Dry hopped lager with citra, perhaps without bittering hops, suggestions?

[foolsbrew]

I like citra. Additional challenge, I'd like to impress some casual drinkers around me.

Previously, they've tried my low IBU belgian ale, and they liked it very much, better than the mass market beer. Possibly because it tasted similar to the mass market beers.

They also tried an amber ale (around 30 IBU). It was too bitter for them, and they didn't like it at all.

They also gave a zombie dust clone a try, and they considered it worse than the low IBU belgian ale, but better than the amber ale. It was decent to them, but they would prefer the mass market beer.

My next brew is a lager. It will be like urquell, so I am starting with <10 PPM very soft water. I have three options,

a) add a small amount of bittering hops (classic, no risk)
b) add a small amount of bittering hops + dry hop with citra (risky, might end up too bitter for them)
c) skip bittering hops entirely, dry hop with citra (will this work?)

I've never skipped the bittering hops entirely, but I figure since the beer they consider the best was barely 20 IBU, just the dry hops might provide enough bitterness.

Any ideas? Which would you go for? I am sure they'd like the plain urquell clone, but I wonder if skipping the bittering hops and just using citra to dry hop could work.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

I have skipped bittering many times & it saves time & effort in making beer. Once I made an ale batch of 23 litres (partial extract) with 200 gm DRY hops - citra, mosaic, southern passion and southern queen. I thought since I'm not boiling hops, no isomerisation and no or less bitterness & I'll get a ton of aroma. Man, the beer turned out to be super bitter and practically very difficult to drink. So my experience was - all bittering oils will be released in the beer no matter if you boil or not.

 

[Vale71]

So my experience was - all bittering oils will be released in the beer no matter if you boil or not.

Which is total nonsense, besides the fact that it's bittering resins and not oils.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

Which is total nonsense, besides the fact that it's bittering resins and not oils.

can you please explain the difference in terms/type of bitterness they impart vs oils?

 

[Vale71]

Resins are responsible for bitterness, oils are responsible for aroma. Oils do not impart any bitterness at all.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

Resins are responsible for bitterness, oils are responsible for aroma. Oils do not impart any bitterness at all.

Thanks, I guess the question is if resins will anyway impart bitterness, why do a 60 min boil as oils will evaporate anyways

 

[Vale71]

May I suggest you read up a bit on the basics of brewing technology and science before you start giving advice to others?

As for your specific question, resins require isomerization through heat to become soluble.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

If you

May I suggest you read up a bit on the basics of brewing technology and science before you start giving advice to others?

As for your specific question, resins require isomerization through heat to become soluble.

If you read my first post, I was sharing my own experience. The beer was bitter irrespective of no boiling of hops. And calling non-sense wasn't very polite anyways.

 

[Vale71]

My apologies if I consider centuries of scientific and technological research infinitely more reliable than "your own experience" in brewing a single beer. If being called out on the nonsense you post offends you may I again suggest you read up a little on the most basics aspects of brewing technology and science instead of just jumping to conclusions based on simplistic observations and posting them on the net.

 

[applescrap]

Welcome to hbt and great first post. I have made a citra lager and it was tasty. Your bud light friends I fear might never like anything good. But citra in a lager does make a tasty brew. Using dry hops and certainly flameout hops will create some perceived bitterness and iirc is a technique used in making neipa. There massive amounts of whirlpool hops are used to give flavor and perceived bitterness.

Do you want to make a citra lager or impress friends, I fear you cant do both. For impressing them, try bud light clone or chocolate coffee stout. The chocolate coffee stout is easy to make and always impressive to casual drinkers. Bud light clones are too. Best of luck and if you want to make the citra bud light use a newish ibu calculator that includes dry hop or whirlpool ibus. Dry hop or whirlpool or flameout ibus to 12. Basically throw 2 oz in at fo and chill. Dont whirlpool too long as hops do isomerize above 170 and that might be too much perceived biterness. It will be great, impress friends idk.

Edit, based on reviewing that brulosophy article and common sense, flameout hops especially those that whirlpool (sit) in hot water at fo dont create perceived biterness, they create real measurable biterness. Use an ibu whirlpool calculator if you go this route.


.

I like citra. Additional challenge, I'd like to impress some casual drinkers around me.

Previously, they've tried my low IBU belgian ale, and they liked it very much, better than the mass market beer. Possibly because it tasted similar to the mass market beers.

They also tried an amber ale (around 30 IBU). It was too bitter for them, and they didn't like it at all.

They also gave a zombie dust clone a try, and they considered it worse than the low IBU belgian ale, but better than the amber ale. It was decent to them, but they would prefer the mass market beer.

My next brew is a lager. It will be like urquell, so I am starting with <10 PPM very soft water. I have three options,

a) add a small amount of bittering hops (classic, no risk)
b) add a small amount of bittering hops + dry hop with citra (risky, might end up too bitter for them)
c) skip bittering hops entirely, dry hop with citra (will this work?)

