Existential Crisis About Lagers

[Brewsit]

In contemplating life's defining moments, I've come to a crossroad about lagers. In this age where we have so many choices of yeast, what the hell is the point of using a traditional lager yeast? Beside the pure challenge of doing something that is generally considered more difficult - why ever use a lager yeast when we can use amazingly clean fermenting ale yeasts, and even more so kveik, to create a product that comes out so great? Is the definition of a lager shifting, and can we claim that a lager is a lager if it is presented as such, or are we still tied to traditional yeast if we want to claim lager styles? If it's clear and clean and represents the style - is that enough?

 

[Sammy86]

what the hell is the point of using a traditional lager yeast?

The point is to make a lager beer...if the beer has ale yeast its an ale.

Beside the pure challenge of doing something that is generally considered more difficult

Brewing lagers is not anymore difficult then brewing an ale...mash the grains, lauter or don't, boil, add hops, chill and pitch yeast.

Is the definition of a lager shifting,

Nope, the definition has not changed...Lager beers use bottom fermentinng yeast and ales use top fermenting yeast.

If it's clear and clean and represents the style - is that enough?

Not unless it has lager yeast...sure ale yeasts can create clean, clear, crisp beer...that doesn't mean they're lagers.

 

[VikeMan]

why ever use a lager yeast when we can use amazingly clean fermenting ale yeasts, and even more so kveik, to create a product that comes out so great?

Well, we all have our definition of great, I guess. Personally, I haven't tasted an ale yeast "lager" that was convincing. "Clean" is relative.

If it's clear and clean and represents the style - is that enough?

It might be, if it were truly happening.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

If I’m making lager I like to use lager yeast and ferment it cold. I haven’t liked them when fermented warm and with an ale yeast, they’re clean and enjoyable but still personally not the same as cold fermented with lager yeast. Just my preference, YMMV

I tried omega lutra and while it was clean enough for an ale, I’m not interested in using it for a pseudo lager

 

[McKnuckle]

I think that yeast and fermentation are key to achieving stylistic authenticity in all European types of beer. This is not a snobby or pedantic thing; I simply think it makes a difference. British bitter is not right without a fruity British yeast. Belgians literally require a particular family of yeasts.

American styles are mostly about the hops, so yeast stays out of the way, leaving them as a general exception to the rule, hence why I stated European.

Without lager yeast and a very clean fermentation, you are left with just a generic beer. I have tried warmer ferments, fermenting under pressure, fermenting lager grain bills with ale yeast, and fermenting with kveik, and all have been less satisfying to me than following a more-or-less traditional lager fermentation process.

I don't think it's any harder to do, and frankly with temp control it's dead-ass easy if you follow some basic principles. Plus honestly, I like the sense that I'm approximating something old and traditional.

Finally, the noun "lager" to me is a traditional lager style, like helles or märzen. The verb "to lager" can be practiced with any beer style, and generally improves it. We do it unintentionally whenever we let a keg or bottles sit in the cold for weeks.

 

[monkeymath]

What is it that makes everyone say that lagers were "clean"? A Kölsch is much "cleaner" than a Pils or Helles. Lagers are kinda stinky (in a good way), at least the German ones.

Lagers have a very specific taste that you can always single out. I've never had an ale that tasted like a lager. Some saisons actually have a bit of that slight waft of basement, but of course they also bring phenolics and esters to the table and what not.

 

[McKnuckle]

What is it that makes everyone say that lagers were "clean"?

The malt and hops used in most lagers, or let's be real here and say pale to amber lagers, are rather subtle. Noble hops are spicy and floral, blah blah, but honestly they are way more understated than anything American.

Any yeast that spews even a whiff of esters and phenols into the beer is going to overwhelm all of that. And I feel that's what's happened when I've tried to make pseudo-lagers with US-05 or even K-97. I even taste it with 34/70 fermented warm, as is the current trend.

So when I think about "clean" I'm imagining a flavor profile that allows the subtle malt and hop ingredients to shine. And so far I've only been able to achieve that with a traditional cold fermentation using lager yeast. Yes, I hear you about sulfur (Stinky? Basement?) as an occasional element of lager fermentation, but it should be a ring around the core flavor, not a central theme.

 

[monkeymath]

So when I think about "clean" I'm imagining a flavor profile that allows the subtle malt and hop ingredients to shine. And so far I've only been able to achieve that with a traditional cold fermentation using lager yeast. Yes, I hear you about sulfur (Stinky? Basement?) as an occasional element of lager fermentation, but it should be a ring around the core flavor, not a central theme.

