English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

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Some folks might remember me asking about rye flavors in my "ESB". I'm happy to say that after all the past recipe changes made, it turned out that it was dropping the DRC Double Roasted Crystal that finally did it, the rye flavor is no longer there. It might be that no one else would have called it rye but it's what I perceived it to be. Whew, finally figured it out.

I had an actual Fuller's ESB on tap in a local "English" pub (Brit's, if anyone's ever been to Minneapolis). Funny, and not at all surprising, how it's different tasting than what I get in bottles. I had to somewhat recalibrate what I expected ESB to taste like. I'm a lot closer to the real thing than I used to think.
 
tracer bullet said:
I had an actual Fuller's ESB on tap in a local "English" pub (Brit's, if anyone's ever been to Minneapolis). Funny, and not at all surprising, how it's different tasting than what I get in bottles. I had to somewhat recalibrate what I expected ESB to taste like. I'm a lot closer to the real thing than I used to think.
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That's the reason I don't trust bottles any more, even though I can get them quite fresh in Germany. And even though Fuller's does not pasteurise. It still is quite different in flavour. And of course the bottle is a bit stronger in ABV.
 
Colindo said:
That's the reason I don't trust bottles any more, even though I can get them quite fresh in Germany. And even though Fuller's does not pasteurise. It still is quite different in flavour. And of course the bottle is a bit stronger in ABV.
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Where do you get fresh bottles in Germany?

The tap Vs. Bottle difference is like they are two completely different beers to my palate. I love the tap version. The bottled version is just meh to me.
 
Miraculix said:
Where do you get fresh bottles in Germany?
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Our homebrew club in Düsseldorf meets in a shop for British beers. Not only can I get the standard stuff that is imported by One Pint, they also sometimes import beers of their own. In August they even invited a few British brewers along with their beers. I had a great talk with the manager of Wold Top Breweries about their Marmelade Porter, which tastes amazing from the bottle.
 
Quoting from a Facebook post I made back then.
Today they got a new delivery and had the brewery's manager there, so I asked him about their amazing Marmelade Porter. Here's what I got:

Grain bill: They use 8% Chocolate Malt, 2% Roasted Barley, 10% Torrefied Oats and "some" Crystal Malt, maybe 5%? So that would leave 75% pale malt.

Hops: I forgot to ask about hopping, but I would assume some neutral bittering, maybe without any aroma hopping.

Yeast: They have a house strain that they changed for the last time five years ago when they switched to closed fermenters. They keep propagating it and are at generation #250 again already. The yeast is their own but he said that WLP007 would be a good substitution, mainly because it features the same orange character. They pitch at 18°C and let it free rise to 23°C. Fermentation usually finishes within three days!
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Colindo said:
Our homebrew club in Düsseldorf meets in a shop for British beers. Not only can I get the standard stuff that is imported by One Pint, they also sometimes import beers of their own. In August they even invited a few British brewers along with their beers. I had a great talk with the manager of Wold Top Breweries about their Marmelade Porter, which tastes amazing from the bottle.
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You are a lucky man! I think here in Bremen nothing like this exists.
 
Miraculix said:
The yeast sounds like imperial pub to me.
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Nah, not at all. It would fusel like hell if let free to rise above 20°C and also the orange character was much cleaner than the complex honey-orange sweetness you get from Fuller's. As I said before Pub and Fuller's propagated from bottle tasted exactly the same to me.
I have not used WLP007 at warmer temperatures, but have heard of the orange flavour before. S-04 gives me a similar flavour, if I keep reusing it instead of using it in dry form.

Miraculix said:
You are a lucky man! I think here in Bremen nothing like this exists.
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You can order from them online. britische-biere.de. They still have some Wold Top and some Hobson's in stock, which are the two breweries with classic ales that they recently imported.
 
tracer bullet said:
Some folks might remember me asking about rye flavors in my "ESB". I'm happy to say that after all the past recipe changes made, it turned out that it was dropping the DRC Double Roasted Crystal that finally did it, the rye flavor is no longer there. It might be that no one else would have called it rye but it's what I perceived it to be. Whew, finally figured it out.

I had an actual Fuller's ESB on tap in a local "English" pub (Brit's, if anyone's ever been to Minneapolis). Funny, and not at all surprising, how it's different tasting than what I get in bottles. I had to somewhat recalibrate what I expected ESB to taste like. I'm a lot closer to the real thing than I used to think.
Click to expand...

Just wondering what percentage of the grist was the DRC as I might seek out that flavor. The rye comes across as licorice in any perceivable percentage for me, so maybe this would work for me?
 
Colindo said:
Nah, not at all. It would fusel like hell if let free to rise above 20°C and also the orange character was much cleaner than the complex honey-orange sweetness you get from Fuller's. As I said before Pub and Fuller's propagated from bottle tasted exactly the same to me.
I have not used WLP007 at warmer temperatures, but have heard of the orange flavour before. S-04 gives me a similar flavour, if I keep reusing it instead of using it in dry form.


