Examining possible solutions to issue of sulfur smell from Perlick 650ss faucets

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agrazela

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There are many testimonials on the web regarding a sulfur smell coming out in the beer on the first pull of the day when using Perlick 650ss flow-control faucets. I assure you, it is not a myth, it is real.

(Just Google keywords like “Perlick 650ss sulfur” to see.)

Some think it’s due to using the flow control as a “shut-off” valve, creating a (partial) air pocket between the compensator and the lever ball in which residual beer can get “funky.” Others believe the issue arises from the use of a different grade of stainless (perhaps free-machining 303 grade) on certain internal parts of the 650ss than the 304 grade that is (presumably) used for the main body of the faucet.

I originally thought it was the air pocket issue, as I was using the flow control as a shut-off, and getting the strong sulfur the next day. I stopped doing that, and the issue didn’t return the next day, hooray!
But then I left the faucets for three days with the flow control in the “halfway” position, and the sulfur was back in spades. So now I’m investigating the different grade of stainless theory.

A little about the difference between 304 and 303 stainless grades: both are similar high-chromium, non-magnetic, austentitic grades; but 303 has manganese sulfide (MnS) added, which forms small pockets or “stringers,” which makes the material easier to machine since these stringers allow chips to come off easier. But the typical nitric acid stainless steel passivation procedure allows redeposition of sulfur on the surface of 303 stainless:
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/307089.pdf

And as indicated in that paper and elsewhere, there apparently are alternative passivation methods for 303 that do NOT create sulfur redeposition:
https://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1566

So maybe some of the internal parts of the 650ss are being made from 303 grade stainless, and maybe those parts are not being passivated correctly for the grade. And then that redeposited sulfur is partially dissolving into the beer—especially when it sits in the faucet for an extended time.

I can’t find anyone who has claimed this sulfur smell on the 630ss faucet. So if it is an issue with an internal part that touches beer, and if the 650ss main body IS made from 304 stainless, then the issue must be with a part (or parts) that is not common between the two faucet models; which means it must be the handle lever (Item 5A), flow compensator (Item 9) and/or the steel “barrel” of the flow control (part of Item 11) in this diagram:
https://www.perlick.com/files/8414/0423/2648/Forward_sealing_faucets_-_spec_sheet.pdf

Now I also can’t find anyone who has reported the sulfur issue on a 680ss or 690ss, but I’m not sure how common these creamer-function faucets are, so I’m not sure if that’s any kind of clue; but I do know that the ONLY part that is both internal (touches beer) AND is exclusive to the 650ss is the handle lever (Item 5A, part number 68626-1). And this is the part that most testimonials I’ve come across suspect to be the culprit.

Of course, to confound things, there are people who respond in many of the sulfur-smell threads who say they use 650ss faucets and have never gotten the smell. Maybe they drink so much that their faucets don’t sit long enough to develop it. Or maybe they got units from production runs where the lever was passivated properly. Or maybe—and this is what I believe—they disassembled their 650ss’s and soaked all the parts in Star San (which contains phosphoric acid) before ever putting them into service, and according to the gov’t paper linked earlier phosphoric acid dip is a main part of an alternative passivation option for 303 and may well have gotten rid of the surface deposited sulfur.

(NOTE: I did disassemble, clean, and sanitize my faucets before use…but I did NOT use Star San, I used a sanitizer from the lab I work in that is neither acid or alkaline-based.)

And it is logical to ask, “if the 650ss lever is made from 303 grade stainless, why wouldn’t the 630ss faucet also use 303 for the lever?” Well, maybe they do—probably they do, it only makes sense. But being that these are different part numbers (part number 68726-1 for the 630ss), perhaps the lever for the 630ss is made in an entirely different factory that DOES do the correct passivation procedure. Or, just as likely in my mind, all these parts are made in the same factory, but someone fouled up when writing up the manufacturing specs for the 650ss lever and included the wrong passivation procedure. In my work experience, stuff like that does happen...a LOT!

SO, I did an experiment. I pulled the levers from my three 650ss faucets. And they did smell strongly like rotten eggs. I took a cue from that gov’t paper where they suggest that improperly passivated 303 stainless can be remedied by soaking the parts in 5% NaOH at 70°C for 30 minutes, followed by a detergent wash, a water rinse, and a wipe with isopropyl alcohol. I did that procedure in the lab, reinstalled the levers and…

The sulfur smell was greatly diminished, but it was NOT gone.