I don't think the real "lager taste" is the absence of something (be it fruity esters or phenols), but rather the presence of something else, a unique character of the yeast strain and the cold fermentation. Most Kölschs are rather bland compared to a Bavarian Helles. Yes, some of them have some fruity yeast character (Früh Kölsch, for example), but most (for example Reissdorf) are much "cleaner" (in the sense that you have a seemingly pure expression of malt and hops) than any lager could ever be. I remember visiting Mikeller when I was in Kopenhagen and the bartender praised their "super clean lager": it was indeed very clean and very unremarkable in every way.
There are some international lagers - I'm thinking of Kirin Ichiban - that have a restrained lager character, but they are still unmistakably lagers. There is something that you get from the aroma alone, a certain whiff that ales simply do not have, and there is certain "cut off" in the finish (ales, in comparison, have a certain fullness, almost sweetness, in the finish).

Coaxing out that particular taste, alas, does not seem to be so easy for homebrewers. Maybe it is what the LODO-folks refer to as "it", but I'm not sure (since they also apply it to ales iirc).

FYI drinking a Tegernseer Hell as we speak

 

[bracconiere]

i've brewed lagers...lager yeast gives the beer a smooth creamy feel/taste. i don't think ale yeast will ever duplicate.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Well, we all have our definition of great, I guess. Personally, I haven't tasted an ale yeast "lager" that was convincing. "Clean" is relative.



It might be, if it were truly happening.

Have you tried one done with kveik? Because if treated like a lager except the ferm temp, there's no difference I can taste between commercial craft lagers and mine, I do lager them for a week and an extra week after bottling, I do single or double decoction too, oh and I pitch lots of yeast to avoid any kind of ester

 

[VikeMan]

Have you tried one done with kveik?

Yes, I have. Both commercial and home brewed. I was unimpressed.

 

[McKnuckle]

@monkeymath I think you are right on the money. All of these points, though, are exactly why I don't think the OP should have an existential crisis about lagers. They are indeed a unique thing, greater than the sum of their parts, as it were.

 

[ba-brewer]

Why use lager yeast and an appropriate fermentation schedule? It adds je ne sais quoi.

I have done split batches and fermented with lager yeast and clean ale yeasts, I get different beers.

This is home brewing and we are the brewers and consumers, if ale yeast get a beer you like and meets your lager qualifications go for it.

We do it unintentionally whenever we let a keg or bottles sit in the cold for weeks.

Not unintentional at my house. I like all of beers with at least 4 weeks in the cooler, even my American IPAs and English ales. Once I starting giving my english ales longer conditioning time I was able to get more yeast character from them(may be a personal problem).

 

[VikeMan]

I think it will be very interesting if we see ale (including Kveik) yeast "lagers" start to win best of show medals. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[McKnuckle]

Maybe we could hijack the thread - or augment it, I think in a useful way - and mention some lager yeast strains that we think are worthwhile to seek out and use.

I'll admit to being relatively shallow in my lager yeast experience. I've brewed a good many lagers, but only used three strains that I can recall. W-34/70 of course, which is fine but unremarkable. WLP800 which I didn't really like. And WLP802 which is the one I've gone out of my way to harvest, re-use, and go deeper with. That's my "house" lager strain, if only because I think it makes nice beers and sometimes it's good to stick with something that works.

Thoughts?

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I like wyeast danish lager the most, in adjunct lagers, which I like when I brew lagers. I have used San Francisco lager yeast ( cold ) which is great because it’s available year round and I like the flavour/character it brings. I don’t like 34/70, lots of people love it but I’m not a fan at all.

It really comes down to personal preference.

I’d love to try the Rocky Mountain lager from wyeast but it’s hard to get here

 

[ba-brewer]

WLP833 Bock Lager was my first go to lager yeast, consistent performance and easy to repitch. Worked well for beers with late hops.

WLP835 Lager X is my go to german lager yeast now, it is cleaner(less sulfur) than WLP833 but I think it mutes hops a little. It is a seasonal but I keep it on slants.

I also like wyeast danish lager yeast and WLP815 belgian lager, less sulfur than WLP833 and have a light ester flavor(the non skunky part of heineken or grolsch). I think they allow hops to come though too. Also seasonal yeasts.

One more seasonal WLP845 Fast Lager, similar to WLP833 or WLP835 as far as flavor but clears faster.

