Electric brewing wattage??? Dryer outlet.

[akthor]

So I am not an electrician and I am unsure of what I am reading.

Seems you need more wattage, amps whatever than a normal house outlet provides. I think a house outlet is 120v?

I rent so I couldn't rewire the apt. But I do have a dryer with the dryer plug outlet which is I think 240v?

Help????

I guess what I want to know is can I electric brew using the dryer outlet?

I want to build an electric HLT/BK not use heat sticks.

 

[Foosinho]

Volts, amps, and watts are all related, but not interchangeable. How much power you need depends on the element you want to use to heat your water (and how quickly you want it to work drives that).

If you aren't doing all-grain, a typical dryer outlet will provide enough power to do what you want. It's typically 240V, 30A. You want to try to avoid drawing more than 80% of the available power (be safe!) for extended periods, so out of an available 7200 watts, you don't want to draw more than about 5760 watts.

A "standard" house circuit is 120V, 15A, which gives 1800 watts of power.

(You can also set up your own "standard" outlets off of that dryer plug to power any 120V accessories you need for brewing, so it's all self-contained, but I advise against doing so based on your question. Mistakes can be very dangerous with electricity.)

FWIW, I'm an electrical engineer, but I specialized in computer hardware, not power stuff, and I program supercomputers for a living. Discount my advice for that of someone more qualified if they come along.

Edit: I see now you mentioned HLT. Depending on your element choices (and if you are firing multiple elements simultaneously), you might need more than 30A. Your range, if it's electric, typically provides 50A service.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Standard Dryer outlet is 240/30A. You don't want to draw more than 80% (standard rule). This gives you 24Amps available. 240V / 24A = 5760 available watts as descirbed as above. You can do a single 4500W heat stick or element, you could do a couple 2000W ones, what ever you wanted to do. But keep in mind you don't want to have a setup that will be pulling more 24A at a single time. You could have 2 different vessels with 4500W elements for an HLT and BK, as long as you don't power them at the same time.

 

[Foosinho]

Also, if you poke around you'll see that most people have problems with a 2000W element being just powerful enough to boil. That's more power than the standard outlet can provide. Which is why you need a high amperage source.

If you get a 4.5kW element for your BK and HLT, and if you EVER fire them at the same time, you'll trip the breaker on a dryer. A range outlet, however, can safely power both with about 2.5A (@240V) to spare.

 

[IrregularPulse]

This is what I plan on doing. I've spoken with an electrician and when funds allow, will piggy back an outlet in my garage off my stove breaker. I just have to know to not use the stove while brewing. Which works out well because the wife usually does something during the day while I'm brewing and there's always the grill, smoker, and microwave if we need it. It will likely be a temporary setup until I can build a new garage and upgrade my electrical service. Then I'll remove the piggy back. It's not something I'd leave in to sell the house, but is fine since I understand the stipulation of not using the stove at the same time. If you're in an apartment, just pull the stove out a bit and unplug it. Those are 50A outlets.

 

[akthor]

I do have an electric range as well.

So how quick will I get up to boiling with a 4500W element with 10 gallon AG batches?

Having one in the HLT and one in the BK is not an issue since you wouldn't use them both at the same time anyway right?

Also if I heated the sparge water on the stove or my turkey fryer couldn't I use the HLT as the MLT as well?

 

[akthor]

Is there a place that sells the elements that specializes in brewing?

 

[rico567]

There is no such thing as an electric element specific to brewing. Elements are rated in watts as to how much heat they will generate, and the AC supply issues for a given element have been well-discussed earlier in this thread.

Some people prefer to use low-density elements rather than the standard type of electric element, because they believe it helps to avoid scorching (I think this has not been definitively proven, however). The low-density elements will also tolerate being turned on in a dry pot, whereas a standard element will burn out very quickly if energized in air.

But the electric elements that are being discussed are all designed to heat liquids (mainly water), and will all work just as well for beer. And no matter the style or configuration of the element, a watt is a watt.

 

[akthor]

Thx I found some I was just hoping there was a place that sold them and the fittings etc. that brewers use all in one place.

 

[Foosinho]

Having one in the HLT and one in the BK is not an issue since you wouldn't use them both at the same time anyway right?

Well, you need to be aware of that limitation (you'll just trip the breaker, but still - not something you want to do on purpose). Also, you might have the BK and HLT fired at the same time if you are fly sparging and start bringing your wort to a boil before the sparge is complete. (I don't brew AG yet, but I seem to remember seeing this technique being mentioned somewhere.)

 

[akthor]

I am definetly going to use the range outlet. I want to fly sparge. Is there a way to test to be sure it is 50A?

Also extension cord ok?

 

[Yooper]

I am definetly going to use the range outlet. I want to fly sparge. Is there a way to test to be sure it is 50A?

