Dominate a room with yeast?

[sentfromspain]

Hi all, I've recently become acquainted with a new microbrewery which is having a huge problem. You see, these guys have never brewed a beer in their life. They have just started up, and have 1600 liters of beer - 800 in bottles and 800 in the fermenters.

What's the issue? It's all infected with lactobacillus.

Since I come around from time to time and give them samples of my hombrew, they want me to come in and fix this. Now, apart from making double sure that all bottles have been cleaned - which apparently, they tell me they didn't bother to do - and that all the equipment, floors, walls, is treated with industrial strength brewery cleaning chemicals, I also wanted to take an additional step.

I know that there are breweries out there that have open fermentation tanks, and while lots of these guys do this to take advantage of wild yeasts, others do it because the rooms have been dominated by a specific kind of yeast.

My big question:

If - after thoroughly cleaning the brewery - I were to brew a fresh batch of wort and throw in some yeast, let it thrive for a couple of days, and then go around the brewery spraying the walls and floors with that yeast colony, would that yeast dominate the room? Would it be more difficult for a wild yeast like lactobacillus to come in and attack the beer?

Obviously I would have to make sure the brewery was clean again before brewing, but the microorganisms would still be there to a degree I figure. Thoughts?

 

[Shred]

It seems to me this would invite bacteria once the yeast becomes dormant, no?

 

[highgravitybacon]

Hi all, I've recently become acquainted with a new microbrewery which is having a huge problem. You see, these guys have never brewed a beer in their life. They have just started up, and have 1600 liters of beer - 800 in bottles and 800 in the fermenters.

What's the issue? It's all infected with lactobacillus.

Since I come around from time to time and give them samples of my hombrew, they want me to come in and fix this. Now, apart from making double sure that all bottles have been cleaned - which apparently, they tell me they didn't bother to do - and that all the equipment, floors, walls, is treated with industrial strength brewery cleaning chemicals, I also wanted to take an additional step.

I know that there are breweries out there that have open fermentation tanks, and while lots of these guys do this to take advantage of wild yeasts, others do it because the rooms have been dominated by a specific kind of yeast.

My big question:

If - after thoroughly cleaning the brewery - I were to brew a fresh batch of wort and throw in some yeast, let it thrive for a couple of days, and then go around the brewery spraying the walls and floors with that yeast colony, would that yeast dominate the room? Would it be more difficult for a wild yeast like lactobacillus to come in and attack the beer?

Obviously I would have to make sure the brewery was clean again before brewing, but the microorganisms would still be there to a degree I figure. Thoughts?

No, this is a horrible idea. You might as well spray feces on the walls. A proper cleaning of everything that can be cleaned is in order.

 

[kombat]

I would not bother wasting any energy on this endeavour, as it's clear to me that this brewery will not exist for very long.

 

[sentfromspain]

Well it was a hypothetical thought, but it appears the reaction is super negative.

Then general consensus is clean the crap out of the place x 1000. I still have yet to figure out if they painted the walls with anti-fungal paint. But it seemed to me that the company which had originally evaluated the brewery's capability did a lousy job at talking to them about maintenance.

 

[smokinghole]

It's not a dominant microorganism issue it's a cleanliness issue. Don't spray the walls with yeast.


How to they clean their fermentors? Are they using caustic cleaner (NaOH with things like chelating agents and antifoam) followed by a nitric acid cycle between each new fermentation? The acid cycle isn't entirely needed each time but if it was me I'd run caustic and acid each time.

Are the fermentors closed cylindroconical fermentors or are they using open top fermentors?

How are they starting each new fermentation? Have they bought a new yeast culture recently or are the contaminated beers all fermented with the same culture? Do they transfer yeast from fermentor to fermentor or do they use a vessel to transfer the yeast? How are they handling a beer at peak of fermentation? Do they use an airlock bucket to catch the foam, or are they pressure fermented?

Do they filter? How do they filter if they do filter? How do they clean the filter if they filter? How do they clean/sanitize their hoses for packaging? How and how often do they clean the bottling line and the kegging line? How are their kegs cleaned? How are their bottles stored?

