Electrical wiring questions for spa panel

[Hello]

I've managed to read myself into confusion, so instead of trying to piggy back on another thread, I thought I'd create my own.

I have a shed being dropped in my yard Friday; I'll leave that excitement for my build thread. Originally, I was told that I could have a 50a GFCI breaker in my main and run the wire to the shed where a receptacle would be installed. After speaking to other professionals and communicating with a member here, a spa panel is necessary.

I've run through a handful of people who have given me quotes ranging from $700 for just the 50A GFCI breaker in the main and running the wire to $1400 for everything else. I ordered this book recommended by user @flars, but I am still not sure I will have the know how to make this happen.

In the shed I have to have two duplex receptacles, which will be 120v. I have the following items to consider with their amperage. Please correct my amperage if I am off.

• Chest Freezer 7 cu. ft. 2 amps (temp controlled with an STC-1000+ and there will be some kind of heat source.
• Window A/C 8,000 BTUs 11 amps
• Space heater 200 watts (amps unknown)
• 2 5500 watt heating elements 46A (will run them together from time to time)
• 2 chugger pumps running at 3 amps each
• iPhone plugged in at all times which acts as a camera <1 amp

Questions:
So in my main, I know I have the load availability for 50a, is that enough? If I have a 50a breaker in the main and a 60a GFCI panel in the shed, will I still only be able to draw 50a? I know that some kind of heat or air source will run constantly when I am in the shed and the chest freezer will be running when it runs. So I am unsure if I have too much going on. Then, what gauge wiring do I use? I got a little lost reading the NFPA codes.

This is the spa panel I was looking at:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60-Amp-GFI-Spa-Panel-UG412RMW260P/100567181

Next is, I have to pull a permit, which is okay by me. I am also permitted to do the work myself. I hear it is pretty easy and that maybe trenching the wire will be the hardest. I'll also have to drill to the outside of my house and shed to get the wire from one place to the next. Do I need to provide some sort of protection for the wires that are coming from the house and to the shed that aren't underground?

Here is my Control Panel which has a NEMA 14-50P plug installed. The shed will need a NEMA 14-50R receptacle.

Elements:

 

[Hello]

So one guy, not on this site, said I would only need 10g wire from the main to the sub. I read in another thread that 10g is okay for 30a, I think. Now I'm really not sure.

 

[EuBrew]

The short answer to do you have enough juice to run everything you have going on in the shed is no. A rule of thumb for amp rating is 80% of the breaker. In other words your 50A breaker should only be feeding 40A at any given time. The allowance is there for short term start up. When the compressor on your window unit starts there is a spike in the amps that it draws then it will level out to its running amp. You need this allowance so you don't blow a breaker everytime your compressor starts.

What amperage is your main panel you are feeding the shed?
As for the wiring 10 is too small for a 50 A panel, should be 6 or larger depending on length if run and if you end up going larger on your amps in the garage.

 

[homebrew57]

Agreed with above. You are going to need more than 50 amp service out to your shed. If you have a 200 amp main service panel at your house, I would personally look into running a small subpanel out to the shed on a much larger serivce, like 80 amps. That way you could have a 50 amp circuit just for your brew system, and 2 15 amp circuits for lights, A/C, and anything else you got going on in there.

 

[Hello]

The short answer to do you have enough juice to run everything you have going on in the shed is no. A rule of thumb for amp rating is 80% of the breaker. In other words your 50A breaker should only be feeding 40A at any given time. The allowance is there for short term start up. When the compressor on your window unit starts there is a spike in the amps that it draws then it will level out to its running amp. You need this allowance so you don't blow a breaker everytime your compressor starts.

What amperage is your main panel you are feeding the shed?
As for the wiring 10 is too small for a 50 A panel, should be 6 or larger depending on length if run and if you end up going larger on your amps in the garage.

I don't have anything in the main that will feed the shed, yet.
I know I can handle at least 80 amps in my main in addition to what I already have.
I figured 10 was too small. The length of the run will be less than 15 feet. That is actually overshooting it and giving some allowance for it running down the wall of the garage, out the garage, underground, and up the wall of the shed to the sub panel.

