extract. After the ten years you take your reward and brew your beer. Are you brewing fake beer?

 

[Bigfly]

If it wasn't for extract I never would have gone all grain. You need to crawl before you can walk. Not fake brewing just fake news.

 

[Brownalemikie]

But his ultimate position seems to be 'it's fine if you brew with extract but just don't call yourself a brewer.'

F' that.

All I brew is extract beer and don't ever plan on going all-grain due to space constraints. I'm totally content calling myself a beer "maker" rather than a brewer.

 

[jwalk4]

All I brew is extract beer and don't ever plan on going all-grain due to space constraints. I'm totally content calling myself a beer "maker" rather than a brewer.

I still brew with extracts in the winter for really similar reasons.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

All I brew is extract beer and don't ever plan on going all-grain due to space constraints. I'm totally content calling myself a beer "maker" rather than a brewer.

The same could be said about an all grain brewer though. It would be super easy to buy 9 pounds of maris otter and two ounces of cascade. Mash at around 150. Throw in one ounce at 60, throw in the other ounce at flameout. Boom you made a pale ale. Stick it in your basement for a week. Bring it upstairs for two. Probably be an awesome beer, but brewing? Probably making from my estimation. Take another scenario where an extract brewer is making a beer for a competition. She puts a lot of effort into style and recipe formulation, has expermented with hop combinations and been tweaking a certain recipe over several years. She is brewing where the all grain maker is making. It isn't the extract that makes the brewer. It is the brewer that makes the beer.

 

[Lefou]

I could care less about what Gordon Strong thinks.
I'm not brewing for "awards" and he isn't drinking my beer.

 

[jwalk4]

It is the brewer that makes the beer.

LOL!

"So yeah guys, I put together some Ikea furnature this weekend. I guess you can say I'm a master carpenter."

But in all honesty, this guy does raise an interesting point. Does more knowledge make you a better brewer?
If you can just "throw" together ingredients, and make a great, albeit simple, beer, and another brewer is frustratingly chasing his mash pH, for instance, failing to get his malt profile just right, who is the better brewer?

Maybe it's the beer that makes the brewer?

It's like the Fermis paradox of homebrewing: if all grain beer is automatically better, why have so few of us won BOS?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

LOL!

"So yeah guys, I put together some Ikea furnature this weekend. I guess you can say I'm a master carpenter."

But in all honesty, this guy does raise an interesting point. Does more knowledge make you a better brewer?
If you can just "throw" together ingredients, and make a great, albeit simple, beer, and another brewer is frustratingly chasing his mash pH, for instance, failing to get his malt profile just right, who is the better brewer?

Here's my post where a guy got BOS for his all extract beer.

Maybe it's the beer that makes the brewer?

It's like the Fermis paradox of homebrewing: if all grain beer is automatically better, why have so few of us won BOS?

It is interesting that extract brews win BOS. Here is an HBT thread with an all extract brew that has won BOS

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=322168

I could be wrong but it is my impression that all grain brews have won their fair share of comps. I suppose that the competition brewer is the author of their beer and whatever they think will benefit the process be that extract or all grain.

 

[augiedoggy]

LOL!

"So yeah guys, I put together some Ikea furnature this weekend. I guess you can say I'm a master carpenter."

But in all honesty, this guy does raise an interesting point. Does more knowledge make you a better brewer?
If you can just "throw" together ingredients, and make a great, albeit simple, beer, and another brewer is frustratingly chasing his mash pH, for instance, failing to get his malt profile just right, who is the better brewer?

Maybe it's the beer that makes the brewer?

It's like the Fermis paradox of homebrewing: if all grain beer is automatically better, why have so few of us won BOS?

I dont mean to upset anyone here or shatter anyones beliefs.