As you can see there are many sources and points that the contamination can be introduced. The focus needs to be on beer contact surfaces first then after those are all cleaned/sanitized properly they can look at cleaning the whole place up. The reality is that you will never get rid of contaminate microorganisms like bacteria and wild yeast in the brewery, it's just an issue of management and proper cleaning and care of beer contact surfaces.

Are

 

[sentfromspain]

Thanks smoking. Those are all important things to consider and I will go over it with these guys. The first thing I figure is just throw out the contaminated beer, remove everything that is unnecessary from the brewery, and clean it all with industrial strength phosphoric acid and sodium hydroxide.

As far as I know, they use chemipro oxi - which, when I used it, often didn't do the job for me. It might be a fine cleaner, but what they have here is an agressive bacteria and I would rather use what my friends at other microbreweries use. The fermenters are stainless steel hermetically closed cone fermenters, and have tiny airlocks at the top. I imagine there's nothing wrong with these apart from the fact that they are all full of lacto, so that's a cleaning issue.

No filtering to speak of, and the yeast is dry yeast from a fermentis box. The bottles and caps come straight from the factory, but the brewery owners don't clean before hand - which I think is a major error and so we'll have to put together something to clean the bottles with sodium hydroxide before bottling. The hoses for transferring the wort and beer also seem like a likely place for contamination, so they will have to show me what they do for that.

 

[smokinghole]

Most breweries in the US are using a peroxyacetic acid sanitizer, some are using an iodine/nitric acid sanitizer like Divosan. A proper cleaning of the fermentors and sanitizing should take care of the contamination. A small contamination testing kit would help out a lot after cleaning them just to make sure. I'd test the final rinse water rather than the vessels themselves. You could also check the bottles but likely they are not the source of the contamination. Most breweries only rinse the bottles prior to packaging rather than a sanitizing step. They should be arriving clean and wrapped to protect them.

The air locks could be the issue because if there is no pressure on the fermentor they could possibly suck in air/dirty airlock water. Are they glycol jacketed fermentors? The only reason I ask is unless the fermentor is actually sealed, when they cool the beer it could cause a slight vacuum allowing the contamination into the batch. Is the manway access a door in the side or is it a bottom manway fermentor. I assume a door in the side because bottom manways are normally on 100bbl and larger fermentors.

How are they filling the bottles/kegs? Those need special attention because if they are automatic fillers there are a lot of valve seats and other gaskets that have had contaminated product pass through.

I would guess it's either their hoses/pumps or possibly the air locks. They either need to run a circulation loop on the hoses and pump with sanitizer or hot water at about 85C.

 

[sentfromspain]

@smoking, I will figure these things out on wednesday.

Real quick question: what of the following is the best product for cleaning? Alkaline detergent (sodium hydroxide), phosphoric acid detergent, or hydrogen peroxide - peracetic acid detergent? Or is a combination better?

I always use the alkaline and phosphoric, but I do wonder if the peracetic acid is better...

 

[lunshbox]

Regardless of how far these guys are in over their head, Smokinghole is only about a million percent correct. Also, any plastic or rubber pieces in their system should be replaced. I have specifically set up my brewery to keep all bugs confined to the barrel room. You can not be too careful when it comes to cleanliness. I hear it is next to godliness or something.

 

[mattd2]

@smoking, I will figure these things out on wednesday.

Real quick question: what of the following is the best product for cleaning? Alkaline detergent (sodium hydroxide), phosphoric acid detergent, or hydrogen peroxide - peracetic acid detergent? Or is a combination better?

I always use the alkaline and phosphoric, but I do wonder if the peracetic acid is better...

As far as I know, Alkalis (caustic soda / NaOH) for cleaning soil deposits and acid rinse for sanitising (Nitric or Peracetic acid). A pre rinse with acid (nitric) is usuaful once in a while to help remove beer stone/mineral deposits.

Really it sounds like they need an brewery consultant that deasl with this as their dayjob to advise them and give them a fair bit of training - not saying you arn't doing a good job but from the sounds of it I think these guys have a long way to go.

