Experiences with different saison yeast blends

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I don't know if anyone said this yet because I didn't read through every post. But one thing I want to add (since it is pretty relevant) is that WLP565 is actually supposed to be used in combination with another yeast. I either read Chris White say this or heard him say it on a podcast, I can't remember. But one of the problems a lot of people have with 565 is its slow or low attenuation.

You totally CAN use it by itself, but using it as a dual pitch might provide better results.
 
shanecb said:
I don't know if anyone said this yet because I didn't read through every post. But one thing I want to add (since it is pretty relevant) is that WLP565 is actually supposed to be used in combination with another yeast. I either read Chris White say this or heard him say it on a podcast, I can't remember. But one of the problems a lot of people have with 565 is its slow or low attenuation.

You totally CAN use it by itself, but using it as a dual pitch might provide better results.
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565 is reported to come from DuPont. It's recommended to use another yeast to aid in eliminating the lag time at the end of the fermentation cycle that this yeast is known for but not necessary as it will attenuate out with time. I'm under the impression that DuPont uses a (very mild) Brett in combo with this particular strain (don't ask me for citations because I can't tell you where I've heard that or how true it is/isn't).
 
There's definitely no Brett in Dupont. There is likely several strains of sacc.

I've been using 3724 on low gravity saisons for a few months with no problem. The first few gens took a couple weeks to hit FG. Now it cranks down to 1.004 in 5 days.
 
WLP565 and WLP566 are reported to be isolated from Dupont. They definitely have a myriad of stuff in their house culture but it sounds like 565 is the primary strain
 
I have been using yeast grown up from a dupont bottle for a few generations and don't think there is brett in there.
 
updates:

WLP585 / INISBC-291 vs WLP585 / Hothead
The 2 batches of these I did with the same grain bill, to try and compare better, are almost to the point where I'd feel comfortable doing a side by side. They both are starting to show the nuances that made the earlier ones I did with these combos my favorites

WLP565 / INISBC-291
This one changed a lot in the past few weeks. I initially dismissed it as a so-so combo being that it just had too much malt and spices for me but it really came around. The flavors are more dominated by the strawberry and kinda woody hay from 291 but the finish is all 565 in its pepperyness. Its got a bit of bite at the end unlike the clean finish I always get with 291. This is about perfect for a saison in my book. Checks all the right boxes and none of the bad ones

WLP585 / INISBC-291 - table saison
Doing this a third time, but decided to try a <4% beer to see how it affected the yeast character. From what I can taste, its very similar, but a bit more spice than i'd expect. So instead of a tart fruit bomb its a bit more balanced, though definitely still on the fruity side. Used about 50% flaked adjuncts to try and keep the body from being watery. Ended up at 4.2% though, oops

Hothead / INISBC-291
Tried this again. Last time it turned out really nice but a bit too lemon focused IMO. One brewer I had taste it said it reminded him of an almost pink lemonade beer. So far, it seems more tart berry fruits, but ill see how it develops
 
What gravity have you seen 585 get down to? I am brewing a 1.037 saison tomorrow and will split it between 585 and imperial rustic, then blend them to taste.
 
chrilr said:
What gravity have you seen 585 get down to? I am brewing a 1.037 saison tomorrow and will split it between 585 and imperial rustic, then blend them to taste.
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it gets pretty dry, though not ridiculous like wy3711. Depending on your grain bill and mash, I think it could easily get below 1.000 starting from 1.037
 
Brewmasher said:
I just bottled my first saison using WY3711 Sunday. I only got down to 1.006 using only pale 2 row, mashing at 149F and letting slowly rise to 158 over 90 min. It sat for over a week with no change, so I assumed it was done. I still primed on the low side, just in case.

I force carbed a PET bottle and drank it yesterday. A lot of bubblegum, but I like bubblegum and that is what I was after. I thought it was awesome just 3 weeks straight out the fermenter. It will be interesting to see how it ages out, but I don't think its going to last that long!