Agreed with above. You are going to need more than 50 amp service out to your shed. If you have a 200 amp main service panel at your house, I would personally look into running a small subpanel out to the shed on a much larger serivce, like 80 amps. That way you could have a 50 amp circuit just for your brew system, and 2 15 amp circuits for lights, A/C, and anything else you got going on in there.

I definitely will have the sub panel. Are you saying that the sub panel should be 80 amps GFCI and the main should have an 80 amp breaker or something that somehow delivers 80amps?

 

[homebrew57]

You asked if 50 amps to your shed was enough. I say no, as did the person above my comment. So my suggestion was to run enough power to power a small sub panel, just like the main panel in your house but much smaller, that can house 3 circuit breakers. One would be you 50 amp breaker for your brew system, and then 2 15 amp breakers. One 15 amp breaker would be for lights in the shed. The other could be for your outlets to run your ferm chamber, space heater, A/C, etc. Although the A/C is pulling some juice so maybe a 20 amp circuit. None of this is GFCI protected. Then from there I think most would tell you to wire the 50 amp circuit from the subpanel to a 50 or 60 amp spa panel. This gives you your GFCI protection on the cheap and is only needed for the brew system. Now, all of this being said, I am not an electrician and my numbers may be a little off. There will be better advice coming soon I am sure. I just was giving you something to think about and let you know that 50 amps is not going to be enough if you plan on running more than just your brew system at one time.

 

[kpr121]

Agree with others, 50A is not enough. If you&#8217;re running a power line to the garage it will never be cheaper to gain the extra capacity then right now, so I would run as big of a subpanel as you think you will ever need in the garage unless you are extremely pinched for budget.

With everything you have currently planned it might be best to go at least 80A, I&#8217;d probably shoot for 100A. Then you can have 50A for your 220v brewery, a 15A for lights, a 20A for outlets, and an extra 15A for expansion (maybe down the line you want an external outlet ran to the back of your yard? Or you want a dedicated circuit for shop tools/vacuum/air compressor/etc? Or you just want to hook up a 1500W speaker system for brew-session jamming?).

Of course 100A means bigger wire.

Wire up a 50A receptacle in the garage along with 110V lights/outlets. Get that inspection approval. Then do SPA Panel with dryer cord. That way it will be somewhat portable and you can still use the 50A outlet for something else if ever needed.

If you&#8217;re wanting to save some money do all or most of it yourself. Just be careful and shut off main breaker before tapping in! I think that the cabling needs to be in conduit the whole way from exterior of house to exterior of garage. Oh and think about anything else you might want ran back to the garage (phone line, Ethernet, TV cable, etc) while you got a trench dug. Or at least maybe lay a separate open conduit with string to fish new wire into.

 

[Hello]

You asked if 50 amps to your shed was enough. I say no, as did the person above my comment. So my suggestion was to run enough power to power a small sub panel, just like the main panel in your house but much smaller, that can house 3 circuit breakers. One would be you 50 amp breaker for your brew system, and then 2 15 amp breakers. One 15 amp breaker would be for lights in the shed. The other could be for your outlets to run your ferm chamber, space heater, A/C, etc. Although the A/C is pulling some juice so maybe a 20 amp circuit. None of this is GFCI protected.

I followed you up until the GFCI protected. Wouldn't the sub panel be GFCI protected if I bought one that was?

Then from there I think most would tell you to wire the 50 amp circuit from the subpanel to a 50 or 60 amp spa panel. This gives you your GFCI protection on the cheap and is only needed for the brew system. Now, all of this being said, I am not an electrician and my numbers may be a little off. There will be better advice coming soon I am sure. I just was giving you something to think about and let you know that 50 amps is not going to be enough if you plan on running more than just your brew system at one time.

This may be where I lost you completely. I am reading this as you saying that I wire a 50amp circuit to a sub panel in my garage. So I'd be looking at a main and a sub side by side. Then I run that 50a service to a 50-60 amp spa panel, which gives me what I need.
50 amps is not enough, I follow this one completely. Is a spa panel and a sub panel not the same thing? When I say sub I mean spa interchangabley. Perhaps where there is a distinction is one is GFIC protected and the other is not, right?

So that leads me to KPR's response...