So maybe I didn’t get it all. Or maybe there are OTHER parts in this faucet that cause the smell…or for that matter, maybe my stainless shanks and/or tailpieces are made from 303 that was not properly passivated; some shanks are apparently made from 303:
https://www.perlick.com/bar-beverag...dispensing/tapping-hardwarecomponents/shanks/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0197THUJI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Or maybe—and this is what I think is likely—surface sulfur from the 650ss lever got partly dissolved in beer and was re-deposited elsewhere inside the faucet (and maybe inside the shank, too).

So if it is true (or even just possible) that sulfur is now all over the insides, then short of buying new parts, that leaves me with only the “nuclear” option: I’ve got to fully treat my shank, tailpiece and all internal faucet parts. (As well as give a good cleaning to all the rubber parts that may have touched beer.)

I’ve got three 650ss faucets, so I figure I’ll try three separate treatments:
1) Soak all the relevant parts in Star San (or more accurately, my best-guess lab-concocted simulation of Star San based on MSDS info).
2) Clean the rubber parts, but totally re-passivate all the stainless parts using the alkaline/citric acid/alkaline method from the cartech site linked earlier.
3) Select a treatment you’d like to see tried…post ‘em up!

These processes will be documented in future posts in this thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting note: if you go to Perlick's website looking for replacement parts, both 630ss and 650ss list the same part number for the handle lever (p/n 68726), a similar part number to that which the 630ss lists in the Perlick diagram previously linked (p/n 68726-1) :

https://www.perlick.com/store/webcat...ctno=1&grpno=2

So either there's a typo in the diagram listing the 650ss parts (in which case, how come no reports of sulfur in the 630ss? Maybe it is the compensator?), or Perlick made a later (very recent?) change, dropping the 68626-x part number.

----------------

EDIT: more fuel for the fire: this site lists a Perlick handle lever part number 68626-1 for only $6.01, though none are in stock (and it's listed as being for 630pc???):
http://www.partstown.com/perlick/pe68626-1

And a part number 68726-1 also for $6.01, and also none actually in stock:
http://www.partstown.com/perlick/pe68726-1

And also a part number 68726 which specifically states "304ss" and IS in stock, though for a cool $22.82:
http://www.partstown.com/perlick/pe68726

All of that leads me to believe that Perlick HAS made part number changes/updates, presumably quite recently, and perhaps to deal with this issue.

(Good on them for this apparent "silent fix"; though it does not address the issue that "original" 650ss faucets may well be unacceptable for their intended use as manufactured. A fix offer-- or at least some research into a DIY treatment/fix for owners like I'm trying to do--would be nice)
 
Thanks for pursuing this. I bought 6 perlick faucets for my new setup, 2 of them flow control (for my wheat beer and soda water). Both flow controls put off a sulfur smell. First couple ozs need to be pitched. Even if you diluted enough to not taste, the sulfur smell is still detectable in the glass which is not something I care to serve my guests. Perlick should be offering to fix these. These aren't cheap faucets and I expect much better customer service. Subscribed to keep up with your results, thanks!

Edit: Apparently things have changed since last year and I'll give Perlick the benefit of the doubt that early on they too had to research if it was a problem that was not isolated and needed to be addressed. I called Perlick today and the guy I got was aware of the problem. He took my info and I sent proof of purchase info. I'll keep you posted of my end result.
 
I can appreciate a thorough investigation into a problem as much as anyone, but if you're looking for the best SOLUTION to this problem, I suggest contacting Perlick. If they are aware of the problem - and it sounds like they are - they will either make it right with you or tell you what to do about it. I wouldn't wait around for them to do either of those two things without contacting them.
 
And I suggest, since it will cost me only a few days and no money and since I am an empiricist, first knowing from my own experience what the issue is, instead of:
  • Relying on internet posts (ironically)
  • Not being armed with enough knowledge to keep from being deflected from the issue at hand by the manufacturer, which is, in my experience with manufacturers in general, what I expect.

Perhaps they already do have a DIY home-fix. Be nice to know if it jives with experience.
On the other hand, if I do get the kind of response I expect, which would at best be some form of: "blah, blah, blah...buy new parts!" perhaps I'll have found a way to fix it myself (and spread the word) instead.

(Yes, I am a cynic. I have worked at and do work for a company. I know how companies operate.)

Maybe I'll be surprised and they'll just ship me out some spankin' new 304ss parts. I'd still have needed to know why. I always need to know why!

--------------------

EDIT: OK, I called Perlick. The first time I sat on hold 10 minutes before getting to talk to anyone. The second and third times I got cut off during transfers. I think I'll go back to the lab bench now.
 