Started a rye saison with 15% malted rye and 10% flaked rye. This time I added 2# turbinado sugar. We'll see if this will dry it out some more.
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I tried a bottle the yesterday. Almost completely carbed as I was out of town last weekend and the house got into the 80's.

All, I mean ALL of the bubblegum, and any other flavors are gone. Now it is pretty bland. The hop bitterness is forward even though I kept the bittering charge low, and used a bit more at 10 min for flavor. I assume that the yeast cleaned up the esters while conditioning.

My question is if I wanted those ester flavors and used a different yeast (I was thinking 3787) to get them, would the 3711 "clean up" those esters too?
 
So I've been really getting into saisons lately. I would love to start focusing on saisons/funk/sours.

I have been using 3711, and I love how care-free it is, and the fruitiness. But I could use a bit more character. Any suggestions?

I'm thinking starting off with DuPont and finishing up with 3711.
 
ThatVideoKid said:
So I've been really getting into saisons lately. I would love to start focusing on saisons/funk/sours.

I have been using 3711, and I love how care-free it is, and the fruitiness. But I could use a bit more character. Any suggestions?

I'm thinking starting off with DuPont and finishing up with 3711.
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You cant really go wrong, IMO, 3711 is a great yeast for blending. But it is also great for use as a sort of secondary yeast to help supplement anticipated lacking characteristics (like attenuation and body) in beers where its fruity character wont be out of place.

I feel it can be a bit boring by itself though. I've had more than one occasion where I try a saison at a new brewery and instantly asked the brewer if they used 3711 and fermented it cooler. For me, its too "clean." When I say clean, I dont mean like how you would describe US-05, which doesnt leave its unique stamp on the flavor of the final beer. It definitely tastes like a saison yeast. But the flavor is a bit 1-dimensional and the finish it too clean and just kinda falls right off. I'm not saying you cant make a great saison with just 3711, im just saying usually i would want some hops, spices, high temp fermentation, etc to give the final beer a bit more character

[/rant]

So for blending, i've probably used this yeast more than any other. It works well for me co-pitching in farmhouse ales or delayed smaller pitches in stuff you want super dry. For saisons, I've tried using it with WLP565, WLP566, WLP585, YB Wallonian Farmhouse, YB Belgian Dry, Omega Hothead, INISBC-291.

My 2 favorites were in combination with Hothead and Wallonian Farmhouse, but really anything will work. The hothead one was all fruit and i used some fruity nz hops on top of that. The wallonian one was ridiculously dry and had a nice mix of lemon and earthy ginger spice. I'd say wlp565 would be the classic combo which would be the easiest to get.
 
m00ps said:
You cant really go wrong, IMO, 3711 is a great yeast for blending. But it is also great for use as a sort of secondary yeast to help supplement anticipated lacking characteristics (like attenuation and body) in beers where its fruity character wont be out of place.



I feel it can be a bit boring by itself though. I've had more than one occasion where I try a saison at a new brewery and instantly asked the brewer if they used 3711 and fermented it cooler. For me, its too "clean." When I say clean, I dont mean like how you would describe US-05, which doesnt leave its unique stamp on the flavor of the final beer. It definitely tastes like a saison yeast. But the flavor is a bit 1-dimensional and the finish it too clean and just kinda falls right off. I'm not saying you cant make a great saison with just 3711, im just saying usually i would want some hops, spices, high temp fermentation, etc to give the final beer a bit more character



[/rant]



So for blending, i've probably used this yeast more than any other. It works well for me co-pitching in farmhouse ales or delayed smaller pitches in stuff you want super dry. For saisons, I've tried using it with WLP565, WLP566, WLP585, YB Wallonian Farmhouse, YB Belgian Dry, Omega Hothead, INISBC-291.