You can order from them online. britische-biere.de. They still have some Wold Top and some Hobson's in stock, which are the two breweries with classic ales that they recently imported.
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Don't confuse pub with 002. They are different yeasts, 002 gives you the hangover of death if fermented too warm. Don't ask me how I know....

...pub on the other hand is way more forgiving. I fermented that one at room temperature without any issues. It's my favourite liquid yeast!

I never tried 007, so it can also be that one, cannot rule that one out. Pub can also give some orangy esters when fermented warmer but not extremely upfront, if that's what you're describing.
 
AmarikinBrew said:
Just wondering what percentage of the grist was the DRC as I might seek out that flavor.
Click to expand...

Looking at my notes I was doing anywhere from a 1/4, 3/8 and even once had a 1/2 pound for a 5 gallon batch. I was playing with that and the Crystal Medium in various ratios. It was that 1/2 pound version that I tasted it the most (of course) and finally clued in.

I like munching on the grain and a lot of the flavors, but not that one for brewing an ESB style recipe. I recently and will continue to use it in an Imperial Stout.
 
tracer bullet said:
Looking at my notes I was doing anywhere from a 1/4, 3/8 and even once had a 1/2 pound for a 5 gallon batch. I was playing with that and the Crystal Medium in various ratios. It was that 1/2 pound version that I tasted it the most (of course) and finally clued in.

I like munching on the grain and a lot of the flavors, but not that one for brewing an ESB style recipe. I recently and will continue to use it in an Imperial Stout.
Click to expand...

Playing around with a Dusseldorf Alt, should be a great addition. This works out to around 5.5% of the grist according to beersmith -sound about right?
 
Colindo said:
I only ever used Pub as the 'commercial Fuller's'. Definitely did not enjoy it at 21°C. That was with a healthy underpitch, of course, so maybe there is the difference?
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Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I underpitched it once and it was terrible. I dumped that batch.
 
I like to do clones, so I usually follow all the details I get from the breweries. Fuller's uses the following pitching rates for their parti-gyle beers:
  • 0,5 mil/ml/°P for the ESB,
  • 0,7 mil/ml/°P for the London Pride and
  • 0,8 mil/ml/°P for the Chiswick Bitter.
This comes from a constant amount of yeast of 70 Mil/ml while the original gravity of the three beers differs. The value was given in one of the Fuller's Podcasts on the Brewing Network.

Sadly I don't have any data from other breweries.
 
I think I am going to brew a UK Strong Ale this weekend. Something really simple like 96% MO 4% medium crystal or DRC aiming for an ABV of about 6.5 to 7 %. Goldings only for 45 IBUs. Yeast will be Nottingham.

If I am going to find the suggested Grafschafter Heller Sirup I might add one jar of it as well.
 
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Miraculix said:
I think I am going to brew a UK Strong Ale this weekend. Something really simple like 96% MO 4% medium crystal or DRC aiming for an ABV of about 6.5 to 7 %. Goldings only for 45 IBUs. Yeast will be Nottingham.

If I am going to find the suggested Grafschafter Heller Sirup I might add one jar of it as well.
Click to expand...

Good thing your not using the MariBrew 514/MJ M54 yeast. With sugars it will push stonefruit and bread esters. I know I did it @ ~74F because I'm strange and like those flavors. Cupla Mo. age and it was great for that, very good IMO.
 
AmarikinBrew said:
Good thing your not using the MariBrew 514/MJ M54 yeast. With sugars it will push stonefruit and bread esters. I know I did it @ ~74F because I'm strange and like those flavors. Cupla Mo. age and it was great for that, very good IMO.
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Stone fruit yay! What do you mean with bread esters?
 
Breadfruit.... a bit vinous... the opposite of crispy as I remember. A good dark beer taste if the yeast is treated this way. I should make another batch.
 
The next brew I'm going to make will be a Baltic Porter for the competition at the German Hombrew Convention in March. I was thinking if using this historic recipe as inspiration, since Baltic Porter used to be the Double Export Stouts. Will just have to shoehorn it into those silly BJCP criteria somehow. But definitely will include invert sugars, brown malt and amber malt. Maybe even some Chevallier. Then fermented cool with WY1469, maybe at 16°C...
 
Iwa
Colindo said:
The next brew I'm going to make will be a Baltic Porter for the competition at the German Hombrew Convention in March. I was thinking if using this historic recipe as inspiration, since Baltic Porter used to be the Double Export Stouts. Will just have to shoehorn it into those silly BJCP criteria somehow. But definitely will include invert sugars, brown malt and amber malt. Maybe even some Chevallier. Then fermented cool with WY1469, maybe at 16°C...
Click to expand...
I've been eyeing that recipe aswell. Next Stout will probably be that but with half the amount of amber and a bit more sugar...
 