Also extension cord ok?

You'd have to get the 50A type extension cord. I had my buddy make one for me, and for 10' it was about $50 or so. You can't just use a regular extension cord.

Keep in mind you can't use the stove and the BK at the same time, also, if you're going to be using the stove outlet.

 

[akthor]

Cool thx

 

[Foosinho]

You'd have to get the 50A type extension cord. I had my buddy make one for me, and for 10' it was about $50 or so. You can't just use a regular extension cord.

You can buy a plug and some wire (flexible) of the appropriate gauge at a hardware store. Don't under-size the wire!

 

[Brewham]

Be very very careful. 220v is lethal.

 

[rico567]

I am definetly going to use the range outlet. I want to fly sparge. Is there a way to test to be sure it is 50A?

Also extension cord ok?

As sold on the Internet, the results can be curious. On Amazon, they show exactly the same Cooper receptacle (same blade configuration) for 30A and 50A. If you go to the Leviton online site, however, they show different blade configurations for 30A and 50A:

http://www.onestopbuy.com/30-Ampere-27383.asp

http://www.onestopbuy.com/50-Ampere-27384.asp

I would go by what is stamped into the receptacle itself, i.e., go down to Lowe's, Home Despot (around here Menards or Farm & Fleet would also be a good bet) and eyeball what you need. And, as always, if you don't feel comfortable with this, turn it over to a licensed, bonded professional. Electricity can kill a lot quicker than it takes me to type it.

 

[akthor]

What size wire is appropriate?

You can buy a plug and some wire (flexible) of the appropriate gauge at a hardware store. Don't under-size the wire!

 

[Yooper]

What size wire is appropriate?

Please do not take this the wrong way, as I do not mean to offend anyone.

But electricity kills, and if you don't know, you really have no business building a home-made extension cord. I do not want to see anyone killed or injured, as much as I am a do-it-yourself type myself.

Keep in mind you must also have GFCI built in, as you will be dealing with electricity (dangerous enough on its own) and water with submerged elements.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Best thing to do would be to walk into Lowes and tell them you need help building an extension cord that can plug into a dryer outlet and can handle 50A. They can give you the right size wire and receptacle. It will be an expensive cord.

 

[wildwest450]

My Lowe's only sell one 50 amp plug(4 prong), it's for a welder, very common. Also, there is an electric brewing forum now, loaded with info.

 

[Bobby_M]

You've got to stop and think about what you really want to accomplish. You can run the HLT on a basic temp controller or a PID/SSR combo. However, you'll want to be able to control the duty cycle of the BK element so that likely means getting a PID with manual mode. The best way to make sure you don't fire both elements at the same time is to use selector switch.

The easiest way to do it is to make a 4500 watt heat stick with an integrated temp sensor. This runs off a single PID/SSR controller and you just have to move it from the HLT to the BK when you're sparging.

 

[akthor]

Do I need a temp controller? Can't I turn the elements on and then off when it gets to temps? Using the themometers on the HLT and BK?

I am using the stove outlet which is 50A and is supposed to allow me to run 2 - 4500w elements at once right?

I really just want to do the electric in place of propane. Seems neater and cheaper. I don't need all the automation and digital doohickery if I don't have to have it.

What I imagine is this (simplified obviously):

Turn on HLT tank when temp gets to mashing temp turn off HLT and pump to MLT. Then turn on HLT and heat the sparge water. Pump wort from MLT to BK and then hook up pump to HLT to pump the sparge water into the MLT then hook up the pump to fly sparge. While fly sparging I start the BK. Then transfer the remaining wort to brew kettle. Do the boil. Hook up pump to whirlpool. Then pump (or gravity) into fermenter.

Two elements, one pump, two hoses with quick disconnects, quick disconnects for everything on the kegs.

My plan is to build a tool box type control box to hold the pump, have on/off switches for the elements and the pump and have the plug ins for the elements, and the extension cord from the stove. If I can't power the pump off the power coming from the stove then also the 120v plug in for the cord that will power the pump.

I know this is kind of hands on but I don't mind and I am trying to do it as cheaply and easily as possible. Is this possible or am I way off???

 

[Yooper]

Do I need a temp controller? Can't I turn the elements on and then off when it gets to temps? Using the themometers on the HLT and BK?

I am using the stove outlet which is 50A and is supposed to allow me to run 2 - 4500w elements at once right?

I really just want to do the electric in place of propane. Seems neater and cheaper. I don't need all the automation and digital doohickery if I don't have to have it.

What I imagine is this (simplified obviously):

Turn on HLT tank when temp gets to mashing temp turn off HLT and pump to MLT. Then turn on HLT and heat the sparge water. Pump wort from MLT to BK and then hook up pump to HLT to pump the sparge water into the MLT then hook up the pump to fly sparge. While fly sparging I start the BK. Then transfer the remaining wort to brew kettle. Do the boil. Hook up pump to whirlpool. Then pump (or gravity) into fermenter.