Lets look at it from another point of view.
You can make a great cake from a box mix kits... or you can make the cake from scratch... same with brownies... When someone makes brownies from a mix is it the same as making it from scratch? Most here would agree the answer is no. It requires doing more things right to get the same outcome (or POSSIBLY better). because your actually performing the whole process to make the product from the raw ingredients.
I brewed a lot of extract and partial kits in my first year of brewing before going all grain...
Just as cooking enthusiasts and chefs often dont like making box or frozen meals (or consider it cooking even though chances are thay all got hooked on the passion from starting with it) many brewing enthusiasts feel the same way about extract concentrate kits but theres plenty of people that never feel the urge or get the confidence to go beyond the cake mix kits and theres really nothing wrong with that. You dont have to worry about mash temps and sparging and efficiencies because the actual brewing part has been done for you for the most part...
But dont kid yourself, brewing all grain vs adding water to concentrated prebrewed and converted wort and adding hops and yeast are not the same thing. They are very similiar and it can be rewarding but it takes a hell of a lot more attention to detail and knowledge of how the process works to brew as good of an all grain beer consistently than it does to make a good extract kit beer. Thats why it often refereed to as the "next step " in the hobby... not everyone does it just as not every car enthusiast goes beyond blinging up their car with decals and trim and fart can mufflers and learns to do as much as changing their own oil.. But in the end a person that at least tries to do as much and learn as much as they can often takes more pride in the outcome..

The analogy of butchering the cow is totally off btw... That would be more like growing your own grain and malting it as well as hops and then brewing all grain...

 

[jwalk4]

They are very similiar and it can be rewarding but it takes a hell of a lot more attention to detail and knowledge of how the process works to brew as good of an all grain beer consistently than it does to make a good extract kit beer.

True, but a lot of all grain recipes can be made by following similar "on the box" recipes.

1. Add 1.25 qts of 161F degree water for every pound of grain
2. Hold temperature for 60-90 minutes, separate grain from liquid when done
3. Add required amount of 185F degree water to reach desired pre-boil volume *note* preboil volumes vary based on system
4. Once wort is brought to rolling boil, add bittering addition hops.
5. etc.
6. etc.

You get my point.

Ultimately, I think you are right: there can be a big difference between extract and all grain brewing. However, there is a wide, grey area filled with meaningless distictions that don't separate brewer from non-brewer when it comes to extract to all grain brewing methods (ex. hitting desired gravities, adding proper salts to brewing water, controlling fermentation schedules, etc.)

In fact, many of the "must do," or "must know," concepts supposedly required of all grain brewing are being proven to be more myth than fact (varying mash temps, boil lengths, mash ph, HSA, etc.) or is dependant on how much money a brewer wants to spend (Biab vs. 3 Vessel, bucket in basement vs. temp controlled ferm chamber).

 

[TorMag]

You dont have to worry about mash temps and sparging and efficiencies because the actual brewing part has been done for you for the most part...
But dont kid yourself, brewing all grain vs adding water to concentrated prebrewed and converted wort and adding hops and yeast are not the same thing. They are very similiar and it can be rewarding but it takes a hell of a lot more attention to detail and knowledge of how the process works to brew as good of an all grain beer consistently than it does to make a good extract kit beer.

That pretty much sums up this whole thread.

 

[flars]

I always thought the reason for brewing your own beer was to enjoy what you poured in your glass. How you get there makes very little difference.

 

[Timberline]

Excellent!, so I've taken on yet another hobby with self-appointed "elitists".

I get the same thing from Harley owners, Sig Sauer shooters, and Yeti pedalers. I guess some people never progress past high school where you're judged because you don't have the alligator or tiger on your shirt. (probably showing my age with that one!).

 

[Bigfly]

LOL!

"So yeah guys, I put together some Ikea furnature this weekend. I guess you can say I'm a master carpenter."

No that's extract carpentry. You had to extract it from the box.

 

[augiedoggy]

Excellent!, so I've taken on yet another hobby with self-appointed "elitists".

I get the same thing from Harley riders, Sig Sauer shooters, and Yeti pedalers. I guess some people never progress past high school where you're judged because you don't have the alligator or tiger on your shirt. (probably showing my age with that one!).

