Effectiveness of campden

[tahoehomebrewer]

Hi all,
I did some searching on this and didn't find much so hopefully I didn't overlook an obvious glut of information on this subject.

After reading The MadFermentationist's blog on his use of campden to stop the Brett in his Courage RIS clone I was curious, since I like making wild beers but not the hassle of extra equipment (which I have) and risk of infecting other batches. I tried this with a dark saison that I added a pack of WY Lambic Blend to, let it go for about a year, and then after adding campden and letting it sit for a couple days, siphoned to a keg, drank it and have had no issues with contaminating other batches of clean beer using the same equipment afterward.

I currently have a Saison Brett going and a Flanders Red and when the time comes that I finally sample them if they are where I want them it would be great if I can add some campden tabs to kill the beasts and basically lock in that flavor profile, then transfer to a keg without worrying about cross contamination. (Simplifying processes while consistently improving quality is the name of the game for me these days.)

So I would like to know if others here have tried this and if so was it successful? Any tips/advice/words of caution?

Thanks!!

 

[Qhrumphf]

I don't know if, in the populations present in a sour/wild beer, Campden will be enough to kill them off. I'm guessing your lack of cross contamination had more to do with proper cleaning and sanitizing than it did with metabite.

 

[tahoehomebrewer]

Good point. For all equipment used I did immediately rinse and gave a lengthy soak in PBW then StarSan and Iodiphor following transfer, and I always flush PBW and Star San through my keg/tap between batches but didn't swap out the O rings. Based on the wide array of opinions on soft equipment being "impossible" to clean properly in such a situation I am still left curious as to others experience. I see you have a mix of clean and sour beers going. What's your approach?

 

[sweetcell]

Based on the wide array of opinions on soft equipment being "impossible" to clean properly in such a situation

that statement applies to bacteria. they are smaller than yeast so are harder to clean/sanitize.

brett is a yeast. it can be killed just like regular yeast.

the reason why people, especially pro brewers, freak out about brett is that it only takes a small amount to infect a beer. brett can survive and make an impact in ways that a cross-sacch contamination can never do.

 

[tahoehomebrewer]

Also good points. And if that is the case (and I say this not in a doubtful way because I have no evidence to refute the statement) that Brett can be killed off just as easily as Sacc yeast strains then it seems there is widespread misconception about that in the homebrewing community as it seems many people are afraid of using Brett or shared Brett/Sacc equipment due to fear of inevitable contamination of future batches by Brett residing in their equipment. Brett may be resilient but if proper cleaning and sanitizing can kill it then it shouldn't be as much of a concern as it seems to be. However I'm still left with the same question, would campden be effective at killing Brett and/or a mixed culture in the carboy and thus eliminating the risk of contamination thereafter? And, has anyone tried this and if so what were the results?

 

[sweetcell]

And if that is the case (and I say this not in a doubtful way because I have no evidence to refute the statement) that Brett can be killed off just as easily as Sacc yeast strains then it seems there is widespread misconception about that in the homebrewing community as it seems many people are afraid of using Brett or shared Brett/Sacc equipment due to fear of inevitable contamination of future batches by Brett residing in their equipment. Brett may be resilient but if proper cleaning and sanitizing can kill it then it shouldn't be as much of a concern as it seems to be.

brett/sacch cross-contamination isn't inevitable. brewers should be able to clean it. but the risk is high if you fail. leave a few cells behind - easy to do - and next thing you know your bottles start to explode or your pilsner starts tasting like horse blanket. if you get a little english ale yeast into your belgian pale ale, you'll never notice (your pitched belgian strain will outnumber the english strain by several orders of magnitude, ale strains generally ferment the same sugars, etc). so you might drink that BPA and pat yourself on the back for your sanitation practices but in fact there might be some cross contamination in there. you just can't taste it because it's ale-to-ale. move to a minor brett infection, and the brett can ferment the residual sugars, transform the esters, etc...

so can you sanitize for brett? likely, but it's risky. there is always a chance you missed a nook in your bottling bucket's spigot, or in the racking cane, etc. personally i don't think it's worth running the risk and i have the space to store extra equipment.

if you decide to use the same soft equipment for sacch and brett, please let us know how it goes. perhaps i'm being paranoid and overly cautious.