Or sit back, start getting your finances in order and wait for a cheap brewery to come on the market

 

[el_caro]

I would not bother wasting any energy on this endeavour, as it's clear to me that this brewery will not exist for very long.

Perhaps the OP might just tell us the name of this brewery so I can put an alert on my GPS.

 

[sentfromspain]

@el caro It's in Spain so don't sweat it Either one of two things will happen, I will fix the brewery or the brewery will go under.

@mattd2 The problem is that they have been dealing with a brewery consultant. All of the equipment, recipes (which are god awful), and materials come from this shop in another city that "specializes" in this kind of thing. But from what I gather, the consultants are useless. To me it just looks like they sold them 50,000k worth of equipment, gave them a general idea about how to make beer, and pushed them out the door.

These guys are in over their heads, and since they are living off credit, I figured that I could help them in some way. Though I'll admit that my hypothesis on the yeast dominancy was way off. In any case, we will see how the next 2 months go.

 

[mattd2]

@el caro It's in Spain so don't sweat it Either one of two things will happen, I will fix the brewery or the brewery will go under.

@mattd2 The problem is that they have been dealing with a brewery consultant. All of the equipment, recipes (which are god awful), and materials come from this shop in another city that "specializes" in this kind of thing. But from what I gather, the consultants are useless. To me it just looks like they sold them 50,000k worth of equipment, gave them a general idea about how to make beer, and pushed them out the door.

These guys are in over their heads, and since they are living off credit, I figured that I could help them in some way. Though I'll admit that my hypothesis on the yeast dominancy was way off. In any case, we will see how the next 2 months go.

Damn that sucks for them, pretty big risk to take if you have no experience though.
A good resource is www.probrewer.com check it out - good one here for you http://www.probrewer.com/resources/stupidstuff/cleaning.php

 

[Navy_Chief]

If - after thoroughly cleaning the brewery - I were to brew a fresh batch of wort and throw in some yeast, let it thrive for a couple of days, and then go around the brewery spraying the walls and floors with that yeast colony, would that yeast dominate the room? Would it be more difficult for a wild yeast like lactobacillus to come in and attack the beer?

I am going to be brutally honest here.

The quoted statement in itself shows that you are in over your head in helping them, the best advise you can give them at this point is to hire a new consultant; somebody who makes a living helping breweries stay in business and understands brewing, packaging, cleaning, and sanitizing on a commercial scale.

 

[sentfromspain]

@Navy

While I appreciate your honesty, it was a theoretical question. I do not have a background in microbiology - I graduated from UC Davis with a degree in Art. And while I keep everything I have spotless, the idea did not sound far fetched. There are breweries that have open top fermenters: Sierra Nevada, Anchor, and numerous English, Belgian and German brewers use them. These breweries do rigorous cleaning, but many do not use filtered air and part of me felt that perhaps yeast dominance had something to do with it. The only stupid questions are the ones left unasked, and I wouldn't start throwing around buckets of yeast without taking the time to learn about it. First stop was the forums.

As I said before, the consultants available are not working out. What they have done is sold these guys some brewing equipment and told them more or less: good luck. Which is to say, the brewery has spent as much money as they can on equipment and consultancy services. Instead of giving up and selling the equipment, they want me to give it a shot since I have more brewing experience than any of the microbreweries in the province.

And whether I have commercial experience or not, the brewery that I have been talking to only has a 200 liter machine, and has five 200 liter fermenters. It isn't too different from what I have at home - just a small step up. So yes, it will be a new experience and require extra effort on my part, but some things you can do yourself.

 

[mattd2]

Find out what cleaners and sanitisers they use, and how they use them. Post it here and we can all make suggestions. Again this would be from mainly a homebrewers perspective, try the probrewer forum for advise from others in the industry. Seems like they are pretty willing to help as I would guess a lot of them have been in similar situations so they know how these guys feel.

 

[passedpawn]

... and then go around the brewery spraying the walls and floors with that yeast colony

I do not have a background in microbiology - I graduated from UC Davis with a degree in Art.

Jackson Pollock fan I presume

I toured a small brewery in Germany that used open, concrete fermentors. Crazy. I wonder how that can work. It was an altbier brewery. Their yeast was everywhere.