I've never skipped the bittering hops entirely, but I figure since the beer they consider the best was barely 20 IBU, just the dry hops might provide enough bitterness.

Any ideas? Which would you go for? I am sure they'd like the plain urquell clone, but I wonder if skipping the bittering hops and just using citra to dry hop could work.

 

[applescrap]

I found and reviewed this brulosophy exbrmt. Boil hops vs whirlpool to same ibu. While the tester perceived all kinds of differences, he couldnt tell them apart in blind taste tests and also the lab data was similar. Anyways this shoild help you in some ways.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/02/05/kettle-hop-vs-hop-stand-exbeeriment-results/

 

[RM-MN]

Bitterness comes from the isomerization of the hop oils. It is generally understood to happen during the boil and to continue until the wort cools to less than 170 degrees Fahrenheight. Hops do not have to be boiled to add bitterness.

 

[firerat]

My apologies if I consider centuries of scientific and technological research infinitely more reliable than "your own experience" in brewing a single beer. If being called out on the nonsense you post offends you may I again suggest you read up a little on the most basics aspects of brewing technology and science instead of just jumping to conclusions based on simplistic observations and posting them on the net.

Calm down Frances, the guy just posted his own personal experience. He wasn't trying to debunk anything or discredit scientific whatever.

That's why he used the term "so my experience was" because it was HIS experience.

 

[Vale71]

Calm down Frances, the guy just posted his own personal experience. He wasn't trying to debunk anything or discredit scientific whatever.

That's why he used the term "so my experience was" because it was HIS experience.

Ok, so if I were to post "Yesterday I experienced water flowing upstream. That was MY experience so it must be right." you'd be OK with that and would accept it at face value or would you rather expose it as the nonsense it obviously is?
FYI I don't think anybody is entitled to posting nonsense on the net just because they can and I reserve the right to call BS wherever I see it.

 

[Vale71]

Bitterness comes from the isomerization of the hop oils. It is generally understood to happen during the boil and to continue until the wort cools to less than 170 degrees Fahrenheight. Hops do not have to be boiled to add bitterness.

Again it is hop resins and this discussion is about dry hopping only with no hops added hot side. When dry hopping the beer is already hopefully well below the 170°F threshold.

 

[firerat]

nevermind

 

[yoop89]

I have skipped bittering many times & it saves time & effort in making beer. Once I made an ale batch of 23 litres (partial extract) with 200 gm DRY hops - citra, mosaic, southern passion and southern queen. I thought since I'm not boiling hops, no isomerisation and no or less bitterness & I'll get a ton of aroma. Man, the beer turned out to be super bitter and practically very difficult to drink. So my experience was - all bittering oils will be released in the beer no matter if you boil or not.

In my early days of extract brewing(a whole 2 years ago, haha) I decided to try this exact method and it too ended up being perceived as really bitter. Later I learned, from a more experienced brewer, it was due to not cold crashing/waiting for the beer to settle before bottling. I ended up bottling with some hop particulates in suspension which can be perceived as bitterness or hop burn. So it is possible to get bitterness without boiling hops but just exercising some poor techniques in my case.

 

[yoop89]

b) add a small amount of bittering hops + dry hop with citra (risky, might end up too bitter for them)

This would be my vote just to be sure you come out with a well rounded lager. If you're afraid of it being "too bitter" just shoot for 10 ibus with saaz or something similar. Ive been playing with this recipe trying to get my "other" friends to start drinking my beer.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/miller-lite-really-triple-hopped.123937/

 

[hopjuice_71]

Regarding bittering beer with dry hops, see here: http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/. There are actual scientific references also contained therein.

 

[Dland]

Normally, I add about half my bittering hops in first wort (put in BK prior to wort), and the other half in last 10-20 min boil. First wort hop additions seem to me to bitter with less perception of bitterness than same hops added at beginning of boil, not sure that makes sense, but is my perception.

If you want it less bitter for bland beer lovers, just use less hops and added late in boil.

I also often do a post whirlpool step with whole leaf hops at around 170F, (temp dropped in less than 5 minutes from boil with immersion coil, then gravity fed to leaf hops in spider in another vessel). This seems to add some up front hop flavor without the joys of dry hopping,(clogs, worries about contamination, oxidation, etc). There are hop oils contributed, I can see them in the wort, but I think from flavor they are only partially isomerized, kind of splitting difference between dry hops and boiled hops.

It would be interesting to me to know the temperature threshold hops did not isomerize at all, if it still be hot enough not to present potential sanitation issues. Anyone know of a chart for that?