Agree with others, 50A is not enough. If you’re running a power line to the garage it will never be cheaper to gain the extra capacity then right now, so I would run as big of a subpanel as you think you will ever need in the garage unless you are extremely pinched for budget.

With everything you have currently planned it might be best to go at least 80A, I’d probably shoot for 100A. Then you can have 50A for your 220v brewery, a 15A for lights, a 20A for outlets, and an extra 15A for expansion (maybe down the line you want an external outlet ran to the back of your yard? Or you want a dedicated circuit for shop tools/vacuum/air compressor/etc? Or you just want to hook up a 1500W speaker system for brew-session jamming?).

Of course 100A means bigger wire.

Wire up a 50A receptacle in the garage along with 110V lights/outlets. Get that inspection approval. Then do SPA Panel with dryer cord. That way it will be somewhat portable and you can still use the 50A outlet for something else if ever needed.

If you’re wanting to save some money do all or most of it yourself. Just be careful and shut off main breaker before tapping in! I think that the cabling needs to be in conduit the whole way from exterior of house to exterior of garage. Oh and think about anything else you might want ran back to the garage (phone line, Ethernet, TV cable, etc) while you got a trench dug. Or at least maybe lay a separate open conduit with string to fish new wire into.

Option 1:
In my main panel, in the garage, I would want to insert a 50a breaker alongside two more 110v breakers for my lights and crud. The 110vs will be a tandem most likely so I'll just make them both 20a providing I can handle the load. Then wire from those new breakers I pull the wiring through the wall and to the shed where a new sub/spa panel is hung. There is where I get my GFCI protection on the 220v and standard on the 110vs (outlets on 110v will be GFCI protected until the inspection is done) and I'm golden. Right?


Option 2: wire a 50a breaker in the main, put in a 50a receptacle, and then run the dryer cord to the new spa panel in the shed. But what about my 110v? Will those be hard wired?

Whether I do this myself or not, I've learned I need to effectively explain this to an electrician and I don't think I did that well before.

Thanks for putting up with my confusion all. I'd love to do this myself for sure though.

 

[Brettomomyces]

It will be a little more $$, but why not just instal a 50A GFCI breaker in this new sub panel and skip doing a spa panel? Just one more thing to wire/setup that could be taken care of with just a different breaker.

 

[BigFloppy]

You're overthinking it!

80A double breaker in main panel in garage

run 6-4 or 4-4 from the 80A to shed and connect to GFCI panel

The GFCI panel you linked to can (99% certain) handle 2 additional internal breakers - these would be your lighting breaker and outlets breaker (see HD linked picture where there's cutouts ready to be punched for additional breakers)

Wire your NEMA 14-50R receptacle to the GFCI breaker (minimum 6GA wire)
job done, easy-peasy

 

[homebrew57]

Thank you BigFloppy for helping with the explanation. I was not explaining clearly. His is slightly different from what I was saying but his way is simpler.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

You can totally do most of this yourself.

Now let's talk subpanel. This is essentially a distribution box for your brew shed, and if you are talking about a separate standing structure you should have a subpanel. You wire one breaker (probably ~80A) in your MAIN panel and that feeds your subpanel through a line (you can get four conductor line at Lowes etc.) from the main box via conduit. If you pick the right brand of subpanel you can get a GFCI breaker for less than a spa panel and the wiring will be simpler. Spa panels are popular because it is usually a relatively cheaper way to get GFCI protection, but not always.

Things to ask an electrician:
Calculate how much power you need in the shed.
Verify that you have that much available (per code).
I would consider having the electrician wire in the breaker in your main and you can do the subpanel (electricians are expensive but playing in your main panel isn't a beginner job).

 

[Hello]

You're overthinking it!

80A double breaker in main panel in garage

run 6-4 or 4-4 from the 80A to shed and connect to GFCI panel

The GFCI panel you linked to can (99% certain) handle 2 additional internal breakers - these would be your lighting breaker and outlets breaker (see HD linked picture where there's cutouts ready to be punched for additional breakers)

Wire your NEMA 14-50R receptacle to the GFCI breaker (minimum 6GA wire)
job done, easy-peasy

Now this I can follow without overthinking. @homebrew57 was not explaining it poorly, I was overthinking it completely.

