dry yeast

[nathanscrivener]

I think the dry yeast FAQ that is pinned needs to be updated.

I know of at least two yeast manufacturers that recommend direct pitch over re-hydration on some of their yeasts. For example, lallemand voss kveik is said to have reduced lag time and better fermentation performance when direct pitched. I have also recently been discussing this with an employee at Fermentis who told me that using W-34/70 all of their recent pilot trials were direct pitch and this is preferable for this yeast.

I understand the arguments for rehydration but suspect, like many things in the Homebrew world, there may be as much lore as actual, verifiable science to the various arguments in favour of rehydration. That's not to say that it wouldn't be preferable in some situations, but I think that it is time to remove advice that rehydration is universally preferable. It is not.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

It should be easy... just follow the directions on the pack.

 

[nathanscrivener]

p.s this is the direct words in an email I received:

"All our studies are done on direct pitching, we do not rehydrate, unless its something like F2 or an enzyme mixture.

We have also done a lot of studies on this specific thing, and no negatives have been observed with direct pitch, it performs as well or better than rehydrating. Plus it reduces a variable (another step; rehydration), which can introduce problems itself if done incorrectly. Note that not all yeast can necessarily be used this way, it depends on the processing methods of each manufacturer which influences things like, yeast health & vitality, ability to disperse etc…"

 

[AJinJacksonville]

When I use dry yeast I typically just pitch it. For S&G's on the "Lallemand Premium" yeast I just pitched a couple of weeks ago, I rehydrated it in sterile water and then pitched it (following the directions on the pouch). I agree with the potential for contamination adding those extra steps, but it did seem like the yeast started working faster. Who knows. I'm a rule follower though...to a fault almost. If this one turns out well, I will make it again and repitch with the same yeast without rehydrating and see if I notice a difference in fermentation or taste.

 

[nathanscrivener]

When I use dry yeast I typically just pitch it. For S&G's on the "Lallemand Premium" yeast I just pitched a couple of weeks ago, I rehydrated it in sterile water and then pitched it (following the directions on the pouch). I agree with the potential for contamination adding those extra steps, but it did seem like the yeast started working faster. Who knows. I'm a rule follower though...to a fault almost. If this one turns out well, I will make it again and repitch with the same yeast without rehydrating and see if I notice a difference in fermentation or taste.

I think it's still right to follow the manufacturer instructions. My comment was in regards to the sticky on this forum which states unequivocally that rehydration is the way to go. As noted, it comes down to multiple variables which include the particular strain of yeast and the way the manufacturer has processed it.

 

[AJinJacksonville]

I saw it and know exactly what you mean. I concur. Hadn't even read the sticky before you posted about it though . I'm a lazy rule follower.

 

[VikeMan]

With dry yeast, there's only one thing I'm sure about. That is whatever the current manufacturer's recommendations are, you can find conflicting information on their web site, the packaging, or in email responses to questions. That goes for sprinkling vs rehydration, for specific rehydration instructions (wort vs. water, and temperatures), and for recommended fermentation temperature ranges. Maybe they are now zeroing in on the best practices after all these years. I hope so.

 

[day_trippr]

lol! That has "Fermentis" written all over it

Cheers!

 

[AJinJacksonville]

If you think that's bad...get into beekeeping. Ask a question, you'll get 224 'scientifically correct' responses from 'experts.' Honey doesn't make my insides feel warm and fuzzy though.

 

[VikeMan]

If you think that's bad...get into beekeeping. Ask a question, you'll get 224 'scientifically correct' responses from 'experts.' Honey doesn't make my insides feel warm and fuzzy though.

But to make the analogy perfect, you'd have to get 224 scientifically correct answers from the same beekeeper.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... which include the particular strain of yeast and the way the manufacturer has processed it.

This is worth repeating, so I will

... which include the particular strain of yeast and the way the manufacturer has processed it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With dry yeast, there's only one thing I'm sure about. That is whatever the current manufacturer's recommendations are, you can find conflicting information on their web site, the packaging, or in email responses to questions. That goes for sprinkling vs rehydration, for specific rehydration instructions (wort vs. water, and temperatures), and for recommended fermentation temperature ranges. Maybe they are now zeroing in on the best practices after all these years. I hope so.

With regard to dry yeast, a number of years ago a pro brewer suggested to me to "treat each dry yeast as unique".

Apply this piece of advice from Fermentis:

We strongly advise users to make fermentation trials before any commercial usage of our products.

to clear up any "loose ends" with regard to conflicting information.