I brewed an Irish extra stout based on this last weekend:

https://byo.com/wp-content/uploads/woocommerce_uploads/Irish-Extra-Stout.pdf
1699547856683.png


I only discoverd on brew day that I didn't have enough Fuggles; the quantity in my Beersmith inventory was incorrect.
So I subbed it with some Challenger, which I like in a stout anyway.
My first time using WLP004 but with that grain bill I propabaly wouldn't even notice if I used US-05 or Nottingham instead.
 
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Miraculix said:
Sorry mate, but I'm not going to participate in a German event that is based on bjcp rules. No way they are getting a single cent out of my pocket.
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To be fair though, the BJCP have a lot more reasonable guidelines for European styles in their latest edition.
Probably because of all the conplaints on forums like this etc...
 
Does anyone here have experience brewing stock ales for blending with fresh beer? In short, I want to brew a stock ale and age it on Brett C. for a year. Then I’ll brew a fresh “running” beer and blend them. Sounds simple enough, but I’ve never played with Brett before. I haven’t decided on a recipe or even which types of beer yet, just want to get a better understanding of the process before I get started. I’ll list my questions below, thank you for any advice.



  • Some of the stock ale recipes on Ron’s blog have an extremely high FG. Should I shoot for a high FG? I also saw some forum posts about Brett C. taking beers down to 1.005 and that wouldn't be appropriate for many of these beers I don't think.

  • How much brett should I pitch? I saw a post where @Northern_Brewer recommended using a light hand with brett to avoid it overpowering everything else.

  • After I blend and bottle the two beers do you prime as usual? It seems that the brett would go to work on the running beer it was blended with and I’d prefer to avoid exploding bottles or excessive carbonation if possible.
 
I have a stock ale in secondary right now, it went from 1.080 down to 1.007 if my refractometer conversion is true, will test with hydrometer when I bottle next week.
And an Imperial Stout that was inoculated with a shotglass of old ale.

1. If you want to brew a true to style you should go with only Chevalier and 10-15% (cane) sugar, or only malt if you shoot for a pre 1880 one. An old ale oriented one might get away with a few % of black, brown or crystal also.
Regarding FG those listed are racking gravities, tested when the beer was put in the barrel, they usually racked with a few points left to go so always expect the actual FG to be a little lower than advised for historical recipes. More sugar means more work for the brett but shoot for a normal 70-75% AA would be my advice.

I don't know if you've ever tried any old style old or stock ale, like Thomas Hardy's or Gale's Prize, but they are quite dry, although brett like a saision produces glycerol making the beer seem less dry than it actually is.

2.
A tube of brett C is plenty enough, no starter needed, and you can time brewing to inocculate other batches with a shotglass of the going one in the future. Brett is hardy and managed to get secondary fermentations going from a few cells clinging in a wooden barrel for dear life.

3.
Yes, the brett in the aged beer will eat the sugar in a running beer, bottle in 33cl bottles and blend in the glass if you wish to blend it.
 
Erik the Anglophile said:
I have a stock ale in secondary right now, it went from 1.080 down to 1.007 if my refractometer conversion is true, will test with hydrometer when I bottle next week.
And an Imperial Stout that was inoculated with a shotglass of old ale.

1. If you want to brew a true to style you should go with only Chevalier and 10-15% (cane) sugar, or only malt if you shoot for a pre 1880 one. An old ale oriented one might get away with a few % of black, brown or crystal also.
Regarding FG those listed are racking gravities, tested when the beer was put in the barrel, they usually racked with a few points left to go so always expect the actual FG to be a little lower than advised for historical recipes. More sugar means more work for the brett but shoot for a normal 70-75% AA would be my advice.

I don't know if you've ever tried any old style old or stock ale, like Thomas Hardy's or Gale's Prize, but they are quite dry, although brett like a saision produces glycerol making the beer seem less dry than it actually is.

2.
A tube of brett C is plenty enough, no starter needed, and you can time brewing to inocculate other batches with a shotglass of the going one in the future. Brett is hardy and managed to get secondary fermentations going from a few cells clinging in a wooden barrel for dear life.

3.
Yes, the brett in the aged beer will eat the sugar in a running beer, bottle in 33cl bottles and blend in the glass if you wish to blend it.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the detailed response. Unfortunately, living on the Alabama Gulf Coast I haven't had an opportunity to try and real English old or stock ales. I’ll have to try and brew one myself. I have the Chevalier and I can make invert from cane sugar. I guess I just need to order some Brett. How do you think the breweries went about blending stock/running ales? Is it that they blended and sent them to the pubs for immediate consumption so that the brett didn’t have much time to work on the running beer they were blended with? Just my guess.
 
Miraculix said:
Sorry mate, but I'm not going to participate in a German event that is based on bjcp rules. No way they are getting a single cent out of my pocket.
Click to expand...
That's just for the competition, which is like 10% of the content there. I used to hate BJCP, but as long as I can rant about them during the British beer tasting, which I'm presenting, I'm fine with how the convention is run. As an aside, it is also non-profit.

Also as Erik mentioned the 2021 guidelines have a lot of Ron's shouting about historical mistakes in them, so they are pretty correct.
 

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