So wait you dont agree all grain brewing requires more work, knowledge and attention to detail? I take it you have made made beer from all grain as well as extract to come up with that opinion?

Im sorry but if it really didnt require any skills or knowledge there wouldnt be so many extract brewers afraid to jump to all grain...There are some that tried it and just cant seem to do well at it and went back to brewing from concentrate. Its not at all about being an "elitist" about anything.. which BTW im sure you've never done when your bragging about making beer to your buddies right?

The plain and simple truth is its a lot easier to make good beer from an extract kit than it is to make that same beer from scratch. It is what it is. I'm sorry I somehow hurt your feelings because you feel everyone should go home with the same trophy regardless of the time and effort they put into the hobby and art of beermaking..

I'm far from being a master brewer and Ive had plenty of bad batches of beer Ive learned from to get where I am now.. Ive had to dump a few that were undrinkable... Maybe when you actually try all grain and have full understanding of what your arguing against now you'll change your point of view... If they were the same thing they wouldnt have separate sections of the forum for each. It used to take me an hour and a half to 2 hours to brew extract... It takes my more than twice as long to brew with all grain because theres just more to it.

 

[augiedoggy]

No that's extract carpentry. You had to extract it from the box.

Thats actually not carpentry at all...
Thats using a wrench or screwdriver to assemble funiture... I went to school to be a carpenter and there a lot more to it then screwing together someone elses pre-designed and precut particle board furniture kit where x marks the spot. I started assembling this type of furniture for my parents when I was like 12 because my dad wasnt good with directions or tools.

Now a furniture craftman would start with lumber and design cut and craft his own furniture from it...
A homeowner, ( homeowners son) or perhaps stockboy or employee at the local value hardware would assemble the furniture "kits", with no skills or special knowledge needed other than knowing how to use hand tools and follow directions since someone else already did the hard work and when its done it will very likely come out exactly as the kit designers made it to.

Not that im trying to compare the two as an analogy between brewing beer from scratch and using an extract kit.

 

[augiedoggy]

I always thought the reason for brewing your own beer was to enjoy what you poured in your glass. How you get there makes very little difference.

Then whats the point of even buying a kit and making someone elses beer recipe when you can just go out and buy the beer already made? Thats not the the only reason for many home brewers. I think for many its how you get there that makes all the difference if not a large part of it... Extract or all grain... I'm just saying one is more advanced and more involved than the other just like a cake mix vs scratch.. Its not an opinion its fact and its a pretty fair analogy and they both still beat buying the cake already made in most cases.

even after 4 years I still consider myself a better extract brewer than I am at all grain.

 

[JDWebb]

Kraft makes macaroni & cheese in box. Is that fake macaroni and cheese? My wife insists that it's imitation Italian food.

 

[jwalk4]

Excellent!, so I've taken on yet another hobby with self-appointed "elitists".

Hey!

If you make a BOS extract brew, I want to hear how you did it!

It would save me hours on brew days! That's why I still make the occasional extract batch.

In fact, I may make an extract batch this weekend, just because of this thread.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Hey!

If you make a BOS extract brew, I want to hear how you did it!

It would save me hours on brew days! That's why I still make the occasional extract batch.

In fact, I may make an extract batch this weekend, just because of this thread.

See my post on page ten for a link to the thread of an all extract BOS.

 

[Brownalemikie]

I always thought the reason for brewing your own beer was to enjoy what you poured in your glass. How you get there makes very little difference.

I agree.....the only reason I started making beer was because after moving from Minnesota to Florida, I couldn't find any decent brown ale. If I was still living in Minnesota I'd be buying Bitteschlappe Brown Ale from Excelsior Brewery.

Mission accomplished....hence I make Caribou Slobber

Btw, Flars has been very helpful in my success.

 

[augiedoggy]

Kraft makes macaroni & cheese in box. Is that fake macaroni and cheese? My wife insists that it's imitation Italian food.