Product information isn't perfect. And across two (maybe more) dry yeast labs and multiple brands of yeasts (some clearly from yeast labs, some clearly repackaged, some in between), it's hard to see where there will be a single set of instructions for dry yeast.

 

[VikeMan]

Product information isn't perfect. And across two (maybe more) dry yeast labs and multiple brands of yeasts (some clearly from yeast labs, some clearly repackaged, some in between), it's hard to see where there will be a single set of instructions for dry yeast.

I'm not expecting that. But it would be nice to have consistency from one particular manufacturer, even for a single strain.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But it would be nice to have consistency from one particular manufacturer, even for a single strain.

Sorry, I'm not seeing what you're seeing (and with regard to "rehydration vs sprinkling", product information sheets (and web sites) for the strains I use say "either" works).

 

[VikeMan]

Sorry, I'm not seeing what you're seeing (and with regard to "rehydration vs sprinkling", product information sheets (and web sites) for the strains I use say "either" works).

An example (a subset of the kind of stuff I've seen), from two different places on the Fermentis site, both pulled just now, both for 34/70. Some differences in bold/underline...

https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/saflager-w-3470/
① Direct pitching:

easy to use

Pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel on the surface of the wort at or above the fermentation temperature. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available to avoid clumps. Ideally, the yeast will be added during the first part of the filling of the vessel; in which case hydration can be done at wort temperature higher than fermentation temperature, the fermenter being then filled with wort at lower temperature to bring the entire wort temperature at fermentation temperature.

② With prior rehydration:

Alternatively, sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or boiled and hopped wort at 15 to 25°C (59°F to 77°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes, gently stir and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/SafLager-W-3470.pdf
REHYDRATION INSTRUCTIONS:
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 21 to 25 °C (70°F to 77°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively
sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes,
then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So either rehydrate or (alternatively) pitch directly (which IIRC, was the point behind someones E2U campaign - you have a choice).

What's inconsistent about offering two good choices?

 

[VikeMan]

So either rehydrate or (alternatively) pitch directly (which IIRC, was the point behind someones E2U campaign - you have a choice).

What's inconsistent about offering two good choices?

In this case, nothing. But read the two different versions of the instructions for each.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The PDF you are directly referencing appears to have been updated in Dec 2017: see the phrase "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET -SafLager™ W-3470 -Rev EC2017" near the bottom of the PDF. Those instructions may predate the E2U program (launched in 2018).

 

[VikeMan]

The PDF you are directly referencing appears to have been updated in Dec 2017: see the phrase "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET -SafLager™ W-3470 -Rev EC2017" near the bottom of the PDF. Those instructions may predate the E2U program (launched in 2018).

I'm sure you're right. Yet it's live, on the web site. I just googled "34/70 yeast" and the .pdf is the first Fermentis URL that appears.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Current dry yeast product information, direct from the yeast providers web site:

https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/

https://fermentis.com/en/tips-n-tricks/questions-and-answers/

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/products/brewing-yeast/

https://mangrovejacks.com/collections/craft-series-yeasts

https://www.crossmyloofbrew.co.uk/yeast-specs

 

[VikeMan]

I feel my point has been missed. But that's okay. I feel better.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Two documents, written at different points in time (one undated, one written before the E2U campaign), appear to contain different instructions.

Seems to me that the confusion exists only because two documents are being compared.

Personally, when starting with a new (to me) strain, I start at the vendors web site (see #20) to get a single source of current information.

 

[Dancy]

I understand the arguments for rehydration but suspect, like many things in the Homebrew world, there may be as much lore as actual, verifiable science to the various arguments in favour of rehydration.

Thank you for this — and also thanks to the others posting as well. As one who brews 5 gallon AG batches in my small condo kitchen via induction I really do not like adding unneeded steps to the brewing process.

 

[Everhard]

So I've been brewing ag for a few years, but never used dry yeast, till now. My second last batch I used fermentis WB-06 - I didn't see when it kicked off but I brewed on a monday (sprinkled the yeast in the half full fermenter then finished filling it, this was mid afternoon) and by the following Friday taking a reading it was one point off my expected FG (didn't see any activity in the airlock hence taking a reading) and then on Sunday I kegged it, and the FG was now actually one point lower(better) then expected. So suffice to say that fermented well, and the beer tastes great.