Thank you BigFloppy for helping with the explanation. I was not explaining clearly. His is slightly different from what I was saying but his way is simpler.

Nope, he is right, I was overthinking the whole thing getting caught up on little things that probably didn't need to be considered yet.

You can totally do most of this yourself.

Now let's talk subpanel. This is essentially a distribution box for your brew shed, and if you are talking about a separate standing structure you should have a subpanel. You wire one breaker (probably ~80A) in your MAIN panel and that feeds your subpanel through a line (you can get four conductor line at Lowes etc.) from the main box via conduit. If you pick the right brand of subpanel you can get a GFCI breaker for less than a spa panel and the wiring will be simpler. Spa panels are popular because it is usually a relatively cheaper way to get GFCI protection, but not always.

Things to ask an electrician:
Calculate how much power you need in the shed.
Verify that you have that much available (per code).
I would consider having the electrician wire in the breaker in your main and you can do the subpanel (electricians are expensive but playing in your main panel isn't a beginner job).

What I'll do is have the electrician come back out and answer those questions for me then have them pull the permit to install the 80a breaker. Would I want them to install the wiring too and just leave it in the garage (not live though)?

Sounds like that is the best way I can do this.

As for everything, thank you guys. I really would like to cut costs and also learn this myself. I had the control panel built because it was just overwhelming. I wanted it done right and it looks as right as I figured it would. This though, overtime I open my mouth about it, someone says I can do that. I think they have more confidence in me than I do.

 

[kpr121]

If you feel uncomfortable about doing the running of electric yourself, by all means you should hire someone to do the work. There's nothing unmanly about being smart and not killing yourself.

This might be a tough thing to accomplish unless your friends with or find a super cool electrician but maybe talk to them and tell them your situation, you'd like to learn a little more about how home electricity works and would prefer to do part(s) of the work yourself to save a bit on costs. Ask him/her what they would feel comfortable with letting you handle.

And yes you can add breakers to that spa box and just use it as a subpanel. But consider if you'd be likely to expand to more in the future...I know when I eventually put a subpanel in the garage it's going to be the biggest I can afford at the time and then I never have to worry about it again. Another advantage of the separate spa panel is that it is somewhat portable... If there's good chance that you might want to take your setup somewhere else and brew (or if you may be moving in near future), you can set it up elsewhere.

 

[Hello]

If you feel uncomfortable about doing the running of electric yourself, by all means you should hire someone to do the work. There's nothing unmanly about being smart and not killing yourself.

This might be a tough thing to accomplish unless your friends with or find a super cool electrician but maybe talk to them and tell them your situation, you'd like to learn a little more about how home electricity works and would prefer to do part(s) of the work yourself to save a bit on costs. Ask him/her what they would feel comfortable with letting you handle.

And yes you can add breakers to that spa box and just use it as a subpanel. But consider if you'd be likely to expand to more in the future...I know when I eventually put a subpanel in the garage it's going to be the biggest I can afford at the time and then I never have to worry about it again. Another advantage of the separate spa panel is that it is somewhat portable... If there's good chance that you might want to take your setup somewhere else and brew (or if you may be moving in near future), you can set it up elsewhere.

I'm definitely not above asking for help or hiring someone. I should hear back from the electrician today, I hope, and I can talk to them more then now that I know a little more about what I need. Before I just said I needed 50a service and that was the end. I do need more and I don't want to overload anything.

I keep reading and thinking that tons of members on this site tackle these projects and save some money, which is nice. Given the wide range of quotes I've been given, I wouldn't mind not taking such a huge hit on electrical. I still need to fit my kettles and buy at least one more as well as everything else that goes with moving to eHERMS.

The great thing is that I will need a permit, so if the electrician puts the 80a in my main and pulls the wire out and lets me run with the rest, then the inspector will not approve the work until it is right. I hope that I can save some cash by just asking the electrician to stop at pulling the wire out.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

The great thing is that I will need a permit, so if the electrician puts the 80a in my main and pulls the wire out and lets me run with the rest, then the inspector will not approve the work until it is right. I hope that I can save some cash by just asking the electrician to stop at pulling the wire out.