Well it certainly isnt the same quality mararoni and cheese you might find made from scratch at a good restaurant..

How about this...
if you pour crushed coffee beans into a coffee maker and fire it up your brewing the coffee but are you still doing the same thing when you make instant coffee? No because brewing is the process of extracting the flavor from the raw bean through steeping in hot water... Well the same goes with grain if you want to be technical and correct. and while your still making your own beer a huge portion (the actual brewing and conversion) is predone with extract brewing however your still partially brewing if you add your own hops and dont use the prehopped extract.

 

[AdamEltro]

Laughing at someone for extract brewing is like laughing at a fat person in the gym, it's just not on.

If you're happy with the taste of your beer & getting fulfilment, good on you. You may also not be able to afford all grain kit.

For those of us who prefer all grain, that's probably because we prefer the challenge, time & creativity

It's all beer, all beer is good

 

[beernutz]

Excellent!, so I've taken on yet another hobby with self-appointed "elitists".

I get the same thing from Harley owners, Sig Sauer shooters, and Yeti pedalers. I guess some people never progress past high school where you're judged because you don't have the alligator or tiger on your shirt. (probably showing my age with that one!).

Serious question, is there a hobby which doesn't have self-appointed elitists?

 

[TorMag]

Laughing at someone for extract brewing is like laughing at a fat person in the gym, it's just not on.

I don't think anyone is laughing at the extract brewing. Just two different sides of the beer coin.

 

[augiedoggy]

Laughing at someone for extract brewing is like laughing at a fat person in the gym, it's just not on.

If you're happy with the taste of your beer & getting fulfilment, good on you. You may also not be able to afford all grain kit.

For those of us who prefer all grain, that's probably because we prefer the challenge, time & creativity

It's all beer, all beer is good

I dont know whos laughing or putting anyone down for doing it but it wasnt me? I was just pointing out that they are not the same thing as much as it upset those that want to play it down and pretend it is. 90% of home brewers get their start doing extract whether they switch to all grain or not. All grain can be a lot more rewarding and open up a lot of other possibilities. its can also be very disappointing at times and its really not for everyone for many reasons.. The example is for those who just want to replicate or tweak a beer they cant get. For some of the same reasons extract isnt enough for everyone either.

 

[bernardsmith]

Does all this mean that unless you grow the barley yourself you are not a brewer? After all, when you buy Maris Otter someone has taken some raw barley harvested at just the right time, malted it for just the right amount of time at just the right temperature maintaining just the right amount of humidity and so the moisture for me to buy from a bin at my LHBS. All grain brewing is hardly any different than opening a packet of Betty Crocker. - and the farmer who harvested the barley.. don't tell me that she bought a harvester and did not use a scythe that she sharpened with a whetstone.

 

[StewMakesBrew]

So while all of the replies to this thread run to the humor side, I would NEVER say anyone that extract brews isn't a real brewer as I made some damn FINE beers from 1999 until 2015 when I finally started all grain brewing.

So that said, I do have to say this - I love all-grain brewing. I have done 6 batches in just over a year - far more than I ever brewed when I was doing extract. I love the control, the "contact with the ingredients", and, well, the results! I feel much more in touch with the science, with the art, everything.

I do highly recommend giving all-grain a try. Take an all-grain class at a local home brew store, if you're lucky enough to have one around. Or try a friend's setup if you have an all-grain brewing friend. The process is simple - most extract brewer guys already do the process - you're steeping grains for 45 minutes to an hour in hot water - not much difference between that and mashing, to be honest, and from there, it's no different, other than you need to be able to accommodate a "full batch" boil. What got me there is that I had upgraded my brew kettle from 7 gallons to 10 as I wanted to do full batch boils for my extract beers without being so "close to the brim" ... and from there, it was a cooler, a false bottom a couple of valves and hoses and I was in business for all-grain brewing. The brew day grows by a couple of hours and there's more crap to wash, but that's about it.

So again, no knock ever all on my extract brothers - I'm sure I'll brew some extract batches in my future when I just want to brew and not invest the time and effort for an all-grain batch.