Onto my last brew... Done last Sunday, same process, and as of today I'm still not seeing any action. Lallemand London ESB dry yeast.
I'm hoping it's just taking it's sweet ole time and will kick off soon!!!
Just to be clear in both cases I did NOT re-hydrate the yeast first.
I actively chose not to re-hydrate after much reading etc... perhaps a poor choice? I dunno. I've another brew I'm going to do using Fermentis US-05 and my plan was to not re-hydrate. Now I'm unsure! Lol.

 

[AJinJacksonville]

Was it one of the Lallemand "Premium Series" yeasts that has directions to rehydrate on the packaging? I had not used the "Premium" dry yeast before...not sure if they encourage rehydrating on all of their yeasts or just the "Premium." Now wondering what makes it "Premium," and trying to see how many times I will type ""Premium"" in this post.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Onto my last brew... Done last Sunday, same process, and as of today I'm still not seeing any action.

How are you visually measuring activity?

 

[Everhard]

Doesn't say premium but yes it does say to hydrate which I ignored.
My visual test is simply airlock activity or the lack of. Normally I don't rush it anyway and give it 2 weeks minimum to ferment. But I made a new fermenter that I can easily pull off a sample without disturbing it so I'm happy to do that. So outta curiosity that's what I did, found I was close to done, gave it the couple extra days and all good.
Anyway the real question will be if the current beer finally kicks off. Personally I prefer the idea of not rehydrating given it means less work for me and less chance for something to go wrong. But if this is going to be the result I guess I will be rehydrating!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My visual test is simply airlock activity or the lack of.

Lack of airlock activity may also be due to fermentation gases leaking out in other places - so it's possible that fermentation is proceeding without problems.

Lallemand has a rehydration guide (download link is on the rehydration tab on "https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/products/brewing-yeast/") which mentions that sprinkling dry can be an option in some usage scenarios - although my take on their instructions is that they prefer rehydration in many usage scenarios.

With regards to US-05, Fermentis has a "tips and tricks" brochure which includes a graph on typical fermentation times for their yeast. US-05 is a slow starter.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

An example (a subset of the kind of stuff I've seen), from two different places on the Fermentis site, both pulled just now, both for 34/70. Some differences in bold/underline...

https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/saflager-w-3470/
① Direct pitching:

easy to use

Pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel on the surface of the wort at or above the fermentation temperature. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available to avoid clumps. Ideally, the yeast will be added during the first part of the filling of the vessel; in which case hydration can be done at wort temperature higher than fermentation temperature, the fermenter being then filled with wort at lower temperature to bring the entire wort temperature at fermentation temperature.

② With prior rehydration:

Alternatively, sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or boiled and hopped wort at 15 to 25°C (59°F to 77°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes, gently stir and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/SafLager-W-3470.pdf
REHYDRATION INSTRUCTIONS:
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 21 to 25 °C (70°F to 77°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively
sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes,
then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.

LOL so it sounds like whatever works.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

LOL so it sounds like whatever works.

Not exactly, but pitching dry yeast doesn't have to be as complicated as "forum wisdom" seems to think it is.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I've used dry yeast both ways and never had an issue.

 

[Everhard]

Well almost 5 days later and no fermentation has kicked off yet... I'm starting to get less hopeful... I've only once had a yeast take forever to kick off (Not a dry yeast) but I it did after 5 days. I sure hope this does work - end of last year I finally got my own electric brewery up and running, and given it was made by yours truly and not an out the box system there's been plenty of challenges to overcome. But this last brew went pretty much successful from beginning to end, so I was really looking forward to the outcome! Sure hope I don't end up pitching it out.
I do have the US-05 I could try throwing on it to see if that goes. But will that be throwing good after bad! Trials and tribulations.
One thing I will say is the Lallemand London ESB package stated expiry this fall (I'd have to get the empty package to confirm that actual date) and the package looked worn. But it was still properly sealed and the yeast was dry when it came out. Maybe I'm grasping at straws here thinking the yeast was getting closer to its expiry.

E.

 

[Dland]

I would not hesitate to pitch in that pack of US-05 if I had some wort sitting around that long that was not working.

Since I'm here, I'll add my observations: Just brewed batch number 95 with current all grain set up. Most of those were dry pitch Fermentis, dry pitched directly of wort after cooling, never any starter for the dry pitch. The other batches were wort put on yeast cake or active krusen pitched on working Fermentis yeasts, in these cases I also oxyegenate. The only one that did not get going and had to be re pitched (with US-05) was a liquid Krolsh yeast that probably got too warm in shipping, one of the two wet packs I have used.

