Electrical wiring help

[akthor]

So building a 1 barrel EBIAB. I have 2 - 5500 watt elements in my 40 gal kettle. My control panel will run both to get up to temps and then just one to maintain temps.

So there was an electric dryer where I am building my brew space. Pics are below. Do I just need to put a 50 amp breaker in the breaker box and a gfci spa panel between the box and the control panel?

 

[akthor]

Crap didn't realize the breaker box picture was fuzzy.

 

[doug293cz]

That looks like it might be 10AWG wire running to the dryer outlet. 10AWG is only good up to 30A. 30A is common for dryer circuits. For a 50A circuit, you need to rewire with 6AWG (ref: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=145019.)

Brew on

 

[PeteNMA]

That wire is 10 gauge so is not suitable for a 50a circuit. You'd need to replace it with 6 gauge wire along with swapping out the breaker for a 50A unit

 

[akthor]

OK so replace the wire with 6 AWG. Everything else OK? Put 50 amp breaker in box then spa panel between box and outlet for control panel?

 

[doug293cz]

OK so replace the wire with 6 AWG. Everything else OK? Put 50 amp breaker in box then spa panel between box and outlet for control panel?

You can either put a 50A GFCI breaker in the service panel, or put a standard 50A breaker in the service panel and use the spa panel with GFCI between the service panel and the control panel. Most folks use the spa panel option because it turns out to be cheaper.

Brew on

 

[akthor]

OK cool thanks for the help guys!

 

[jjjjfrench]

FWIW, you probably know this, but to be complete note that 2 5500 watt elements on a single 50 amp circuit is not up to code. You will be drawing 90% of the 50 amps. Code typically only allows up to 80%.
To be within code you need a 60 amp circuit.

 

[akthor]

So a 60 amp breaker and a 60 amp spa panel?

 

[SpentBrains]

or a 5500 watt element and a 3500 watt element...

 

[PeteNMA]

Given that you are not running a continuous load 50a is plenty

 

[akthor]

Yeah no just want to get to temps fast hence the 2nd element then turn the 2nd one off as soon as I can.

 

[Bobby_M]

A 50 amp circuit is plenty for two 5500 watt elements as this will not be a continuous load. Since you'll already be replacing the main breaker and the wire, there's nothing tying you to that particular location anymore (just a thought, it may still be where you want to brew). I'd recommend checking Ebay for a panel breaker with GFCI built in. Once in a while you get lucky and find one that fits your panel for $50 or so and that's cheaper than the spa panel.

I would still run both elements on SSRS controlled by a PID. There's no reason to disengage one element. The PID will take care of throttling.

 

[SpentBrains]

Given that you are not running a continuous load 50a is plenty

...but it will be continuous for the period of time while both elements are on during the heat up phase...

 

[Bobby_M]

Right. Since the period of time is less than 3 hours, it's not a code issue. There will be no breaker trips or any problems.

 

[PeteNMA]

Yeah. Continuous is defined by a length of time over a certain power draw. Not by the total draw at any one discrete moment.

AJDelange hashed this out very well in another thread, with several very well worked examples.

 

[akthor]

Thank you very much for the advice and the tip about eBay!

 

[PeteNMA]

It's certainly worth either keeping an eye open or setting up a saved search if you have the patience. It looks like you have a Square D main panel so if you can get a Square D Spa Panel then the GFCI breaker should drop straight in to your main panel which makes life easier.

 

[jeffmeh]

Already been said.... Continuous load....

 

[akthor]

So do I need to get a square D breaker since I have a square D box? Or will any breaker fit? Here's a pic of inside the bottom left is the 30amp breaker for the dryer I will replace with the 50 amp gfci.

 

[itsnotrequired]

get a square-d breaker. panelboards are not listed for use with other manufacturer's breakers.

 

[PeteNMA]

And a different brand probably wouldn't even fit

 

[mrtav]

If it helps, This is what I did:
Dryer outlet is old style 3 prong, I simply bought a dryer plug, and some rubber coated 10-4 service wire, two 4-gang boxes, one 3 prong and one 4-prong 240v dryer receptacle, and a 50a spa pak.
Oh, and a piece of 10 gauge wire about 10 feet long for ground for new 4-wire connection.
This is very simple and if I move (or when I move), all that I have to do is unplug it and take it with me.

 

[akthor]

Won't work for me my dryer breaker is 30 amp I need 50 amps.