I cannot stress enough that like many things in life, fear is your enemy. Just take a methodical approach. For me what helps in the planning stage is to make a list of loads (outlets, lights, etc) then turn them into a VERY simple wiring diagram. If you are trying to work to difficult, modern code it is actually easiest to work backward from the outlets (also know as terminations) to the main breaker box.

So as an example, I just turned two tiny bedrooms and smallish bath into a Master Bedroom Suite and a powder room. In my case, I wanted everything to meet the current NEC (most jurisdictions are at least one NEC release behind...many are still on 2008 because the changes after that are, well silly in some cases) but that is really not that important...you want safe and function.

My list ended up relatively long but I was able to sort through a lot of things as I tried to devise a diagram that would minimize my runs and eliminate difficult one-man wire pulls. So the planning process actually ended up simplifying final install.

If you can make a recipe, plans the brew day and execute the plan...you can do this.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm definitely not above asking for help or hiring someone. I should hear back from the electrician today, I hope, and I can talk to them more then now that I know a little more about what I need. Before I just said I needed 50a service and that was the end. I do need more and I don't want to overload anything.

I keep reading and thinking that tons of members on this site tackle these projects and save some money, which is nice. Given the wide range of quotes I've been given, I wouldn't mind not taking such a huge hit on electrical. I still need to fit my kettles and buy at least one more as well as everything else that goes with moving to eHERMS.

The great thing is that I will need a permit, so if the electrician puts the 80a in my main and pulls the wire out and lets me run with the rest, then the inspector will not approve the work until it is right. I hope that I can save some cash by just asking the electrician to stop at pulling the wire out.

where I live the city inspector doesn't do electrical. My memory of the situation is cloudy but when I ran the wiring for my hot tub I thought I had to pay an electrician to come out and "inspect" my work.... He made me replace a heavy duty insulated 6awg cable run from the spa to the spapanel because it was missing the "UL LISTED" tag....It was frustrating and even he admitted the cable I used was better than what I replaced it with from the hardware store....

 

[Hello]

where I live the city inspector doesn't do electrical. My memory of the situation is cloudy but when I ran the wiring for my hot tub I thought I had to pay an electrician to come out and "inspect" my work.... He made me replace a heavy duty insulated 6awg cable run from the spa to the spapanel because it was missing the "UL LISTED" tag....It was frustrating and even he admitted the cable I used was better than what I replaced it with from the hardware store....

In my Town we're required to have the inspector come inspect our work if new service is being installed. If under a certain amount, which is in the thousands, the homeowner can do it. They don't require me to hold a license in any capacity. At least in that respect, it is good.

I get my wiring book today, I think that may also really help me out.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have one 30a service that I run my whole system off just fine.... As long as your not spending 8hrs a day in that shed doing back to back brewing 30amps is plenty... a pump uses about 1.5 amps... a 5500w element draws about 22 amps.... the rest of the panel draws less than an amp and the lights maybe another amp... I power a 220v chiller ,a 4500w element, 1000w rims element and 2 dc pumps at the same time and draw under 30a and have not had a single issue with any popping breakers or things heating up.
The 80% rule is for sustained loads that last at full draw over 3 hrs...
simple answer is if you are going to use both elements at the same time to do back to back brews than yes you NEED 50amps... otherwise you certainly do NOT its wont hurt anything but your pocketbook to go with a 50a service though so If you don't mind the extra cost go for it.
the other option is actually having a dedicated 30a service for brewing and another 15a line for regular 120v outlets for lights and such...(my choice)

 

[augiedoggy]

In my Town we're required to have the inspector come inspect our work if new service is being installed. If under a certain amount, which is in the thousands, the homeowner can do it. They don't require me to hold a license in any capacity. At least in that respect, it is good.

I get my wiring book today, I think that may also really help me out.

