Doing the unthinkable

[raysmithtx]

I have a recipe for a Belgium Double that is great but the alcohol content is so high you really have to be careful when you drink it.

I would like to keep the flavor as close as possible and reduce the alcohol content. As I understand it if I reduce the amount of grain (keeping the percentages the same) I will end up with a watered down beer. If I stop the fermentation I will end up with a sweet beer.

Any suggestions on the best way to reduce the alcohol content and keep the flavor as close to the original as possible?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

First things first we would want to see the original recipe so we could see the percentages and how the recipe is broken down.

My first reaction to a Belgian style with the intent of reducing alcohol content would be to remove/reduce the sugar additions. Belgian beers get a lot of their ABV from sugar additions (increased attenuation, increased fermentables without adding more grain).

Reduce whatever sugar additions there are in the recipe by 50-75% and you'll get a fair drop in ABV (the yeast wont attenuate as well and you'll remove a big chunk of the fermentables).

 

[Bosh]

Mash higher?

 

[Mike_kever_kombi]

I regularly brew Belgians at much less ABV than "standards" dictate.

I went through my cram as much alcohol in the bottle as you can phase, and am past it.

For me, there are a few things I do to keep that Belgian flavor while reducing the abv to the 4-5% range. Most of the time I will not reduce by a percentage across the board. Only base grains get scaled back, specialty grains (generally) remain as is.

Mash higher at a higher temp. I aim for around 154-156.

Use the belgian candy sugar (syrup), but use the next darker "flavor", or learn to make your own and control the taste. That's what I'd do.

Under pitch. Stress those yeast out, that's where your flavor profile is developed. Lastly cook hot. For my golden "strongs" I am around 28.3C.

My reduced ABV Belgians have the same basic flavor profile, but you can drink many more before you hit the "how did I end up on the kitchen floor passed out" stage.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Well, with mash temp, that may not have as great an effect in the end as the OP wants.

http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/12/the-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

During that exbeeriment there was a 14F difference in mash temps to achieve only a mere 1% different in ABV. Part of me wonders if there would be that big of a difference in a recipe that has sugar additions which will naturally attenuate higher.

The biggest issue right now is not knowing the recipe the OP wants to adjust to a lower ABV. Is is a Belgian Dubbel thats 'traditional' in its approach with only Pilsner/simple sugar/medium dark candi sugar. Or is it a Belgian Dubbel with specialty malts like special B for color and simple sugar for ABV/Dryness?

Personally I wouldn't want to reduce the malts at all since up to 20% of the fermentables are often sugar. You could end up with very little maltose and a lot of simple sugars for the yeast, and the OP ends up with a beer with low body and maybe not that much lower ABV.

 

[raysmithtx]

The biggest issue right now is not knowing the recipe the OP wants to adjust to a lower ABV. Is is a Belgian Dubbel thats 'traditional' in its approach with only Pilsner/simple sugar/medium dark candi sugar. Or is it a Belgian Dubbel with specialty malts like special B for color and simple sugar for ABV/Dryness?

Here's the recipe. Note that the ABV is 7.5% and that does not include the sugars from the figs.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.38 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.98 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.074 SG
Estimated Color: 17.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 22.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.3 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3.80 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
3.40 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
1.30 ml Lactic Acid (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 3 -
0.80 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 4 -
9 lbs 8.9 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 61.5 %
4 lbs 12.5 oz Munich II (Weyermann) (8.5 SRM) Grain 6 30.8 %
9.6 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.8 %
4.8 oz Pale Chocolate (250.0 SRM) Grain 8 1.9 %
4.8 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 9 1.9 %
1.22 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop 10 18.6 IBUs
0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 11 -
1.50 lb Carmelized Figs (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 12 -
1.22 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 13 0.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522) [12 Yeast 14 -
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 15 -
3.00 lb Fig Puree (Primary 2.0 days) Flavor 16 -


Mash Schedule:
122 for 30 minutes
151 for 30 minutes
Mash out at 168

Notes:
------
Base recipe taken from here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/fig-belgian-dubbel-recipe-thoughts-suggestions-352169/

Night before brewing:
Remove both containers of figs from freezer and put in refrigerator
Add 1.5 pounds of figs with 10 minutes remaining in boil.

FIG PREPARATION:
Divide the figs into 2 groups on 2 separate cookie sheets (with sides). One 1.5 pound of whole fige and one ~3 pound bag of pureed figs. I baked all of them at 170 degrees for about 3 hours. I sanitized a tupperware container and put the 1.5 pounds whole figs in it.

Put both containers into the freezer immediately.

Fig puree:
3 lbs of fig puree to be added after the initial fermentation has dropped off (2-3 days) for use in secondary fermentor for a 7 days. Thaw puree in microwave to pitching temp.

Ferment at 65 degrees and use a starter.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Ah so the primary character of your beer comes from the Figs, the Munich and the specialty malts.



You could reduce the Munich or the Pilsner, but those are the primary "meat" to your beer. I think the beer would suffer from reducing the pilsner/munich amounts. Same with the specialty malts, reducing those would majorly mess with the back ground flavor.



Since you can't really predict 100% how much sugar is added with the figs, your best bet is to reduce the fig addition. You should still get all the flavor. Keep the carmelized addition in the boil, but cut down the fermenter addition by half. The sugar content of the figs could be as high as 20% by weight (depending on a lot of factors of course). Are you measuring the carmelized figs weight before or after carmelization? If after carmelizing them you could be adding more sugar than if you measured them pre-cooking (a lot of water is driven off).