My 2 favorites were in combination with Hothead and Wallonian Farmhouse, but really anything will work. The hothead one was all fruit and i used some fruity nz hops on top of that. The wallonian one was ridiculously dry and had a nice mix of lemon and earthy ginger spice. I'd say wlp565 would be the classic combo which would be the easiest to get.
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I feel the same way about 3711. The mouthfeel is bar none for saisons. I just finished up a 3.6% saison that I let 3711 free rise. The saison flavor is as you say, fairly one note. But for 3.6% and how dry it is, the mouthfeel is killer.

I really want to focus on saisons. It's a style I really enjoy when done right, and it's a pretty cheap brew, that's helps.
 
TravelingLight said:
Welp this is disappointing seeings how I'm brewing my first saison this weekend and using 3711!
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I have brewed some of my best saisons and actually some of my best beer ever with just 3711 so don't be disappointed at all. It will give you a baseline for good saison without fail and you can experiment from there.
 
Great thread m00ps!

I'm thinking about using WY 3724 Belgian Saison for the first time but would like to go single strain and avoid both long fermentation and the dreaded "1.020 stall". I've been reading that open-style fermentation can prevent the stall. Anybody know if this is indeed true for 3724? I'm thinking about doing this (loose lid on bucket), with increased fermentation temp. I'm hoping to have it finish dry in 3-4 weeks. Thanks in advance.
 
Brulosophy just tested this if I remember correctly with no differences. I use this strain all the time with no issues. Just pitch around 19-20 c and let it free rise for 2-3 days. Then start adding heat to get it up to 28-30 and hold there.
 
Also someone made the point that theoretically the back-pressure idea doesn't really hold. The pressure exerted on the yeast by 5 gallons of liquid is way more than the inch in the airlock. It's a drop in the bucket.
 
trav77 said:
Brulosophy just tested this if I remember correctly with no differences. I use this strain all the time with no issues. Just pitch around 19-20 c and let it free rise for 2-3 days. Then start adding heat to get it up to 28-30 and hold there.
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Thanks trav. How long does it take to complete at 28-30 in your experience?
 
Yup. Just make an appropriate starter. In fact my last couple were going pretty quick and my worry was getting the temp up high enough before it attenuated too much.
 
trav77 said:
Yup. Just make an appropriate starter. In fact my last couple were going pretty quick and my worry was getting the temp up high enough before it attenuated too much.
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I think I'll just do a 1.5L starter for 5 gallons @ 1.045. By the way, do you get similar attenuation to 3711 (90% ish) with a low mash?
 
With 3724, go low gravity on the first gen (

Edit: I had some really great advice but it disappeared when I tried to edit.
 
rhys333 said:
Looking forward to reading it if you get a chance to repost :)
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Ha. Nothing mind blowing, but here's what I've learned after 6 months of working with it.

Generation and temp profile seem to be the most important factors. I tried several rounds with no airlock and they worked out well, but so did the airlock trials. The first few batches took longer, 10-14 days, but now it ferments down to 1.005 in 5 days. I also tried starting and finishing high (pitch at 80, ramp to 90+). No issues with fusels but I don't lie the ester character the high start produces. Now I start at 68, hold for 48, and then ramp to low 80s. I do lower gravity saisons in general but I would suggest keeping it to 1.035-1.040 for the first gen or two, until your culture gets used to fermenting outside the lab. Also, temp swings will really slow things down, so a controller/chamber is a must.
 
tagz said:
Ha. Nothing mind blowing, but here's what I've learned after 6 months of working with it.

Generation and temp profile seem to be the most important factors. I tried several rounds with no airlock and they worked out well, but so did the airlock trials. The first few batches took longer, 10-14 days, but now it ferments down to 1.005 in 5 days. I also tried starting and finishing high (pitch at 80, ramp to 90+). No issues with fusels but I don't lie the ester character the high start produces. Now I start at 68, hold for 48, and then ramp to low 80s. I do lower gravity saisons in general but I would suggest keeping it to 1.035-1.040 for the first gen or two, until your culture gets used to fermenting outside the lab. Also, temp swings will really slow things down, so a controller/chamber is a must.
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Great info, thanks. I think for the first effort I'll try a lowish 1.045 OG and either use a bare bones grist or do a saison wheat beer. I don't have a chamber, but my basement is stable and I can maintain low 80s with a brew belt and timer.
 