Yes here too... however thanks to politics depending on what the homeowner is doing the code inspector can make life hell until you hire someone... for example I was helping a friend replace all the old galvanized plumbing with pex in his house and the inspector kept changing his mind on what he would approve and not approve... he said one thing was fine but fix this.... we fixed "this" and then he would say something else that he already inspected needed to be redone... The whole time he kept pressuring us to call a locally licensed plumber (One of which, that he recommended was is his brother BTW)
And when I replaced the front porch on my house they told me my porch would not pass (after approving the plans btw) when I pulled out my reference books and showed them otherwise they told me all my code books from school (I took a building trades course for two years in BOCES and graduated in 1996) were no good and what met code then no loner does...
They made me double up every other floor joist because according to their new codes the max span was 10ft and I had a span of 10ft 2 inches.... the porch I replaced had 2x6 nominal joists and I had already replaced them with 2x8 or 2x10s (cant remember now)... Inspector said the porch needed to support the same load levels as the house, to accommodate and support all the heavy furniture and appliances I was not going to put on my front porch I guess...
most of the time the town of city inspector is appointed through political of personal connections with someone else and they don't have to have any real trade certicications to perform the job.... keep that in mind. Its one of the reasons local codes vary so much from town to town.

 

[elerten]

I have one 30a service that I run my whole system off just fine.... As long as your not spending 8hrs a day in that shed doing back to back brewing 30amps is plenty... a pump uses about 1.5 amps... a 5500w element draws about 22 amps.... the rest of the panel draws less than an amp and the lights maybe another amp... I power a 220v chiller ,a 4500w element, 1000w rims element and 2 dc pumps at the same time and draw under 30a and have not had a single issue with any popping breakers or things heating up.
The 80% rule is for sustained loads that last at full draw over 3 hrs...
simple answer is if you are going to use both elements at the same time to do back to back brews than yes you NEED 50amps... otherwise you certainly do NOT its wont hurt anything but your pocketbook to go with a 50a service though so If you don't mind the extra cost go for it.
the other option is actually having a dedicated 30a service for brewing and another 15a line for regular 120v outlets for lights and such...(my choice)

He's running 2 5500w elements at the same time according to the op. 30 won't cut it.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I get my wiring book today, I think that may also really help me out.

Can I suggest "Code Check" books like this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1621137783/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If you are really into book learning. It is picture based but does assume a certain amount of knowledge. Even without that knowledge, they are invaluable in being able to point at things when asking questions. I may not be your only reference but sure is handy.

I learned all I know about drain and vent plumbing from one of these when added a bath to my house in Tulsa. Take all the mystery out of it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Something I noticed when kpr121 mentioned to install a 80A (double pole) sub panel in the shed.

You'll need 50A to run your 2 5500W elements concurrently. That leaves you with 30A spare at each of the (double) poles, which is a total of 60A at 110V, not 30A. I'd say that leaves enough even for a modest future expansion of some sort.

Please note:
Your space heater will pull more than 2A (200W). More like 15-20A (1500-2000W). Once your kettles get fired up, that space heater won't be needed at full power.

In that light, although a 100A service panel does sound like overkill, the price difference compared to an 80A may be minimal, or even less. Even for your 20' run, aluminum wire may cost quite a bit less than copper, but realize, it is very, very stiff and very hard to work with inside your main panel. I'd stick to copper.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

In that light, although a 100A service panel does sound like overkill, the price difference compared to an 80A may be minimal, or even less. Even for your 20' run, aluminum wire may cost quite a bit less than copper, but realize, it is very, very stiff and very hard to work with inside your main panel. I'd stick to copper.

Homeline (basically QO without the industrial spec...breakers are interchangeable) with a 100 Amp main breaker and a collection of 15 and 20 amp breakers included actual run LESS than any other option but you still have to buy two 30 AMP GFCI's plus the 100 Amp breaker for the main load center. In short we are probably muddying the waters again.

 

[augiedoggy]

He's running 2 5500w elements at the same time according to the op. 30 won't cut it.

OK I missed that.... since he is running heaters and such all off this same circuit 60-80a makes more sense...

 

[homebrew57]

I looked back over the OP and you did not have ventilation listed. You probably want to add that to your list of amperage draws.

 

[kpr121]

Homeline (basically QO without the industrial spec...breakers are interchangeable) with a 100 Amp main breaker and a collection of 15 and 20 amp breakers included actual run LESS than any other option but you still have to buy two 30 AMP GFCI's plus the 100 Amp breaker for the main load center. In short we are probably muddying the waters again.

Hopefully this is not muddying even more... Yes this was part of the reasoning I would suggest going to 100 amps. Space heater and ventilation fans are even more reason to have room for expansion.