 

[sentfromspain]

@Matt They use chemipro oxi which is not a very good cleaner as far as I'm concerned. That's it. I have told them to buy some alkaline, peracetic, and phosphoric acid chemicals from the industrial food grade company Betelgeux. The name doesn't inspire much, but I've been using their chemicals for over a year and haven't had a single infection. I used to be a big fan of starsan before, but importation costs are killer.

@passedpawn How did you know I was a Jackson Pollack fan? Amazing.

And that video is exactly what I'm talking about. I figured that those places are just so dominated by the yeast strain that nothing else would be able to grow. It'd be nice to talk to a brewer from one of those breweries, but obviously the best way to prevent infection is good brewery practices.

 

[sentfromspain]

Tomorrow I will be reviewing their step by step process and then coming down with a way to seriously improve their methods.

 

[mattd2]

@Matt They use chemipro oxi which is not a very good cleaner as far as I'm concerned. That's it. I have told them to buy some alkaline, peracetic, and phosphoric acid chemicals from the industrial food grade company Betelgeux. The name doesn't inspire much, but I've been using their chemicals for over a year and haven't had a single infection. I used to be a big fan of starsan before, but importation costs are killer...

Yep Chemipro Oxi seems to be just a Oxiclean type product that a lot of homebrewers use to clean their stuff but not the best for a comercial operation.
I just had a quick look at the Betelgeux website, they look like a decent company that should know their stuff CIP/chemical wise. I know that the chemical companies here in NZ have product reps that are more than willing to do a site visit to show how their products work and what the is best solution for their problem. I suggest get in contact with Betelgeux, tell them your/their situation and organise someone to come out and advise.
Again Starsan is a great product for homebrewers but it is just a proprietory mix of chemicals that provide a good sanitiser - any chemical supplier will have a similar product. I don't think too many comercial brewers would use Starsan because of the foaming (causes problems with recircing through sprayballs during CIP), but 5 Star do a similar non-foaming sanitiser (Saniclean or something), this is where you need to get the supplier to really advise which of their products are best.

 

[crushingblackdoom]

Loving this thread.
Good luck, *Spain.

 

[sentfromspain]

oh man, I don't even want to begin talking about the biological warfare that is going on in that place. The main causes for contamination are pretty apparent, and the solutions involve cleaning the bejusus out of everything... but I did have one question.

These guys have cone fermenters. The cone fermenters, upon opening the bottom valve to release the dead yeast, cause the airlocks to sputter violently. Though the airlocks are filled with alcohol, there is a chance that something could get into the fermenter. Since I've never used these kinds of fermenters before (only flat bottoms), I am not sure what the remedy for this could be. Thoughts? I don't think this is the main cause for the infection, but you never know. If you have any suggestions to avoid the airlock sputtering, let me know. Maybe cleaning the top of the fermenter with alcohol and then removing the airlock before releasing the dead yeast cells would work, considering the fact that there will be a blanket of CO2 protecting the beer from oxidation? Maybe?

 

[mattd2]

oh man, I don't even want to begin talking about the biological warfare that is going on in that place. The main causes for contamination are pretty apparent, and the solutions involve cleaning the bejusus out of everything... but I did have one question.

These guys have cone fermenters. The cone fermenters, upon opening the bottom valve to release the dead yeast, cause the airlocks to sputter violently. Though the airlocks are filled with alcohol, there is a chance that something could get into the fermenter. Since I've never used these kinds of fermenters before (only flat bottoms), I am not sure what the remedy for this could be. Thoughts? I don't think this is the main cause for the infection, but you never know. If you have any suggestions to avoid the airlock sputtering, let me know. Maybe cleaning the top of the fermenter with alcohol and then removing the airlock before releasing the dead yeast cells would work, considering the fact that there will be a blanket of CO2 protecting the beer from oxidation? Maybe?

A lot of the comercial setup I have seen (talking a fair bit bigger than 200 litres) have a low pressure co2 purge on their fermenters - excess CO2 goes out the pressure relief valve, tank inbreaths from cooling/dumping trub the CO2 flows in.