Fourth time I got through, decided to eat my lunch during the 20 minutes hold.

Tech service guy knows nothing about it except "don't run highly acidic beers through the 650ss, that causes the sulfur smell." He does not know the mechanism. He doesn't know what the faucets or any of the parts are made of. He has no service bulletins or anything on it. He knows of no fix. Even went to consult with others, same story.

Definitely going back to the lab bench.
 
Since I work for a manufacturing company, I can tell you we are "thrilled" (but without the helpful sarcasm) when a customer is able to identify in specific detail what isn't working with one of our products. No one wants a customer to mess up anything that would affect our ability to do our own analysis, but since exact environmental conditions cant always be replicated analysis and details provided by customers are often crucial to determining (1) What is wrong (2) What corrective action is required.
Does Perlick know exactly what's wrong? Is it possible there are health concerns of anything else besides sulfer smell/taste getting in my beer? Don't know. Maybe most people don't care as long as the smell goes away. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to explore the issue yourself, and I think it does provide useful feedback to a company who most likely is having them manufactured to a specification on a drawing.

I did get a case # when I called and was told not to run acidic things like cider through. They acted like it would be looked at and addressed. I'll post what eventual solution they offer.
 
OK, so enough with the speculation, conspiracy theories and investigative journalism, let’s get our hands dirty (well actually, clean!)

Treatment Test 1: Hoping this will be something easy that anyone could do with nothing more than Star San.

I made an “analog” of Star San. According to the MSDS/SDS, Star San contains:
• 50% of 75% phosphoric acid
• 15% Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid (a surfactant)
• 10% Isopropyl alcohol
http://www.jstrack.org/brewing/msds/starsan.pdf

I have 75% food grade phosphoric, 70% IPA, and a surfactant product called Micro-90 in the lab:
https://www.veterinary-instrumentation.co.uk/skin1/admin/UserFiles/File/MICRO 90 MSDS.pdf

So I whipped up this formula:
• 50% of 75% phosphoric acid
• 15% of Micro-90 (which does contain the same surfactant, plus a few others)
• 15% of 70% isopropyl alcohol
• 20% distilled water

[See Pic01]

And made a dilution of 3.12mL in 2L, as per this calculator:
http://www.calczilla.com/brewing/sanitizer-dilution/
(That calculator by the way agrees with the 1oz per 5gal recommendation from the manufacturer, so I guess 3.12mL per 2L is OK)

Comes out to pH 2.73, which is <3.0 as recommended according to:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/star-san

[See Pic02]

All the parts that I believe contact the beer (man this thing has a lot of seals!):

[See Pic03]

And parts that likely don’t contact beer, but I’m going to soak anyway:

[See Pic04]

And all of them soaking at room temperature in my Star San analog dilution:

[See Pic05]

Over the first two hours, I periodically pulled out each piece and gave it a good sniff. The handle lever was the only piece that I could consistently point to and say, “that smells STRONGLY of sulfur.”

[See Pic06]

After about 3 hours, the entire solution smelled so strongly of sulfur I was starting to get nose-blind, so I rinsed all the parts in distilled water, made up a fresh 2L dilution of Star San analog, and transferred all the parts to that.

And 3 more hours later (6 hours in total) again the entire solution smells of sulfur, and the lever handle smells really strongly, even after a rinse in DI water. I certainly can’t put this faucet back into service like this.

This lever handle seems to have a lot of sulfur to give, and I'm just not getting it all. I’m going to make another 2L of dilution and soak all parts except the lever handle in that overnight (to get rid of any sulfur residue that may have transferred to them!). For the lever handle, I’m going to make 100mL of 1:1 dilution of the Star San analog to distilled water—this should be ~18.75% phosphoric acid, slightly stronger than the 15% phosphoric recommended in that gov’t paper linked previously—and soak overnight.

650ssPic01.jpg


650ssPic02.jpg


650ssPic03.jpg


650ssPic04.jpg


650ssPic05.jpg


650ssPic06.jpg
 
day_trippr said:
Did you get any clarification on the part number for the 650 faucet lever?
I expect that it does indeed use the same lever as the 630 after all, but it would be useful (I think?) to get that confirmed...

Cheers!
Click to expand...

No I didn't, I did not get into anything beyond asking if they knew why the sulfur smell occurred and whether there was a fix for it.

(Well, I did ask why my regular-pH, not particularly "low"-pH, pale ale made sulfur smell on the 650ss, and why that same beer does not cause a sulfur smell in a plastic picnic tap if, as they stated, the beer is the CAUSE of the smell, but these questions were far too perplexing)

I am surprised they did not bring up the part number and try to sell me some...actually I'm not surprised, that'd sound like an admission of a problem.
 