 

[Immocles]

On Topic:
I can't brew lagers from April-ish to December due to temperature, but I can lager the hell out of things in the first three months of the year. Whenever I cold ferment a lager with 34/70, its noticeably different from when I try a pseudo lager in the summer/fall with notty (which to me, is an extremely clean ale yeast). Both wildly enjoyable, but just...different. Do some of my friends know the difference between them? Probably not, but there is a definite tangible difference. I havent tried the 34/70 warm fermented yet. I have intended to, but I'm afraid I will be disappointed in the resulting beer...

Off topic:
I'm cheap, and generally stick to fresh pitches of dry yeast. Hows the consensus of S189 vs 34/70? I havent used 189 yet, but planning it in a dopplebock this winter.

 

[mashpaddled]

If you enjoy the beers you make then who really cares what anybody would call it.

I think beers brewed with lager yeast have a particular feel and taste. You can make very clear, clean beers with all sorts of yeast but they don't taste exactly the same. That's fine but if you are trying to strictly replicate a bock with ale yeast or kveik you're only going to get so close. Maybe close enough to satisfy your interest, which is totally fine.

 

[shoreman]

I think traditional lagers in homebrewing as well as small craft in the US are suffering from the same issues that traditional sours and lambics are with kettle sours.

You might get something close and palatable by cutting corners with an ale yeast or kveik strain, but it will never have the depth of a true lager yeast.

Times and customers are changing, but I think the traditions will weather that storm.

 

[dbsmith]

I remember one time early in my hobby, when I gave someone an ale I had created with S-05 that I thought was just "ok", but before they drank it they quit drinking beer due to health issues. I found the beer in the back of the fridge, perhaps a year or so later and decided to try it. I just remember pouring it and the yeast did not move at all from the bottom of the bottle. The beer poured was the clearest beer I have ever made. I just remember being amazed at how clear it was and how clean the flavor was. I never thought to compare it to a lager, but I wish I did. This was many years ago, so I can't recall the flavor profile. I just remember everything being completely 'integrated'.

 

[BrewZer]

I think those who dismiss the complexity of lagering as "just" temperature control are overlooking the effort required in maintaining lower fermentation and long-term storage temperatures. I for one am not in a position to buy a glycol chiller, nor do I want to be adding ice to a cooler full of recirculated water for two-to-four weeks at a time. That's effort, and one of the things that turns people off about homebrewing is the amount of effort it takes to get a beer from grain to bottle/keg.

On OP's existential crisis at hand, I think Wyeast 2112 is about as close to a portal between lagers and ales as we're going to find. Find a combination of grains and hops that you like, then buy it, use it, drink the results and be happy.

Or you can buy the chillers/coolers/pumps/freezers/temperature controllers/carboys/racking canes/siphon pumps/etc. and have at it like the braumeisters* of old (who, ironically, waited for the right weather to chill the caves/cellars to the right temperatures and let nature do all the work for them).

That's the beauty of homebrewing... whether you're a kit assembler, extract explorer, all-grain growler guzzler or a hop monster manufacturer, there's something out there you'll like and can brew with the level of effort you can afford and/or are comfortable expending.

* I use this term generically, not intending to ignore or diminish those of the female persuasion who happen to participate and partake in the craft

 

[30_Ounce]

Lager yeast ferment maltotriose, ale yeast doesn't or at least it does it at a much slower rate. I don't think you can get a complete lager character with ale yeast, it's more complex than that.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I think traditional lagers in homebrewing as well as small craft in the US are suffering from the same issues that traditional sours and lambics are with kettle sours.

Or porter, for that matter. Poor porter...

As for the issue at hand, my taste buds aren't the most acute. I sometimes am a bit bemused when folks debate the merits of various lager yeast strains. I get that there are differences, but at the end of the day they all make lager beer.

The same can't be said for pseudo, or even warm fermented lagers. I've made some very passable pseudo lagers, and I've had some very impressive commercially made pseudo lagers, but at the end of day, these ales are remarkable for being akin to lagers, not actual lagers. If a guy with pretty lousy taste buds, like me, can pick them out, well...

Ultimately, it's not for us to decide. The candy-in-a-can loving beer drinkers will figure it out for us.

 

[McKnuckle]

chillers/coolers/pumps/freezers/temperature controllers/carboys/racking canes/siphon pumps/etc.

I don't think it's that daunting. Most lager brewing equipment is de rigueur for serious hobbyist homebrewers. All you need is reliable temp control that fits your fermenter, and good cold side oxygen avoidance techniques. Stainless steel is the best material for fermenters. And using kegs for closed transfers, long term storage, and serving is ideal, although bottles can be made to work with extra effort and arguably shorter shelf life.