I would think that unless you find something on clearance, the best combination of satisfying your current needs, having expansion capability, and cost efficient solution is likely a 100A homeline or similar subpanel with a 60 amp SPA panel. Not sure where you were coming up with the two 30AMP GFCI's Onkel?

 

[homebrew57]

I agree with kpr121.

 

[IslandLizard]

Homeline (basically QO without the industrial spec...breakers are interchangeable) with a 100 Amp main breaker and a collection of 15 and 20 amp breakers included actual run LESS than any other option but you still have to buy two 30 AMP GFCI's plus the 100 Amp breaker for the main load center. In short we are probably muddying the waters again.

Yeah, you're muddying it.
I thought the conclusion for the best route was:

Main Panel (home) -- 80A or 100A breaker to Sub Panel > 80A or 100A Sub Panel (shed) -- 50A or 60A breaker to Spa Panel > Spa Panel with 50A or 60A 240V GFCI > Brew Panel (50A)

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I would think that unless you find something on clearance, the best combination of satisfying your current needs, having expansion capability, and cost efficient solution is likely a 100A homeline or similar subpanel with a 60 amp SPA panel. Not sure where you were coming up with the two 30AMP GFCI's Onkel?

I was skipping the spa panel all together (since we now have a subpanel) and thinking the two elements had separate breakers. Now that I think about I am guessing the control panel for the electric brewery is a single cord with a 50 amp plug so that is my bad.

 

[BigFloppy]

If OP needs more than 4 rings (Lights, Sockets, Heat and Cool) or 125A - using 4 tandem breakers + the 60A included GFCI then definitely go with a separate sub-panel, otherwise, treat the spa-panel as a sub-panel in it's own right because that's exactly what it is... a panel with a pre-installed 60A GFCI breakier

 

[Hello]

The end game here is now is 100a at the main, pulled to the shed where there's a sub/spa panel with three breakers, one is likely 50a, both will be 20a. 50a will be my NEMA 14-50R receptacle, one duplex for a window a/c or heater depending upon weather and the vent fan, the other will be for the chest freezer (ferm chamber). The vent fan claims 2 amps. Ideally the chest freezer will be on it's own breaker.

And I think this is a panel that I could use. http://t.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-H...ain-Lug-Load-Center-HOM612L100RBCP/100143240/

 

[Hello]

Okay, I got the quote from the electrican and its huge. I didn't expect it to be that high.

I can't entirely decipher what they can do and what I'll do. I intend to dog the trench myself, so that should be $300 off that $980 if they're charging me the same as the last quote for 50a service. I intended to have them put the breaker in the main, pull the wire through the wall and pull the permit, leaving me with trenching and the shed. Does that mean I'm looking at roughly a grand for what I want them to do?
Quote:
Plans and Permits $150
100 amp circuit and trench from electrical panel in garage to new sub panel in shed includes 2 new ground rods for sub panel. $980
100 amp ITE breaker $108.95
100 sub panel. Includes panel installation and two 8' ground rods and bonding wire. $257
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 240v 50A
Includes: outlet, up to 30' of romex, breaker $515.25
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 120v 20A
Includes: GFCI outlet, light switch with 4' T8 fluorescent fixture, up to 30' of romex, and breaker. Price is of open framing inside of shed. $105.94

 

[kpr121]

Seems like they are double dipping you a little between these two items:

100 amp circuit and trench from electrical panel in garage to new sub panel in shed includes 2 new ground rods for sub panel. $980

100 sub panel. Includes panel installation and two 8' ground rods and bonding wire. $257


Ask about that. And ask if first line includes subpanel material costs and installation.

They are burning you on the 240V dedicated circuit IMHO. If I were you I would run that yourself. Would be no more than $100 in materials for 6/3 or 8/3 wire, outlet box and breaker.

The 110v costs seems reasonable if it includes the T8 fixture, but thats all stuff you can do yourself too.

Remember to get brewing you are going to want GFCI protection so that means either additional SPA panel or they put a GFCI breaker in the subpanel. Quote doesnt mention 240V GFCI.