I'll add, I did notice Lallimand dry does specify making a starter, which is why I've never bothered with it, when fermentis products work.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Everhard, have you checked the gravity? I've had beers that I thought were not fermenting but after taking a gravity reading found that they were.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Well almost 5 days later and no fermentation has kicked off yet... I'm starting to get less hopeful... I've only once had a yeast take forever to kick off (Not a dry yeast) but I it did after 5 days. I sure hope this does work - end of last year I finally got my own electric brewery up and running, and given it was made by yours truly and not an out the box system there's been plenty of challenges to overcome. But this last brew went pretty much successful from beginning to end, so I was really looking forward to the outcome! Sure hope I don't end up pitching it out.
I do have the US-05 I could try throwing on it to see if that goes. But will that be throwing good after bad! Trials and tribulations.
One thing I will say is the Lallemand London ESB package stated expiry this fall (I'd have to get the empty package to confirm that actual date) and the package looked worn. But it was still properly sealed and the yeast was dry when it came out. Maybe I'm grasping at straws here thinking the yeast was getting closer to its expiry.

back in #27 you mentioned you were using airlock activity (or the lack of) to measure fermentation activity. This approach is well known to not be sufficient.

It's possible that a specific gravity reading will confirm that fermentation has been active. It's equally possible that, given the worn look of the package, that the package may have been handled improperly, the yeast compromised, and fermentation didn't start.

 

[Everhard]

I was planning on taking a reading - agreed that there might have been fermentation that I somehow missed. Looking at the actual contents it doesn't look like it fermented but maybe I'm wrong! Anyway that is my plan and then if it hasn't fermented I'll throw that other yeast at it and see what happens. fingers crossed...

 

[bracconiere]

holy jesus, had to skim...but with prices of yeast what they are, why not pitch dry into a starter wort...and only use like 1/4 pack of yeast? best of both worlds!

 

[Everhard]

Well here's me embarrassed but also happy. Took reading yesterday afternoon (6 days since pitching) reading 1.023 - needs to get down to 1.017 ideally but even 1.020 will be totally fine.
So it must have fermented like crazy on the Monday when I couldn't inspect it and by the time I got to it Tuesday afternoon it had already done the bulk of it.

So. The reason I first posted in this thread - How to pitching dry yeast and is re-hydration required? (per the sticky)I thought originally my yeast hadn't actually fired up so I thought the problem was my not re-hydrating the yeast but in fact it had fired up really quickly and vigorously.
As I've mentioned earlier I did a bunch of research which led me to not re-hydrating first. So I'm now a whole 2 for 2 brews that the yeast fired up very well it seems. (Lol and hopefully this one finishes up well too! ) Anyway 2 brews are of course hardly enough to indicate that re-hydrating isn't required but for now I'm going to continue brewing like that. So add my vote to considering changing the sticky on dry yeast.
I'll add that soon I'll be doing a 10gal batch which I will split between 2 fermenters and I think for fun I'll try re-hydrating yeast for one and not the other.

E.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Well here's me embarrassed but also happy. Took reading yesterday afternoon (6 days since pitching) reading 1.023 - needs to get down to 1.017 ideally but even 1.020 will be totally fine.
So it must have fermented like crazy on the Monday when I couldn't inspect it and by the time I got to it Tuesday afternoon it had already done the bulk of it.

So. The reason I first posted in this thread - How to pitching dry yeast and is re-hydration required? (per the sticky)I thought originally my yeast hadn't actually fired up so I thought the problem was my not re-hydrating the yeast but in fact it had fired up really quickly and vigorously.
As I've mentioned earlier I did a bunch of research which led me to not re-hydrating first. So I'm now a whole 2 for 2 brews that the yeast fired up very well it seems. (Lol and hopefully this one finishes up well too! ) Anyway 2 brews are of course hardly enough to indicate that re-hydrating isn't required but for now I'm going to continue brewing like that. So add my vote to considering changing the sticky on dry yeast.
I'll add that soon I'll be doing a 10gal batch which I will split between 2 fermenters and I think for fun I'll try re-hydrating yeast for one and not the other.

E.

Question: Was there foam on top of the wort when you thought there was no action?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

fermentis WB-06

Took reading yesterday afternoon (6 days since pitching) reading 1.023 - needs to get down to 1.017 ideally but even 1.020 will be totally fine.

It's probably not done yet. From Tips and Tricks brochure at Beer fermentation tips and tricks | only for brewers, p 28.