Dry to liquid

[beerd]

Hi all -

I have brewed ~10 batches so far - all pitching dry yeast without re-hydrating. (US-04, Belle Saison, w34/70, several US-05). Everything has come out OK - not a drop spilt out in disgust or disappointment, so far anyway. I am looking for a good exercise to test out what, if anything, I personally am missing by not yet having tried liquid yeast. I know there are different schools of thought, so not trying to debate either way, just looking for some suggestions on something I could try that would draw out the differences (or not) for my palette. I have done a couple wheat beers and pale ales with US-05 - should I try the same recipe with a similar liquid yeast to see if I notice a change? If so, which one?

Or are there just certain styles or recipies for which there's not a good dry yeast match?

I guess too maybe just looking for your own specific experience that moved you to using liquid yeast and/or starters - something I could replicate on my end and see if it's noticeable for me as well.

Thanks!

 

[waldoar15]

To me, it's just the variety that's available in liquids. I'd probably use more dry if I could find it in the strains I was interested in.

 

[day_trippr]

Agreed, that's pretty much the summation of the situation.
If there was a dry version of every strain I use that produced as good a result I'd likely go all dry in the assumption the cost would be lower and "shelf life" would be a lot easier to manage...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

I love using liquid yeast. The variety and quality is just superb, there's a big yeast world out there, ready to be explored, don't miss out!

You can't tell how viable and vital the yeast in that sleeve or pouch is or how it was handled and what conditions it was exposed to before you received it. The packaging date or "best by" date (typically 6 months after packaging) are just that, mere dates, given you an indication of her age, not her treatment during.

Rule #1: With liquid yeast, always make a starter, to:

1. Prove viability
2. Increase vitality while growing more healthy cells, and
3. Save some out, to make another starter from next time, and so on (yeast ranching)

Rule #2: Read up on yeast handling, storage, starters, etc. as much as you can.

Rule #3: Use a yeast calculator to estimate viability, cell counts, and pitch rates:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
Mr. Malty

Take one of your favorite beer recipes and use a suitable liquid yeast. See what it does for you.

 

[beerd]

Thanks for the input all. Much appreciated. I am definitely reading up on starters,etc before I try anything with the hope of doing it as close to "right" as possible the first time.

So, given the comments, it seems like just trying, say, my pale ale recipe with 1056 instead of US-05 might not jump out at me as terribly different - particularly as I'm also still also working on building out my palate as well.

Given how easy dry yeast is and how lazy I am, I am looking for something that really illustrates the point on the first outing.

I have made a few batches of american wheat that's come out pretty well with US-05. Do you think something like wyeast 1010 might be a good sub to get some noticeable difference? Or possibly some liquid saison variety that compares to belle saison but would be noticeably different?

Also obviously looking for an 'easier' one to start - i.e. not prone to stalling or whatever.

Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

So, given the comments, it seems like just trying, say, my pale ale recipe with 1056 instead of US-05 might not jump out at me as terribly different - particularly as I'm also still also working on building out my palate as well.

Yeah, that difference is fairly subtle. They're based on the same strain, Chico, from Sierra Nevada Brewing Company. Chances are flavor differences due to process variations may exceed those from yeast contributions.

I've read people preferring WY1056 over US-05, especially when fermenting at low(er) temps. US-05 can become surprisingly "peachy" when fermenting under 66F.

Given how easy dry yeast is and how lazy I am

That doesn't sound like a compelling argument to get into liquid yeasts. They need some planning, some prep time, some tinkering, and some patience.

First, unless you have a local source to buy from (a well stocked LHBS), you need to plan well ahead what you need in the next few weeks or even months. It's best not to mail order/ship yeast during more extreme temps on the shipping route as sitting in a boiling hot or deep frozen truck for a few days, over a weekend, or even a week can be detrimental to liquid yeast. She's a living organism!

Second, you need to make a starter, (well) ahead of brewing day.
That entails preparing (boiling and chilling) starter wort, cleaning and sanitizing a suitable "starter" vessel to pitch the yeast pack into it.
This is followed by a few days (sometimes a week) of intermittent swirling (on countertop), shaking (on a mechanical shaker or by hand) or stirring (on a stir plate). Then either pitch the whole shebang into your brewed batch, leaving 10-20% behind to make a new starter from for a next batch, or cold crash in the fridge for a few days (to a week, or longer), to let the yeast settle out, pouring off the supernatant (spent beer on top), and pitch the leftover slurry. Again keeping some behind for a next batch.