If I were you I would discuss with him exactly what needs to be done, tell him what you will be doing yourself, and then have him give the quote for the rest of the work. This is a tricky conversation and process because different contractors price their quotes differently... ideally each task should have its own line item and should be written how much it will cost in materials and labor per line item, and there shouldnt be any extra fluff anywhere. but thats not always the case... plus most contractors just want you to pay a big number and let them do all the work, if you start piecemealing things they may charge you more per line item to make up for profit they would have gotten with the whole job.

That's why my next suggestion would be to get additional quotes from other contractors.

 

[IslandLizard]

Plans and permits $150 => What is the exact permit fee portion? Usually a flat fee plus percentage of job cost.
Are "plans" required by permit office? Usually a rough sketch is fine for these things.

Why is the 240V 50A circuit $515? That sounds excessive.
Breaker, wire, and outlet. That should actually be hardwired to your SPA panel, no receptacle (and plug and cord) needed.

 

[Hello]

I'm actually pricing this via Home Depot. It jumped 3x the price moving to 100a and to a sub panel. That sounds wrong.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Okay, I got the quote from the electrican and its huge. I didn't expect it to be that high.

I can't entirely decipher what they can do and what I'll do. I intend to dog the trench myself, so that should be $300 off that $980 if they're charging me the same as the last quote for 50a service. I intended to have them put the breaker in the main, pull the wire through the wall and pull the permit, leaving me with trenching and the shed. Does that mean I'm looking at roughly a grand for what I want them to do?
Quote:
Plans and Permits $150
100 amp circuit and trench from electrical panel in garage to new sub panel in shed includes 2 new ground rods for sub panel. $980
100 amp ITE breaker $108.95
100 sub panel. Includes panel installation and two 8' ground rods and bonding wire. $257
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 240v 50A
Includes: outlet, up to 30' of romex, breaker $515.25
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 120v 20A
Includes: GFCI outlet, light switch with 4' T8 fluorescent fixture, up to 30' of romex, and breaker. Price is of open framing inside of shed. $105.94

Is your main panel a pushmatic? If do you may want to upgrade it too. If it's a normal 200a panel, I think Seimens breakers are rated for ITE panels and shouldn't cost that much.

Ground rods are not needed at your sub panel. He should be running 4 wires. Two hots, a neutral and ground. The ground tie screw must be removed in the sub panel. I did use separate grounds for my shed, but it's not required. All my grounds are tied together though. The ground from your main panel must be tied to the sub panel ground.

For that price, make darn sure he properly does the trench, I think a minimum of 20" and in conduit or if USE cable, sand placed around the cable, and make sure there is red buried cable tape in the ditch too.

 

[EuBrew]

Ground rods are not needed at your sub panel. He should be running 4 wires. Two hots, a neutral and ground. The ground tie screw must be removed in the sub panel. I did use separate grounds for my shed, but it's not required. All my grounds are tied together though. The ground from your main panel must be tied to the sub panel ground.

May not be needed but may be required by the city where he's pulling the permit. I ran 100 amps in the detached garage from the alley and trenched 200 amp to the house to eliminate overhead lines because my neighbors both have huge trees that are always shedding branches. Anywho, the city inspector required a ground at the meter attached to the garage that then feeds the 100 amp and the 200 amp then a separate disconnect and ground where the 200 enters the house.

As has been said, save yourself a boatload of cash by running everything but the large service yourself if you can.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Ground rods are not needed at your sub panel. He should be running 4 wires. Two hots, a neutral and ground. The ground tie screw must be removed in the sub panel. I did use separate grounds for my shed, but it's not required. All my grounds are tied together though. The ground from your main panel must be tied to the sub panel ground.

The most current two NEC's all but require it for an "outbuilding". Most states are three or more updates behind. Individual Municipalities are often quicker to adopt so be careful...even then, they can pick choose what they want to keep.

 

[Fatman_Brew]

Some things to consider...

There will always be a markup on materials to cover costs involved in purchasing, transporting, and storage of materials. Do not expect to be charged Home Depot prices for materials.
Most electricians have a ball park dollar value based on square footage to meet NEC code, with triggers for extras and unusual requests. Get a few other quotes, but expect them to be somewhat close.

As others have said, the ground rods are required per NEC in this application.