Two elements, one pump, two hoses with quick disconnects, quick disconnects for everything on the kegs.

My plan is to build a tool box type control box to hold the pump, have on/off switches for the elements and the pump and have the plug ins for the elements, and the extension cord from the stove. If I can't power the pump off the power coming from the stove then also the 120v plug in for the cord that will power the pump.

I know this is kind of hands on but I don't mind and I am trying to do it as cheaply and easily as possible. Is this possible or am I way off???

What about GFCI protection?

If you're going to gravity drain the MLT, you can get by with one pump so that should work. I only have one pump on my system. You can't pump from the MLT and from the HLT at the same time with one pump, obviously, so fly sparging would be out unless you're gravity draining.

I have a PID/SSR set up with switches. I can turn off each item on a switch. I don't have one bit of electronic gadgetry I don't need. No automation, etc.

 

[Foosinho]

I know this is kind of hands on but I don't mind and I am trying to do it as cheaply and easily as possible. Is this possible or am I way off???

Possible, but I would advise, based on your questions, that you take this very very slowly. Don't build anything until you have a complete understanding of what's going on. Household 220V is extremely dangerous. Read read read, ask questions, understand exactly how everything works, before you even start buying the parts. If you have ANY doubts, hire an electrician to wire up the high voltage stuff for you. Better safe than dead.

To answer your wire gauge question, you need 4 conductor 6 awg wire (6/4 wire). The cost will probably run north of $5/ft.

BTW, I've got an electrical engineering degree, and I have some experience with this stuff, but I triple check EVERYTHING before I touch household voltage lines (is the breaker off? Am I sure? Have I checked the lines for current? Can I do this with one hand (to avoid the chance of a short across my heart)?). I basically treat this stuff with as much care as I do firearms. Don't be in a hurry. I'm a DIY kind of guy myself, but you literally can't be too careful with electricity. It pays to be a perfectionist.

 

[Bobby_M]

You'll need power control finer than on/off for the boil kettle element. 4500 watts is great to get up to a boil fast but from reading everyone elses experience with eBKs, it only takes around 2000 watts to maintain a good boil. It amounts to having at least a basic PWM to SSR combo to dial down the duty cycle to 50% or so.

Since you'd have the ability at that point to set a temperature goal, it just makes sense to set the HLT to 175F and go make some coffee. I'm still running fully manually via gas and I overshoot my temps at least half the time I brew.

 

[shuie]

What about GFCI protection?

^ This.

I'm almost done with my Brutus20/Simple style eBrewery. My original idea was to use my dryer connection, but I decided to have an electrician wire a dedicated 30A GFI to a 240V receptacle in my brewing area in the garage. This work alone is costing me almost as much as all of the parts for my system, but I can't imagine operating an electric homebrew rig without the GFI.

 

[Bobby_M]

The cheapest 50a gfi is the $50 spa panel at Homedepot.

 

[akthor]

So I add a GFCI panel to my toolbox for safety? Is that ok? Or is it something different?

Is my process correct above? Can I brew like that turning the elements on and off as needed?

The cheapest 50a gfi is the $50 spa panel at Homedepot.

 

[akthor]

OK I looked at the spa panel at HD. How would I incorporate that? Plug from stove outlet into panel then out from panel into control box?

 

[akthor]

Not an option I am a renter

^ This.

I'm almost done with my Brutus20/Simple style eBrewery. My original idea was to use my dryer connection, but I decided to have an electrician wire a dedicated 30A GFI to a 240V receptacle in my brewing area in the garage. This work alone is costing me almost as much as all of the parts for my system, but I can't imagine operating an electric homebrew rig without the GFI.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I do have an electric range as well.

So how quick will I get up to boiling with a 4500W element with 10 gallon AG batches?

I turn on the boil kettle when the element and probe are submerged in runoff, and it's boiling before the sparge is over. 4500W is plenty for 10 gal batches.

Having one in the HLT and one in the BK is not an issue since you wouldn't use them both at the same time anyway right?

You don't have to, however I do, and I love it. It's a really nice option if you have the available power to wire it that way.

TB

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Is there a way to test to be sure it is 50A?

It should say on the breaker in the service panel. Should read something like "RANGE 240V" on the sticker, and "30" or "50" on the breaker itself. Check if it's GFCI, too.

TB

 

[akthor]

I am in a 3 unit apt. building not even sure the breaker box is in MY basement. I will go look.

 

[IrregularPulse]

So I add a GFCI panel to my toolbox for safety? Is that ok? Or is it something different?

