Double-mash into software ?

[sawbossFogg]

I've been a BSM user for quite a while, but unsure how to log a double mash (that is use the first mash runnings to mash a second grain bed) in the software. Any insights into this? Any other softwares like Brewers Friend capable of this?

 

[Double_D]

Maybe this is a stupid question. But is "BSM" Beer Smith? It seems like you're trying to do a parti gyle in reverse. And I'm pretty sure that's an option, not in reverse, like normal parti gyle. I just don't have my lap top handy to check. It's far easier and cheaper to mash with more grain and take the hit on efficiency(potential loss)than it would be to mash, lauter, reheat, mash again, lauter again, sparge, and boil. What are you trying to do specifically besides make your brew day long, hard, and complicated?

 

[HollisBT]

What are you trying to do specifically besides make your brew day long, hard, and complicated?

This is the more important question... And technically speaking, double d, any form of blending wort quantifies as a pratingly, by definition. But I also followed what you were saying re: partigyle since the most common understanding is a single mash resulting in two beers....

AND, double d was right on the head in saying that the loss of efficiency was a wash compared to cost of grain, fuel, time, etc...

If you are looking to do a partigyle, the traditional math is:


((batch size x gravity) + (batch size x gravity))/total gallons

So you can create a recipe using your own brewhouse specifications and adjust for the increased size. If you know your no spare efficiency you can do a no spare batch and then spare and make a session beer, or you can blend the two to make whatever you would like.

 

[Bobby_M]

Double mashing is using wort as the "strike water" for a new batch of grist. The end result is a very concentrated high gravity wort with horrible mash/lauter efficiency. I don't know why it would be the best way to achieve high gravity worts unless you just can't fit enough grain in a single tun. I've argued that you could achieve a similar effect either by added some malt extract to the boil or just spending an extra hour boiling down your wort to meet the gravity you're looking for. Once you get an OG over 1.200, you'll have a hard time fermenting it anyway.

 

[Double_D]

^^^Good info there^^^

 

[Calichusetts]

I don't know what you system looks like but just do an actual double mash.

Mash some 2-row and drain off and start your boil as usual.

Then mash your actual recipe...by the time you start adding your runnings, the first 2-row wort will have been significantly reduced and slightly caramelized. Then, proceed as normal.

Create two recipes in BS, one for the 2-row and note the boil time and your boil off rate. You will get the first OG from this, then just combine it with the OG of your second, real recipe.

 

[tjpfeister]

Titletown Brewing of Green Bay commonly did a "double mash" for their very high gravity beers. However, their method was to simply mash and sparge normally, but stop collecting runnings when the wort drops to a predetermined value (the following lower gravity wort was given away to homebrew club members and the floor drain). This is done twice to collect the total needed volume.
There is no reason why mashing with strike-wort wouldn't work. There's just no benefit to it. The enzymes present in the mash would be denatured by the time you went to reuse it, so its diastatic power is equivalent to water. There are several detractors including: possible negative effect on mash pH, higher gravity wort remaining trapped in grain bed, and having to reheat the wort before doubling back in.

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, there are plenty of ways to get high gravity wort rather than double mashing or "remashing" as it's sometimes called. When you only use high gravity first-wort it's called partigyle brewing. The highest gravity wort you can get out of a single mash is limited by how thick of a mash you can physically deal with and/or how much money you want to put into it. A full sack of malt, 50 pounds, for a 5 gallon batch is possible. 12 gallons of strike water goes in, 7.5g of 1.266 SG wort comes out.

 

[241]

Gotta agree with Bobby here. Nothing wrong with bumping up your gravity with some DME or LME, especially when all you're looking for is more alcohol in the finished beer. The good thing about this approach is you can add your extract, check gravity, and add more if you need to.

 

[GrogNerd]

Mosher mentions it in Radical Brewing, but it really is an outdated method of getting a higher gravity. came in handy, I guess, back before malt extract, which is more practical.

still, no reason you can't do it just for the "cool" or "I did it" factors.

 

[Bobby_M]

No argument from me. Most beers over 1.100 OG really need simple sugar to dry them out too so don't forget a couple pounds of table sugar is fine.

 

[241]

You could also experiment with longer mash times to maximize your efficiency. I've done 90 minute mashes at 149F with great results.

 

[sawbossFogg]

So many excellent responses here, no room to quote them all. Thanks. For interest sake my intentions were to make a 1080 trippel with as much malt as I can cram in my 10 gallon cooler appropriately as well as course DME (which is too pricey even bought in bulk) and less than 10 to 15 percent sucrose and/glucose. I was able to accomplish this with my setup in one run. I have no interest really in a party gyle as I prefer only to ferment in my temp controlled conical. The reason I was attempting to max was for 14 gallon batch to largely fill a 15 gallon bourbon barrel in one round.

Anyway, I harvested just under 14 gallons of 1080 golden wort into the fermenter and pitched with about 3000ml of fine 2nd ten WL 500 Trappist. Its ripping away at 71 F. I'd let it get up to 75, but I don't think the ambient temp of my garage will allow it on its own.

Thanks for the thoughts, idea and tips, very helpful, cheers!

 

[sawbossFogg]

Double mashing is using wort as the "strike water" for a new batch of grist. The end result is a very concentrated high gravity wort with horrible mash/lauter efficiency. I don't know why it would be the best way to achieve high gravity worts unless you just can't fit enough grain in a single tun. I've argued that you could achieve a similar effect either by added some malt extract to the boil or just spending an extra hour boiling down your wort to meet the gravity you're looking for. Once you get an OG over 1.200, you'll have a hard time fermenting it anyway.

Thats exactly the situation so that is why I was considering it. I'm generally maxing out my signal infusion 10 gallon mash for 10-14 gallon batches.

 

[sawbossFogg]

I don't know what you system looks like but just do an actual double mash.

Mash some 2-row and drain off and start your boil as usual.

Then mash your actual recipe...by the time you start adding your runnings, the first 2-row wort will have been significantly reduced and slightly caramelized. Then, proceed as normal.

Create two recipes in BS, one for the 2-row and note the boil time and your boil off rate. You will get the first OG from this, then just combine it with the OG of your second, real recipe.

Right, really I was wondering if anyone knows of a method or a software that allows for multiple mashes and the like in a single recipe. Averaging fractions is pretty simple.

 

[sawbossFogg]

Titletown Brewing of Green Bay commonly did a "double mash" for their very high gravity beers. However, their method was to simply mash and sparge normally, but stop collecting runnings when the wort drops to a predetermined value (the following lower gravity wort was given away to homebrew club members and the floor drain). This is done twice to collect the total needed volume.
There is no reason why mashing with strike-wort wouldn't work. There's just no benefit to it. The enzymes present in the mash would be denatured by the time you went to reuse it, so its diastatic power is equivalent to water. There are several detractors including: possible negative effect on mash pH, higher gravity wort remaining trapped in grain bed, and having to reheat the wort before doubling back in.

Right, I am curios about mash pH in the true double mash. And yeah I strayed cause I think a parti glyle would almost be requisite as otherwise waste would be substantial.