 

[Iseneye]

Brew for yourself and your tastes. If people like and prefer the taste of mass market lager then either become a good brewer and brew one or let them bring their own beers. I dont think any of your options are going to please your average non homebrew drinker. If anything you might be putting them off homebrew.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

In my early days of extract brewing(a whole 2 years ago, haha) I decided to try this exact method and it too ended up being perceived as really bitter. Later I learned, from a more experienced brewer, it was due to not cold crashing/waiting for the beer to settle before bottling. I ended up bottling with some hop particulates in suspension which can be perceived as bitterness or hop burn. So it is possible to get bitterness without boiling hops but just exercising some poor techniques in my case.

Hello, I didn’t mention that I did filter the beer and had used finings as well prior to bottling. I left finings in the fermenter for 2 days. I didn’t do whirlpool as I hadn’t boiled the hops.I don’t have problems with more protein in the beer. Now a days I don’t use finings but always filter beer prior to bottling. I think I used a lot of hops for that batch which caused extra bitterness.

 

[foolsbrew]

I have skipped bittering many times & it saves time & effort in making beer. Once I made an ale batch of 23 litres (partial extract) with 200 gm DRY hops - citra, mosaic, southern passion and southern queen. I thought since I'm not boiling hops, no isomerisation and no or less bitterness & I'll get a ton of aroma. Man, the beer turned out to be super bitter and practically very difficult to drink. So my experience was - all bittering oils will be released in the beer no matter if you boil or not.

Thanks, I will brew a light beer with a short boil (<30min) and only dry hops as an experiment next.

Resins are responsible for bitterness, oils are responsible for aroma. Oils do not impart any bitterness at all.

My apologies if I consider centuries of scientific and technological research infinitely more reliable than "your own experience" in brewing a single beer. If being called out on the nonsense you post offends you may I again suggest you read up a little on the most basics aspects of brewing technology and science instead of just jumping to conclusions based on simplistic observations and posting them on the net.

Ok, so if I were to post "Yesterday I experienced water flowing upstream. That was MY experience so it must be right." you'd be OK with that and would accept it at face value or would you rather expose it as the nonsense it obviously is?
FYI I don't think anybody is entitled to posting nonsense on the net just because they can and I reserve the right to call BS wherever I see it.

Good point, though we can both agree that we understood his actual point, "even if you don't boil hops, there will be bitterness coming from them"
I don't think he is speaking nonsense at all, he is just technically wrong by your account. He just attributes the result to different terms.

This would be my vote just to be sure you come out with a well rounded lager. If you're afraid of it being "too bitter" just shoot for 10 ibus with saaz or something similar. Ive been playing with this recipe trying to get my "other" friends to start drinking my beer.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/miller-lite-really-triple-hopped.123937/

This is what I ended up doing. <10 PPM water, <10 IBU achieved with SAAZ 2.5% alpha to achieve the beer taste without a lot of actual bitterness, and a pilsen/crystal mix.

I found and reviewed this brulosophy exbrmt. Boil hops vs whirlpool to same ibu. While the tester perceived all kinds of differences, he couldnt tell them apart in blind taste tests and also the lab data was similar. Anyways this shoild help you in some ways.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/02/05/kettle-hop-vs-hop-stand-exbeeriment-results/

This seems to confirm the personal anecdote of @Vale71, thanks.

Regarding bittering beer with dry hops, see here: http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/. There are actual scientific references also contained therein.

Very helpful, thanks

Normally, I add about half my bittering hops in first wort (put in BK prior to wort), and the other half in last 10-20 min boil. First wort hop additions seem to me to bitter with less perception of bitterness than same hops added at beginning of boil, not sure that makes sense, but is my perception.

If you want it less bitter for bland beer lovers, just use less hops and added late in boil.

I also often do a post whirlpool step with whole leaf hops at around 170F, (temp dropped in less than 5 minutes from boil with immersion coil, then gravity fed to leaf hops in spider in another vessel). This seems to add some up front hop flavor without the joys of dry hopping,(clogs, worries about contamination, oxidation, etc). There are hop oils contributed, I can see them in the wort, but I think from flavor they are only partially isomerized, kind of splitting difference between dry hops and boiled hops.

It would be interesting to me to know the temperature threshold hops did not isomerize at all, if it still be hot enough not to present potential sanitation issues. Anyone know of a chart for that?

These days I just do a boil hop and a aroma hop at below 160F, and occasionally dry hop. I used to do the complex hop schedules where you added each hop 15 minutes after each other, but I don't think it makes a difference in the end against just adding lesser amounts to boil and shifting some of the late hops to whirlpool.
I would worry less about the sanitation than the usual around this forum, since I have known people who open ferment things(beer and otherwise). They didn't work in extraordinary clean environments, and never saw an infection. I am sure some stuff got in at a microbacterial level, but it didn't seem to make a negative difference to the end result.

There are charts on sanitisation levels online, https://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?16776-Hot-water-sanitization-chart generally anything that spends several minutes in 160F looks safe.