As with other types of brewing, patience is the most complex piece of gear to acquire and operate, and that is needed in large amounts to make lager.

 

[Vale71]

Lager yeast ferment maltotriose, ale yeast doesn't or at least it does it at a much slower rate. I don't think you can get a complete lager character with ale yeast, it's more complex than that.

Both yeasts ferment maltotriose in the same manner. I couldn't agree more with the second part of your statement though.

 

[Bramling Cross]

As with other types of brewing, patience is the most complex piece of gear to acquire and operate, and that is needed in large amounts to make lager.

While it's no substitute for patience, a second fermenter sure helps.

 

[shoreman]

I stayed away from brewing lagers for the longest time until I realized you just have to pay attention to the temps for the strain.

I brew lagers only in the winter months here in New England - no temp control but my basement stays in the 45-60 range depending on the year. I’ve had excellent results with:

Bayern Lager by omega
S23
W34
S189

and this year I’m focusing in German Lager 1 by omega.

I just pitch a good amount of yeast and it’s done in 2-3 weeks, kegged and carbed and then sits in my garage lagering at 30-40 degrees.

 

[seatazzz]

I've been doing WF lagers for over three years now, with various yeast strains; and have had eminent success. To me, what defines a "lager" is that 'bite' you get from the yeast. It's hard to describe, but adds a certain flavor to a beer that ales just don't have. I've had the best luck with Lallemand Diamond and S23, with some S189 thrown in because I couldn't get the other two. I won a silver medal with a WF lager done on S23, that the judges couldn't tell apart from a "traditionally" fermented cold lager. The key, here, is cold aging (aka lagering) in the keg or the bottle. Yeast makes a lager, not process, nor grain bill; just the yeast and how you ferment it.

 

[Snuffy]

I remember one time early in my hobby, when I gave someone an ale I had created with S-05 that I thought was just "ok", but before they drank it they quit drinking beer due to health issues. I found the beer in the back of the fridge, perhaps a year or so later and decided to try it. I just remember pouring it and the yeast did not move at all from the bottom of the bottle. The beer poured was the clearest beer I have ever made. I just remember being amazed at how clear it was and how clean the flavor was. I never thought to compare it to a lager, but I wish I did. This was many years ago, so I can't recall the flavor profile. I just remember everything being completely 'integrated'.

I brewed an extract Williams tripel at a friend's house in Jan of 2001. He was digging out all his old Grolsch clamp-tops for me since he doesn't brew anymore and found a bottle of the tripel we had missed- in 2018. We stared at it for a while and then.. we drank it, of course, and it was the driest, most complex ale flavor I have ever experienced. Still carbonated. Would not recommend a 17 year room-temp aging process for ales, but that was interesting for sure.

 

[marc1]

I think those who dismiss the complexity of lagering as "just" temperature control are overlooking the effort required in maintaining lower fermentation and long-term storage temperatures. I for one am not in a position to buy a glycol chiller, nor do I want to be adding ice to a cooler full of recirculated water for two-to-four weeks at a time. That's effort, and one of the things that turns people off about homebrewing is the amount of effort it takes to get a beer from grain to bottle/keg.

On OP's existential crisis at hand, I think Wyeast 2112 is about as close to a portal between lagers and ales as we're going to find. Find a combination of grains and hops that you like, then buy it, use it, drink the results and be happy.

Or you can buy the chillers/coolers/pumps/freezers/temperature controllers/carboys/racking canes/siphon pumps/etc. and have at it like the braumeisters* of old (who, ironically, waited for the right weather to chill the caves/cellars to the right temperatures and let nature do all the work for them).

That's the beauty of homebrewing... whether you're a kit assembler, extract explorer, all-grain growler guzzler or a hop monster manufacturer, there's something out there you'll like and can brew with the level of effort you can afford and/or are comfortable expending.

* I use this term generically, not intending to ignore or diminish those of the female persuasion who happen to participate and partake in the craft

I completely agree that brewing process should be tailored to your preferences! That's what it is all about.

Glycol chillers and coolers of ice are pricy or work intensive methods of temp control. A freebie beater fridge, an inkbird, and a heat belt gives high ease of use with low cost. Not everyone has the room for this, and I'm sure some people don't like the appearance of beater fridges. Ours has been handy to also store extra food sometimes. But there are relatively easy and inexpensive ways to do it.