When handling yeast, excellent sanitation practices are paramount or you'll be propagating and pitching "bugs" along with your yeast.

Third, to save some money, and shore up reserves for future brewing, you may want to build up a (small) yeast bank by overbuilding yeast starters, so you can save some out. Yeast should be stored refrigerated, and can remain useful like that for around a year (or 2). It can be stored much longer in a frozen state, but only when done in a certain way.

 

[IslandLizard]

Do you think something like wyeast 1010 might be a good sub to get some noticeable difference?

I've never used WY1010.
Looking at the specs she seems to be very neutral, doesn't give much expression. No surprise, she's suitable for Kolsch and AltBier, beer styles that don't want much if any yeast prominence.
https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/american-wheat
I don't think much of American Wheat beers, generally, very few exceptions noted. Then half are fruited...

Now I love (Belgian) Witbiers. For those, WY3944 had been my go to yeast for years. WLP400 is a suitable close substitute, with some different nuances.
Then I discovered East Coast Yeast. His Witbier yeast (ECY11) is from another (Belgian) brewery, and notably different.

There are over 10 (liquid) yeast companies now selling to homebrewers, compared to only 3 or 4 (AFAIK), 10 years ago. White Labs' Yeast Vault is the candy store for yeast aficionados.

Where liquid yeasts really shine is for Belgian, British, German, even many American (and Mexican) beers, you name it.
It's about the plethora of strains as much as the subtleties they offer. For example the difference between a German Pilsner and an Oktoberfest yeast may look (or even taste) subtle, until...

Another example, there is no equivalent of WY1318. I'm not the only one who's workhorse she's become exclusively for NEIPAs.

Moreover, there are no dry substitutes for any of them. A few approximations of some of the major ones, that's as close as they get. Over the last few years new more dry yeast varieties have been released than in the 20 years before, so things are looking up for those wanting to stick to dry.

Then there are a few unique dry yeasts, with no close liquid equivalents (e.g., Nottingham, Windsor, Belle Saison). You can brew over a 1000 different, excellent tasting beers with the available dry yeasts, so don't let that deter you to use them. Even if it's simply for ease of use. It's the end result that matters: good to excellent beer you like.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The idea of peach-like flavors in US-05 was a topic over in the AHA forums recently: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020? (spoiler alert: some people "get it" and some people don't). Some interesting side discussion on BRY-97 as well. There's also this from 2019 (spoiler alert: some people "get it" and some people don't).

 

[beerd]

That doesn't sound like a compelling argument to get into liquid yeasts. They need some planning, some prep time, some tinkering, and some patience.

Lol. Lazy is probably the wrong word - would be much easier to grab a case on the way out of Acme and skip the whole bit. More like time constrained and likely to find out the night before/morning of that I can squeeze one in. Definitely enjoying learning about, planning out and executing a well-sized starter for a specific purpose. Just figuring out what the best cases would be.

First, unless you have a local source to buy from (a well stocked LHBS),

My LHBS bruru is half the reason I'm considering it. Every time I go in and tell him what I'm planning and ask for a pack of US05 he gets a very subtle look of disappointment and politely suggests 1 or 2 liquid options. I might be skeptical that he's thinking in economic terms, but he's more or less refused to sell me stuff he didn't think I needed yet or downgraded me on equipment enough that I sometimes question if he has any profit motive at all.

When handling yeast, excellent sanitation practices are paramount or you'll be propagating and pitching "bugs" along with your yeast.

Yea, the incremental risk of infection, seems to make something like 1056 vs US05 moot for me. Haven't tasted any peaches and I have temperature control - no point in adding the time and risking fouling a batch.

Now I love (Belgian) Witbiers. For those, WY3944 had been my go to yeast for years. WLP400 is a suitable close substitute, with some different nuances.
Then I discovered East Coast Yeast. His Witbier yeast (ECY11) is from another (Belgian) brewery, and notably different.

Another example, there is no equivalent of WY1318. I'm not the only one who's workhorse she's become exclusively for NEIPAs.

I've not ventured into NEIPA's yet, but maybe I'll look for WY3944/WLP400/ECY11 next time at the LHBS.

I do have two small fermentors, maybe I'll do a split US05/1056 batch next time just to try out the liquid and really scrutinize them side by side - and at least likely get a few gallons out of the US05 even if I foul up the liquid on my first go round.

Thanks!