Looking back through my notes, I've done 3 saisons this year with that strain (well, technically with WLP565). All 3 mashed fairly low at 65 C. All 3 in the 1.050-1.055 range. All got down to 1.007-1.009. No kettle sugars. So not ridiculously dry like 3711 will get you but pretty good nonetheless. From what I've read DuPont doesn't just ferment with a single strain anyways, so in the spirit of this thread, I would late pitch some 3711 or Wallonian if you want super dry saison.

Also looking back at my recipes/notes: my official fermentation schedule is pitch @ 20 C. Hold 24 h then start ramping to 30 C over the course of 3 days. Something like + 2 C / 12 h. Hold there until FG.

I have never had this strain stall, even in 1st generation (albeit with starters) according to:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Hope that helps.
 
trav77 said:
Hope that helps.
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Helps a lot. Thanks. I made a starter yesterday and it either went hard and fast or stalled out on me. Little to no krausen formed though, so I'm thinking the latter. I've applied some heat, but its still flatlining. I'll just pitch tomorrow afternoon and see what happens.
 
You're fine. It's probably the former! That much yeast in a small volume goes hard and fast. Almost never get krausen on my starters.
 
I usually get a healthy krausen on starters, but now I think about it, its usually 2nd, 3rd, gen etc. starters that show krausen. Smack packs do tend to perform less vigorously on 1st gen for me.
 
@m00ps or any others, I'm thinking of trying a blend of Belle Saison and WY3522. Why, because I have them, and I find the BS lacking a little more depth in flavor.

Does this sound like a reasonable blend (all I could find here was regarding WLP 545, as far as an Ardennes yeast)?

Would you recommending pitching them at the same time, or allowing the BS to ferment for a couple, three days prior to pitching the 3522?
 
bucketnative said:
@m00ps or any others, I'm thinking of trying a blend of Belle Saison and WY3522. Why, because I have them, and I find the BS lacking a little more depth in flavor.

Does this sound like a reasonable blend (all I could find here was regarding WLP 545, as far as an Ardennes yeast)?

Would you recommending pitching them at the same time, or allowing the BS to ferment for a couple, three days prior to pitching the 3522?
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I've been thinking of doing something similar, with 530 and 3711. If I were you, I'd either pitch at the same time or do the 3522 first. I would think that if you pitched the Belle Saison first it would ferment most of what was fermentable and not leave the 3522 much to work with. I think you could get some nice flavors from the 3522, then finish it up with the Belle Saison for some of the saison notes and extra dryness. Just my two cents.
 
popsicleian said:
I would think that if you pitched the Belle Saison first it would ferment most of what was fermentable and not leave the 3522 much to work with.
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That's what I was wondering about.

I don't run with temperature control on my fermentations. I had just finished up a dubbel with 3522 at 80F (Wyeast used to recommend up to 85F for this strain), and it had some interesting esters (banana) and some phenols (solvent). I am hoping to age it out for a few months in bottle before trying. I was worried that they might be too prolific in a blend.

I was thinking of possibly letting the BS start off, and then add 3522 after for some background notes. But then, the 3522 might very well be completely overrun by BS.
 
popsicleian said:
I've been thinking of doing something similar, with 530 and 3711. If I were you, I'd either pitch at the same time or do the 3522 first. I would think that if you pitched the Belle Saison first it would ferment most of what was fermentable and not leave the 3522 much to work with. I think you could get some nice flavors from the 3522, then finish it up with the Belle Saison for some of the saison notes and extra dryness. Just my two cents.
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+1 give the 3522 a head start and let the BS finish it off because it's not going to give other yeasts much of a chance to work.
 

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