But if you haven't tried going all-grain, I definitely recommend giving it a bash.

Brew on, my friends, Brew on!

 

[flars]

Some interesting opinions expressed in this thread. Some were good, some were not good.


In my opinion the OP is trolling even though this is my second post in this thread.

 

[beernutz]

Some interesting opinions expressed in this thread. Some were good, some were not good.


In my opinion the OP is trolling even though this is my second post in this thread.

The title of the thread was unnecessarily provocative imo.

 

[augiedoggy]

Does all this mean that unless you grow the barley yourself you are not a brewer? After all, when you buy Maris Otter someone has taken some raw barley harvested at just the right time, malted it for just the right amount of time at just the right temperature maintaining just the right amount of humidity and so the moisture for me to buy from a bin at my LHBS. All grain brewing is hardly any different than opening a packet of Betty Crocker. - and the farmer who harvested the barley.. don't tell me that she bought a harvester and did not use a scythe that she sharpened with a whetstone.

um no... I believe your purposely grossly exaggerating and avoiding the point which is pretty clear... theres a big difference between mixing the flours, eggs seasonings, oil and other basic ingredients to bake from them vs adding a premixed powder with water to reconstitute the particular flavor cake batter already made by someone else and that really does directly correlate here. if you really loved a good cake and paid good money to buy one you wouldnt likely pay for one that someone made from a "betty crocker" cake mix box would you? No you would want one made from scratch. If you went to a microbrewery to buy a growler of scottish ale beer you wouldnt expect and pay to buy one that was made with a coopers Scottish ale extract kit would you? No you would feel ripped off.

Again the actual process of brewing is just that, Brewing .. meaning steeping certain combinations of crushed grain and/or adjuncts at certain temps to produce a certain flavor profile and body allong with a certain amount of alchol potential which when mixed with certain spices and or hops boiled for varing amounts of time make different beers. Just like a brewery does when they brew beer or make wort to dry or concentrate into extract for others to finish making beer from.
So if you look at it logically then yeah its pretty clear that most of the "brewing process" has been done prior to the act of homebrewing depending on how a person is using the extract.
If they are flavoring the beer by steeping and "brewing" with the specialty grains to do so, it is a lot closer to the complete process of brewing beer than just using all premade wort extract in a can or powder with water or water and hops.

 

[augiedoggy]

Some interesting opinions expressed in this thread. Some were good, some were not good.


In my opinion the OP is trolling even though this is my second post in this thread.

I agree... I regret even commenting because everything I say is taken somehow as an insult instead of objectively as what it is intended by trying to compare the facts of the two different processes and how they are different.
.
This is a conversation that just cant unbiasedly be had in this section of the forum... I have a feeling if it was brought up in another section where the majority of the members have experience with both extract and all grain that it would have gone a lot differently.

 

[Cauchy]

"Extract brewing not brewing!"

Might be butthurt by extract brewer.

 

[myelo]

Why do people keep talking about baking cakes? Have I stumbled into the wrong forum?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I used to have an Alfa Romeo 916 Spider for a while, and was treated like crap for having wide aftermarket rims with god forbid spacers at the back as well as a big audio amp fitted into the cockpit so that people can see it!

That's the same thing as a "chain drive Fiat", ain't it?.......

 

[Brownalemikie]

I agree... I regret even commenting because everything I say is taken somehow as an insult instead of objectively as what it is intended by trying to compare the facts of the two different processes and how they are different.
.
This is a conversation that just cant unbiasedly be had in this section of the forum... I have a feeling if it was brought up in another section where the majority of the members have experience with both extract and all grain that it would have gone a lot differently.

Damn, IMO you just can't stand it if some of us are totally content with extract recipes. IMO, it doesn't matter how I get from point A to point B just so I get there. Which reminds me, it's time for another extract home brew.

Btw, my recipes call for steeping grains, hops and yes even yeast.....so yes, I make beer.