Is my process correct above? Can I brew like that turning the elements on and off as needed?

Like Bobby said above, 4500 will help you come to a boil in a goof amount of time, but will be overkill maintaining. You'll have a crazy boil with a lot of evaporation. Buy a PID with manual mode and a temp sensor. You can set to manual mode for the BK and once you reach boil turn the duty cycle down to ~%70. Unless you want to sit there for an hour and flip a switch on/off/on/off/on/off every half second and hope to keep a rhythm and maintain a boil. If you want to just turn on and off, then instead of doing a single 4500W element, you should just build to 2000W heat sticks. put them both in the boil, then once you come to a boil, unplug one and remove it. For the level of simplicty you're looking at, 2 2000W heat sticks sounds like your best option. Then as long as you have 20A outlets in your kitchen, you can just plug them into your standard outlets. Making sure each is a different circuit.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Do I need a temp controller? Can't I turn the elements on and then off when it gets to temps? Using the themometers on the HLT and BK?

I am using the stove outlet which is 50A and is supposed to allow me to run 2 - 4500w elements at once right?

I really just want to do the electric in place of propane. Seems neater and cheaper. I don't need all the automation and digital doohickery if I don't have to have it.

What I imagine is this (simplified obviously):

Turn on HLT tank when temp gets to mashing temp turn off HLT and pump to MLT. Then turn on HLT and heat the sparge water. Pump wort from MLT to BK and then hook up pump to HLT to pump the sparge water into the MLT then hook up the pump to fly sparge. While fly sparging I start the BK. Then transfer the remaining wort to brew kettle. Do the boil. Hook up pump to whirlpool. Then pump (or gravity) into fermenter.

Two elements, one pump, two hoses with quick disconnects, quick disconnects for everything on the kegs.

My plan is to build a tool box type control box to hold the pump, have on/off switches for the elements and the pump and have the plug ins for the elements, and the extension cord from the stove. If I can't power the pump off the power coming from the stove then also the 120v plug in for the cord that will power the pump.

I know this is kind of hands on but I don't mind and I am trying to do it as cheaply and easily as possible. Is this possible or am I way off???

After reading this post here, I'm not so sure you should be starting this build quite yet. Sounds like you have a lot of research to do first. Not only about home electrical wiring, but about electrical components used by brewers. I really don't want to read about you in the paper being found fried to a crisp in your apartment.

I am in a 3 unit apt. building not even sure the breaker box is in MY basement. I will go look.

It is absolutely imperative that you know exactly what you're plugging into. Yes, please do check, and/or ask the superintendent to check/verify before you start building anything.

 

[IrregularPulse]

And make sure you have good renter's insurance for when you burn down the apartment complex

 

[akthor]

Can I just install two 2000w elements in my BK?

Also would having one in my HLT get it up to mashing temps ok?

The elements are dirt cheap so I'm good with putting 2 in the BK and 2 in the HLT wired to their own on/off switches. Then turning them on and off as neccessary. Especially if I can use normal 120v outlets. Seems it would solve a lot of headaches.

I don't know what a PID is or where to come by one. Is there a place to buy one all set up to like you say or do I need to buy all the parts and build one?

I admit I don't have a lot of understanding about the electrical stuff which is why I am trying to KISS it as much as possible. Once I know what I want I got a buddy who is an electrician and I will probably have him get all the parts (since he gets discounts) and put the controls together and make whatever cords I need. I will be installing the elements in the pots and the pump into the toolbox which will mean just attaching the wires as per what other more knowledgeable people will tell me.

I will not buy anything or build or plug in anything till it is safe and right.

Like Bobby said above, 4500 will help you come to a boil in a goof amount of time, but will be overkill maintaining. You'll have a crazy boil with a lot of evaporation. Buy a PID with manual mode and a temp sensor. You can set to manual mode for the BK and once you reach boil turn the duty cycle down to ~%70. Unless you want to sit there for an hour and flip a switch on/off/on/off/on/off every half second and hope to keep a rhythm and maintain a boil. If you want to just turn on and off, then instead of doing a single 4500W element, you should just build to 2000W heat sticks. put them both in the boil, then once you come to a boil, unplug one and remove it. For the level of simplicty you're looking at, 2 2000W heat sticks sounds like your best option. Then as long as you have 20A outlets in your kitchen, you can just plug them into your standard outlets. Making sure each is a different circuit.

 

[akthor]

Anybody?

 

[Yooper]

Anybody?

We'll given you plenty of good advice- the GFI is crucial, and doing it correctly is crucial. Talk to your electrician friend, as you don't seem to be understanding what we're telling you.

 

[IrregularPulse]

The KISS method would be to build 2 2000W heat sticks. Those can then be moved to each pot as needed. Just plug them in to outlets on separate 20A breakers.