However I'm still left with the same question, would campden be effective at killing Brett and/or a mixed culture in the carboy and thus eliminating the risk of contamination thereafter? And, has anyone tried this and if so what were the results?

i would love to know too. i'd be concerned that the sulfur that is created, which kills the microorganisms, isn't fully distributed throughout the beer. for example, bugs hiding inside the yeast cake or under a layer of crud might be able to survive.

 

[mitchard]

Another auto siphon, a couple feet of tubing, and a wine thief costs less than a lost batch of beer in most cases. Toss on an extra bottling bucket and you're golden. I have separate gear for clean vs mixed, and will soon be retiring my clean to Brett only. Unless you are using plastic fermenters, thats really all you need as far as cold side goes. Worth the small investment in my opinion.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

I don't think campden actually kills anything. I think it just stops the little buggers from procreating...

 

[mitchard]

Yeah, it doesn't really kill anything to my knowledge. Just creates an environment that isn't very hospitable to deter growth of unwanted organisms.

 

[Agate]

Just something to consider, if you're concerned with sharing equipment between brett and sacch, you probably should be separating saison yeast from most others as well. A saison infection in your English ale will ruin your day just as much as brett.

But if you're ok with using the same equipment for saison and other strains... You really shouldn't be all that concerned about brett, either. Food for thought.

 

[Sasper]

I don't think campden actually kills anything. I think it just stops the little buggers from procreating...

Potassium Sorbate stops yeast from reproducing. Campden or Potassium Metabisulfite is for killing wild yeast and bacteria. It is often used in conjunction with Sorbate for stabilizing wine and mead with residual sugar because lacto can metabolize Sorbate creating geranium off flavors. Most wine yeast have sulfite tolerances. I'd assume ale yeast does to a point as well. I have had ale yeast metabolize sulfite and produce hydrogen sulfide as well. Sulfite is used often to sanitize musts of wild things before pitching Sacch strains. Especially useful with fresh pressed cider or grape juice.

 

[tahoehomebrewer]

Great to get all this feedback as I feel like there is some potential here to open up opportunities for homebrewers here who may be intimidated to work with mixed cultures. Not just in terms of equipment handling (although I do agree that having an extra siphon, air locks, etc. creates a small reasonable expense that is widely viewed as a worthwhile investment, which I have made myself) but also in terms of hitting your preferred sweet spot with a flavor profile on a wild beer and serving it in that state (such as Lauren Salazar's position on filtering New Belgium's "wild" beers, perhaps outdated now, I don't know). For example, I have a few kegs and would gladly have one for wild beers, or imperials, that I could slowly work my way through without significant changes to the beer over time and reduced concern of improperly funking up say an imperial coconut stout after serving a Flanders red. Or for those who bottle wild beers, like many do, if you can greatly reduce the risk of gushers/grenades
by killing the wild beasts, hit your target and carb with priming sugar and wine yeast then you could significantly improve your odds of success. I hope we continue to get more feedback on this subject but at this point I think I will try this with my Saison Brett and Flanders Red with cautious optimism that it just might work. If it does than it would certainly help me with my goal of simplifying processes while broadening my range of beers with improved quality. These brews are a few months out from completion though so if anyone else wants to add to the conversation in the meantime that would be great!

 

[tahoehomebrewer]

I suppose I should add that I am not against beers evolving over time. Although I usually keg these days I do have a variety of beers I've made over the past decade that I have enjoyed seeing change in the bottle over the years. Some have been much better after several years in the bottle but that's just not the purpose of this discussion.