Two corrections: (forum not letting me edit posts right now, have to make a new post)

1) I should have said that Micro 90 has a surfactant similar to that in Star San, not the same as.

2) After one more distilled water rinse, I swear I'm now smelling strong sulfur on not just the lever handle, but also the compensator and the metal "barrel" of the compensator handle...in other words, ALL the internal metal parts that are unique to the 650ss vs the 630ss. So I'm making three separate 100mL 1:1 dilutions of Star San analog : distilled water and soaking each individually overnight.

Indeed, in the 2 minutes it took to type this, I'm getting VERY strong sulfur smell--rich, deep, "room-clearing" (if you catch my drift) sulfur-- from each of the three beakers. I may have to store these under the fume hood.
 
Wow this is very informative. Thank you for the diligence.

I have 5 650SS, which were purchased as a group of three, then a group of 2, from the same vendor but at different times, and have never smelled sulfur. The first three have been in service for at least a few months and the last two for at least a month. I have a brown ale, and a pale ale in the younger two, and a Yuengling clone (now blonde ale), wheat, and a pumpkin (now stout) in the older three.

I do remember hearing about this issue but then forgot about it. I will keep an eye on them and this thread. Good luck and thanks again!
 
BrunDog said:
Wow this is very informative. Thank you for the diligence.

I have 5 650SS, which were purchased as a group of three, then a group of 2, from the same vendor but at different times, and have never smelled sulfur. The first three have been in service for at least a few months and the last two for at least a month. I have a brown ale, and a pale ale in the younger two, and a Yuengling clone (now blonde ale), wheat, and a pumpkin (now stout) in the older three.

I do remember hearing about this issue but then forgot about it. I will keep an eye on them and this thread. Good luck and thanks again!
Click to expand...

Say, can you check the lot codes on the bottoms of your faucets? One of mine says "A0815G" and two of them say "A0915G". I wonder if that's a MMYY date code?

20160310_173747.jpg
 
Not home right now but will do when I get there.

By the way, there is no way that Perlick does not know this is an issue. If they recommend avoiding low pH beer, they know about the problem. That's just lousy customer service and I say we leverage this forum to get them to own up and remedy the problem. I certainly appreciate your willingness to experiment, but that's not something you should need to do for a "quality" product you paid quality dollars for.
 
BrunDog said:
Not home right now but will do when I get there.

By the way, there is no way that Perlick does not know this is an issue. If they recommend avoiding low pH beer, they know about the problem. That's just lousy customer service and I say we leverage this forum to get them to own up and remedy the problem. I certainly appreciate your willingness to experiment, but that's not something you should need to do for a "quality" product you paid quality dollars for.
Click to expand...

Could not have said any of that better myself.
 
I just installed 5 of these last weekend and I haven't noticed a sulfur smell either. I'll keep on the the lookout though.
 
agrazela said:
Can you check the lot codes on yours, too?
Click to expand...

A0515G All 5 from more beer purchased a little over a week ago. I'm not serving sours or ciders. I have a dark mild, Czech pilsner, blonde ale, stout and coconut porter on tap.
 
This lot code thing is intriguing me. I think I should start a new thread on it to try to collect all that info in one place.

(I hope you guys don't mind re-posting your info there)
 
BrunDog said:
By the way, there is no way that Perlick does not know this is an issue. If they recommend avoiding low pH beer, they know about the problem. That's just lousy customer service and I say we leverage this forum to get them to own up and remedy the problem. I certainly appreciate your willingness to experiment, but that's not something you should need to do for a "quality" product you paid quality dollars for.
Click to expand...

+1 to this. I too think Perlick knows about the problem and I think these experiments probably won't tell them much that they don't already know. But I appreciate the desire of the OP to get to the root of the problem.

I too work for a mfr and one of the biggest factors in how we respond to a problem is how many complaints we've received. 1 complaint = probably a fluke. 100 complaints = we need to do something about it.

I have 1 650ss with no sulfur smell issues. But if it did, I would demand a replacement or repair kit from Perlick. I know it can be time consuming and frustrating getting through to the right person, but I wouldn't give up. Good luck.
 
My lot codes are A0115G and A0215G. Looking at other posts I'm inclined to think the numbers are MMYY too.

The increasing sulfur smell with a starsan makes me nervous. Agrazela (and anyone else with a knowledge of chemistry and/or metallurgy) do you feel comfortable that nothing unwanted is leaching into our beer? In my mind food grade stainless and components should NOT be having this issue.
 