 

[bwible]

I regularly make “pseudo lagers” by following basically a lager recipe (pilsener malt and a little light munich, Tettnang, Hersbrucker, Saaz) but fermenting with an ale yeast. Cold crash when fermentation is complete. I’ve also found that adding gelatin at the end of fermentation along with the cold crash makes a huge difference in clarity. Age cold in a keg for a couple weeks. The last one I did with 1098. I think 1098 makes a decent blonde ale. I tend to split whatever yeast I’m using for other beers, within reason.

The resulting beer is lager-like and I sure enjoy drinking it. But I still call this a blonde ale and I have no delusions about fooling anybody into thinking this is some kind of award winning lager. I would by no means put something brewed this way up against any German Lager. Or even any of the big commercial US lagers many love to hate. Not the same.

I’d love to make “real” lager, but I don’t have a fermentation chamber with any kind of temp control to get to 50-55 degrees for lagers. And I already have a kegerator and a commercial beer fridge loaded with bottles. Can’t imagine the wife would be crazy about me buying and running another fridge for beer. I have thought about that angle of trying to get a chest freezer and playing it as extra storage. Our freezer is always full. But I can’t sell it as extra freezer storage when its 50 degrees.

I’ve never used kviek yeast. Don’t know the first thing about it. I remember as a newbie brewer way back when trying the steam beer yeast to make something like lager. But then you just get steam beer.

 

[VikeMan]

Lager yeast ferment maltotriose, ale yeast doesn't or at least it does it at a much slower rate. I don't think you can get a complete lager character with ale yeast, it's more complex than that.

There are very few ale strains that don't use maltotriose. The overwhelming majority use maltotriose in varying amounts, just like lager strains do. The relative use of matotriose is normally the factor that drives different attenuation for different yeast strains. There are some ale strains that attenuate more than the average lager strain, and vice versa.

 

[couchsending]

Saccharomyces pastorianus has the ability to ferment melibiose.. S. Cerevisiae doesn’t. It’s been determined recently that certain “lager“ strains are actually Cerevisiae however.

Brewed lots of lager and kolsch. You can’t replicate true lager character with ale yeast at ale temps. I’ve fermented a few ale yeast at 54-56 for some Kolschs and the beers, while squeaky clean, still don’t possess true lager characteristics. Personally not a fan of lots of sulphur in my lagers. I used some variant of the Andech’s yeast for the entirety of 2020 for that reason.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Yes, I have. Both commercial and home brewed. I was unimpressed.

I replicate the same techniques (single or double decoction) and cold condition so maybe that makes my brews feel more "real" to me taste.

I find that most german lagers have a kind of banana grainy note, like banana covered granola, and through the decoction and the use of Skare, most of my brews end up with this note too and with the same body as a lager, they don't look as clear and never would because Skare has a low flocc strain in it so it'd need too much time and I only have cold space for one fermenter at a time so that's a no no for me.

If I ever have the space to brew the real deal I will obviously do so, but for now, what I achieve has made me stop buying german lagers for now

 

[Dland]

Just to add in;

I made a Pilsner malt SMASH this summer w Cascade & US-05, fermented at 65F. I crashed and let it rest at 30F for a few weeks. It was a darn good beer and all 10 gallons are long gone.

Made the same brew this fall w 34/70 at 54F crashed and let to lager at 30F for 4 weeks, it is so good (I still marvel how good my lagers sometimes come out) I hold it to the light, see it sparkling clear and say: "'darn' this is good."

I like almost all well made beer, but a good lager is sometimes hard to find. Glad I can make it.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Every other beer I make is a pale lager. I also make cream ales from time to time using a clean yeast, low ish fermentation temps, and extended cold storage before I drink it. Both good, but a surprising amount different. I'd definitely pick the lagers as my favorite.

 

[McKnuckle]

I wonder how our OP is doing standing at his crossroads. Has the existential crisis been resolved yet?

It appears that consensus has it that true lagers are alive and well, and are uniquely different from alternate approaches that approximate, but never quite duplicate, their essence.

As it should be.

 

[schmurf]

Sort of entertaining thread about lager vs ale... sort of sad too, never cease to amaze me how rude people can get on the web. What is a Kolsch Style

Ron Pattinson trying to explain what a lager is.

 

[Brewsit]

I’ve been sitting in the shadows watching this develop... didn’t want to get in the way

I like a lot of the points that have been made... that there’s something special achieved by using the right strain for the right beer... I have a Munich Helles lagering right now that I pulled a sample of the other day... still cloudy but has just amazing body and flavor. I don’t know that I could get the same from using the “wrong” yeast.

I think the best way to describe it would be multi-dimensional vs 1 dimensional...