equipment issue?

[Dextersmom]

Hey everyone...extremely long time since last post here.

over the last year I made the change from extract to all grain. I've had limited success. I've very much so refined my process and technique. no longer missing mash temps and been able to keep ph around 5.2. The equipment I'm using right now is SSbrewtech. Today I drew off a sample of one of the two batches I have going. While i've not yet hit terminal gravity, the taste seemed very abrasive. I'm extremely confused because the previous batch I put out was very pleasant in terms of flavor at this point.
the current batch is a NEIPA style where I used
10lbs golden promise
5lbs flaked oat
5lbs oat malt

mashed 1.025 gal/lb at exactly 152 degrees for an hour. batch sparged (efficiency was off quite a bit. 10 gal mash tun limited my overall volume. the first runnings resulted in about 3/4 my boil volume)

boiled for an hour and added 8oz (4eukanot, 4huell melon) hops at 180-160, whirlpooled for a half an hour and chilled down to ~65 very quickly (15min).

pitched a starter made with two packets giga vermont ale.

added high krausen hops ~day 3 (1 eukanot, 1 huell melon)
at 7 days added an additional dry hop (1 eukanot, 1 huell melon)

twice I stirred up the bottom of the chronical with some CO2 to redisperse the hops.

yesterday added the final hop addition (2oz eukanot, 2 huell melon)

whats confusing to me here is that I did a small 2.5 gal batch a month earlier which i fermented in one of my small carboys. same process, same temps, same water, different hops / grain bill. the result was incredible out of the sample I tasted at kegging and even better after it was carbed up.

I'm wondering if there is an equipment problem here (SS vs old school glass). My sanitation is the same as always. I cleaned all the SS way back when I first started with TSP and passivated with citric acid. I feel like there is something I'm missing for flavor to be off so much.

Am I just being impatient? will the profile change following a cold crash? this is especially concerning because other than my efficiency the day went off without a single hiccup.

my other batch that is currently going is a similar style only with lactose and fruit and in the 2.5 carboy...I suppose I'll find out if its an equipment issue when both are finalized.

but is there anything that anyone can suggest as to a reason this might be happening?
I've probably left a bunch of unanswered questions so fire away if there are any other questions.

Thanks in advance!

Kyle

 

[mongoose33]

"different hops / grain bill."

You can't compare two different batches that have different hops and grain bills, and expect them to taste the same. That said, patience is always a virtue. And FWIW, I've never tasted a brew partway through with any expectations at all. What would you be expecting to taste in beer that is not done, hasn't had a chance to condition, isn't ready?

I don't brew NEIPAs, but I thought your grain bill looked....weird. Half the grain bill is Oat malt or flaked oats? I don't believe that oat malt has any diastatic power for converting the starch to sugar, and I don't think flaked oats does either. That means you need to use the diastatic power of the other malt to convert the oats. It's almost certainly why your efficiency is low. You'd have to go longer to ensure full conversion, probably need more water, and stir, stir, stir.

Where did you get that recipe from? I just looked up several NEIPA recipes and not one had more than 20 percent of the grain bill in Oat malt or flaked oats.

 

[Dextersmom]

I see what you're saying about diastatic power, but that wouldn't account for an abrasive flavor would it?
previous batch, while different ingredients didn't have any of this off flavor. that said maybe thats the problem with the efficiency. maybe I need to mash longer. I don't tend to over stir because I don't want to disrupt the temperature too much. I'll stir maybe 2-4 times during the hour.

 

[mongoose33]

I see what you're saying about diastatic power, but that wouldn't account for an abrasive flavor would it?
previous batch, while different ingredients didn't have any of this off flavor. that said maybe thats the problem with the efficiency. maybe I need to mash longer. I don't tend to over stir because I don't want to disrupt the temperature too much. I'll stir maybe 2-4 times during the hour.

I'm a scientist by training. When I see differences in technique, my immediate reaction if the outcome is different is to attribute that to the differences.

Maybe it's the difference in ingredients? Do you usually taste a batch partway through? This seems very odd to me. One of the things I didn't really believe in when I started brewing was that beer would condition and round out any sharp or green flavors. Yours might simply need that too.

I'm not sure what you were expecting; you have a grain bill that is way high on Oats, and that in itself might account for the "off" flavor. You didn't get complete conversion, so perhaps you're tasting a lot of starch. I don't know, I don't brew these types of beers.

What I'd do if I were you is find a recipe others have had success with, and try that. IMO, from what I've read about these NEIPA recipes, you have WAY too much in oats in that recipe. That in itself might be the basis of the "off" flavor. Another might be the hops, if you're using hops that are new to you. I don't care for Mosaic hops. If I have a beer that has a significant amount of Mosaic, I don't care for it. I can tell that it's the Mosaic, but if I wasn't thinking about that, I might mistake that flavor for an off flavor.

In short, I doubt it's your equipment. Sounds like you're pretty focused on sanitation, which is good, and for which reason I'd discount a contamination issue. Instead, I think what you're getting is a recipe issue.

And one last note: you said you used 1.025 quarts per pound; I'm guessing you meant 1.25? If it was 1.025, I'm guessing you must have had a fairly gloppy mess in the mash.

Anyway, good luck with it--my suggestion would be to try an established recipe, don't put any stock in how it tastes partway through, give it time to condition, then see where you're at.

 

[Dextersmom]

You're probably on point with the oats... The smaller batch had much less in terms of oat ratio. Was experimenting this time round... Although I did also do a kit a few batches ago that had a similar weirdness to it without the level of oats.
Yes I meant 1.25.
Well good advice. I'm usually patient. Since doing the all grain thing my patience has gone out the window... Not sure why.
Still not scheduled to keg until around the new year so we shall see.
Definitely good input, and now have some things to consider and focus on for next go round. Wish I could do smaller batches to dial things in instead of throwing it all in give gallons at a time.
Maybe a Pico is in my future...
Again thanks appreciate the suggestions!

 

[McKnuckle]

Just remember that suspended yeast and hop matter usually taste fairly disgusting. There is a reason why packaged beer, as opposed to wort or fermenting beer, does not typically contain those things. Using lots of late hops (16 oz??) and rousing material from the bottom of the fermenter seems absolutely in line with harsh flavors if sampled before clearing. So, I wouldn't do that.

There was actually a long thread here recently where a brewer was desperately trying to find the cause of his harsh tasting brew, and despite a red herring detour into equipment, the answer in the end was too much hop matter.

 

[Dextersmom]

Ah so the old rdwhahb might need to take place. Won't taste again until terminal is reached, it's crashed, and kegged.

 

[GHBWNY]

Lots of disturbed hops was also my thought. Esp. where OP stirred up bottom of conical TWICE "to redisperse hops". The "abrasive" flavor he describes sounds like the flavor of my initial gravity sample right after aerating the wort. Hops are all stirred up and it tastes terrible --- and that's sometimes only 2-3 oz. of hops, much less 16 oz.! I think he'll have good beer when enough time has elapsed for it to settle out. He needs to get a "Do Not Disturb" sign and hang it on his fermenter as a reminder from pitching until kegging.

 

[Dextersmom]

+1