CascadeOK said:
My lot codes are A0115G and A0215G. Looking at other posts I'm inclined to think the numbers are MMYY too.

The increasing sulfur smell with a starsan makes me nervous. Agrazela (and anyone else with a knowledge of chemistry and/or metallurgy) do you feel comfortable that nothing unwanted is leaching into our beer? In my mind food grade stainless and components should NOT be having this issue.
Click to expand...

From my reading of items linked earlier in this thread, my theory is that there is sulfur deposited on the surfaces of these (suspected) 303ss parts, likely from improper passivation procedure (and that is looking possibly like a lot-to-lot issue). I think (hope!) all that needs to happen is that this surface sulfur needs to be got rid of (hopefully through simple acid dip), and THEN they'll be fit for service.
 
-TH- said:
+1 to this. I too think Perlick knows about the problem and I think these experiments probably won't tell them much that they don't already know. But I appreciate the desire of the OP to get to the root of the problem.

I too work for a mfr and one of the biggest factors in how we respond to a problem is how many complaints we've received. 1 complaint = probably a fluke. 100 complaints = we need to do something about it.

I have 1 650ss with no sulfur smell issues. But if it did, I would demand a replacement or repair kit from Perlick. I know it can be time consuming and frustrating getting through to the right person, but I wouldn't give up. Good luck.
Click to expand...

I agree Perlick must know. If AIB is to be believed (and I believe them), it's PROVEN that they've known of an issue for at least 9 months. Their denial of my issue on the phone to me is why I'm not going to let up or give any benefit of the doubt.

And what they probably know is that a fix would involve all three of these parts (handle lever, compensator, and barrel of the flow control handle device) re-machined out of 304ss (or re-made of 303ss with proper passivation) and decided that ignoring and/or denying the problem is hella cheaper (in the short term, anyway) than fixing it. And that developing some sort of "DIY fix" for owners to do is an admission of a problem, so that's out, too.

AND if I may further speculate...they probably decided that since these faucets were going to be designed specifically for beer (not wine or cider), why not save a few pennies per unit and use 303ss for these parts? Maybe further cheap out on manufacturing and not specify proper passivation (or go with factories that cut corners)? Except that they forgot about low-pH beers (sours, hefe's, etc.). And also it turns out that even "normal" pH beers (APA, IPA, etc.) are causing issues, at least with some (lots of) 650ss faucets, like the ones I have.

BTW -TH-, what's your lot code?
 
My experience with star san and nitrile rubber matches the sulfur (rotten egg) aroma you've been experiencing.

Place 1 nitrile rubber glove in a glass jar (like the blue one you're wearing in the photo) and spray some star san on it. Wait like 5 seconds and take a whiff (you'll smell it very well). Now seal, wait 5 minutes and take a whiff (it might knock you out :D).

The most common o-ring material is Buna-N (the 'N' standing for nitrile), and I'm assuming that's what's used in perlicks. Those flow control seem to have a lot of o-rings/nitrile in them. Couple those o-rings with star san (or perhaps just very low pH solution), and you get rotten eggs.

In addition, it's possible that you've been unknowingly contaminating your experiments by wearing the gloves to do your work. Next time try using metal tongs or forceps instead - just to see.

A possible solution to the perlick tap issue: How about buying some silicone replacement o-rings and see if you still get the rotten egg smell. A test at least.
 
OK so next morning, if I had to rank the strength of sulfur smell coming off the beakers of the three parts being soaked in 1:1 Star San anlog : distilled water from strongest to weakest, it would be:

Compensator, closely followed by handle lever, and flow control barrel a distant third. (But in all three cases, VERY definitely sulfur-y)

The parts do not appear to be damaged or discolored in any way. I rinsed the parts in distilled water, and laid them out to air dry for the rest of the day (Pic 08) in case the chromium needs to re-oxidize. If there is still any sulfur odor on the rinsed parts, it's very, very faint. Or I can't tell because I'm getting nose-blind to sulfur at the moment. I'll sniff them again periodically throughout the day and report if I get anything.

All the other parts in the dilute Star San analog I also rinsed in distilled water and laid out to air dry.

I think this faucet may be ready to be re-assemble and put back into service to test whether it is fixed...that of course will be monitored over days (or weeks).

650ssPic08.jpg
 
I would normally be inclined to not believe the stainless parts are the issue, but if your acid soaks produce sulfur, then sure enough they are. The practical question is... Can you get the sulfur out enough to be below the smell and taste threshold?
 

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