 

[akthor]

Well I finally figured out the breaker thing. Some are interchangeable as per this chart:

http://www.homedepot.com/c/how_to_replace_circuit_breaker_HT_BG_EL

BUT even breakers from the same company may not fit in the same box. My box is a Square D QO box. Which means I need QO breakers. If I bought Square D HOM breakers for instance they wouldn't fit.The box type you have is on the info label on the inside of you box door.

Thanks for the advice Bobby I got a brand new 50 amp gfci breaker on the 'bay for $60.

 

[podz]

Well I finally figured out the breaker thing. Some are interchangeable as per this chart:

http://www.homedepot.com/c/how_to_replace_circuit_breaker_HT_BG_EL

BUT even breakers from the same company may not fit in the same box. My box is a Square D QO box. Which means I need QO breakers. If I bought Square D HOM breakers for instance they wouldn't fit.The box type you have is on the info label on the inside of you box door.

Thanks for the advice Bobby I got a brand new 50 amp gfci breaker on the 'bay for $60.

This thread makes me really glad that I live in Europe where we use DIN rails and Mini Circuit Breakers. An MCB from any manufacturer will fit onto a DIN rail, because DIN is a standard. The depth as well as the unit widths of the MCBs are also all identical, regardless of the manufacturer. They come in widths of 1, 2, or 3 units depending on the purpose (1-phase, 2-phase or 3-phase).

 

[akthor]

But you also have to use that hokey metric system. Ranks right up there with Soccer as the worst ideas ever!

 

[PeteNMA]

Exactly. The real sport is rugby

 

[BREWBYRD]

Breakers are different. Best to take one with you if possible. That said, you could also take a pic (of the business side) of the breaker and match it up. HD has square D

 

[akthor]

Already got one off eBay. Made sure it matches my box.

 

[podz]

But you also have to use that hokey metric system. Ranks right up there with Soccer as the worst ideas ever!

Let me see now...

Water freezes at 32 F and boils at 212 F. Water freezes at 0 C and boils at 100 C.

Your average mechanic does not understand in his head in which order the socket sizes progress (7/32, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16) unless he commits them blindly to memory. A 5 year old kid knows that a 7mm socket is the next size up from a 6mm socket.

Almost every person in the world knows that half a kilometer is 500 meters. Most USA people can not tell you right off the top of their head, without googling or something, how many feet are in a mile and even fewer can quickly divide 5280 by 2 in their head to tell you how many feet are in a half mile.

 

[akthor]

I was only teasing. Now I freely admit I don't like Celcius simply because when someone tells me its 20 below in F I understand how cold that is.

Same with weights, measures, volume.

But I do like metric sockets and wrenches.

 

[PeteNMA]

Fahrenheit is great for talking about weather and room temperatures, you basically get blocks of ten to gauge comfort

 

[akthor]

So I can put whatever plug on want on my control panel so does that mean I can reuse the dryer outlet and just a plug to match?

 

[akthor]

This is the dryer outlet:

 

[PeteNMA]

Yes.

 

[akthor]

Gawd dammit! The stoopid eBay seller mistitled the auction and called the Square D HOM 50 amp gfci I bought a QO one! Now I gotta go thru all the return BS.

I spy a square D spa panel containing a QO 50 amp gfci breaker. Anything preventing me from buying that and pulling the breaker out of the spa panel and just putting it in my main panel?

 

[jeffmeh]

Gawd dammit! The stoopid eBay seller mistitled the auction and called the Square D HOM 50 amp gfci I bought a QO one! Now I gotta go thru all the return BS.

I spy a square D spa panel containing a QO 50 amp gfci breaker. Anything preventing me from buying that and pulling the breaker out of the spa panel and just putting it in my main panel?

You would not be the first person to buy the spa panel just for the breaker. Should work fine, but it is crazy that the spa panel is cheaper than buying the breaker itself.

 

[matt2778]

Your neutral bars on that panel could use some help, I see several double tapped neutrals, you can double tap two grounds of the same gauge (14 an 12 wires only) but not two neutrals. I spent several hours reworking my panel for the same reason.

 

[alha]

Only thing that I can think of, is that you only have a 100a service to the panel, so in the unlikely occurrence that you are full tilt brewing in the warm summer (A/C) while doing laundry (dryer), in the evening while lights and maybe TV on, you might be getting up there in your total amp draw. I know that it will be an unlikely confluence of events, but something to consider. You still will probably have plenty of head room, but thought I'd mention it, as sometimes breakers get a little weaker as they age, and you don't want a nuisance trip on the main.