The added simple sugars (fructose from the fruit) will drive attenuation past what just the simple sugars add a little bit like turbo charging them theyll attack the simple sugars first then go on to ferment more of the complex maltose sugars well. Reducing the uncontrollable fermentables like fruit is probably the easiest and most straight forward to keep the beer largely the same while reducing the ABV (you can't 100% predict how much sugar there is in the fruit nor can you predict how much additional attenuation the fructose sugars will cause in the beer).



Edit: Youl could also increase your mash temp, but since you are already doing a 151F rest, going up to 158ish wouldn't have a very large effect on your final gravity, at best you'd only reduce your ABV by half a percent.

Edit:Edit: Big question, how much of a drop in abv are you attempting to achieve?

 

[Rdom]

There's also a lot of fermentable sugar in 4.5lbs of figs that's not included in that 7.5% ABV. I suspect you're getting a pretty big boost in the ABV from the figs. I would cut them back a bit but also cut back the pilsner malt so you're starting from a more modest ABV before adding the fig puree.

 

[raysmithtx]

There's also a lot of fermentable sugar in 4.5lbs of figs that's not included in that 7.5% ABV. I suspect you're getting a pretty big boost in the ABV from the figs. I would cut them back a bit but also cut back the pilsner malt so you're starting from a more modest ABV before adding the fig puree.

Thanks for the advice.

Ah so the primary character of your beer comes from the Figs, the Munich and the specialty malts.

You could reduce the Munich or the Pilsner, but those are the primary "meat" to your beer. I think the beer would suffer from reducing the pilsner/munich amounts. Same with the specialty malts, reducing those would majorly mess with the back ground flavor.

Since you can't really predict 100% how much sugar is added with the figs, your best bet is to reduce the fig addition. You should still get all the flavor. Keep the carmelized addition in the boil, but cut down the fermenter addition by half. The sugar content of the figs could be as high as 20% by weight (depending on a lot of factors of course). Are you measuring the carmelized figs weight before or after carmelization? If after carmelizing them you could be adding more sugar than if you measured them pre-cooking (a lot of water is driven off).

The added simple sugars (fructose from the fruit) will drive attenuation past what just the simple sugars add a little bit like turbo charging them theyll attack the simple sugars first then go on to ferment more of the complex maltose sugars well. Reducing the uncontrollable fermentables like fruit is probably the easiest and most straight forward to keep the beer largely the same while reducing the ABV (you can't 100% predict how much sugar there is in the fruit nor can you predict how much additional attenuation the fructose sugars will cause in the beer).

Edit: Youl could also increase your mash temp, but since you are already doing a 151F rest, going up to 158ish wouldn't have a very large effect on your final gravity, at best you'd only reduce your ABV by half a percent.

Edit:Edit: Big question, how much of a drop in abv are you attempting to achieve?

OK guys. How does this sound? I can reduce the Pilsner by 10% and the ABV drops by about .5%. From there I can reduce the fig addition by 50% to achieve another considerable drop in the alcohol.

Does that seem reasonable? Too much? Not enough? The fig flavor is outstanding in this beer so that's what I'm really trying to preserve.

 

[Bosh]

I regularly brew Belgians at much less ABV than "standards" dictate.

I went through my cram as much alcohol in the bottle as you can phase, and am past it.

For me, there are a few things I do to keep that Belgian flavor while reducing the abv to the 4-5% range. Most of the time I will not reduce by a percentage across the board. Only base grains get scaled back, specialty grains (generally) remain as is.

Mash higher at a higher temp. I aim for around 154-156.

Use the belgian candy sugar (syrup), but use the next darker "flavor", or learn to make your own and control the taste. That's what I'd do.

Under pitch. Stress those yeast out, that's where your flavor profile is developed. Lastly cook hot. For my golden "strongs" I am around 28.3C.

My reduced ABV Belgians have the same basic flavor profile, but you can drink many more before you hit the "how did I end up on the kitchen floor passed out" stage.

Good advice. Gotta scale the % of stuff that isn't base malt to weaker or stronger recipes. That's why English milds should have a hell of a lot higher percentage of specialty malt than an English barleywine.

 

[madcowbrewing]

Good article on fruit addition to your beer here...
http://www.morebeer.com/articles/fruit_in_beer

Dates are their list and I believe figs have 25% less sugar, so for every pound of figs per gallon you add 13.55 gravity points. So the original recipe added 11 points to take it to 1.085...you said it was 7.5% without the figs so I assume a FG of 1.017.... so assuming all that, the figs added 1.4% for an 8.9% final beer.....whew.... someone check my math...

 

[raysmithtx]

Good article on fruit addition to your beer here...
http://www.morebeer.com/articles/fruit_in_beer

Dates are their list and I believe figs have 25% less sugar, so for every pound of figs per gallon you add 13.55 gravity points. So the original recipe added 11 points to take it to 1.085...you said it was 7.5% without the figs so I assume a FG of 1.017.... so assuming all that, the figs added 1.4% for an 8.9% final beer.....whew.... someone check my math...

Thank you for the link.
I did some searching and found out that figs have 16g of sugar per pound. So .16X37=5.92. So figs add 5.92 gravity points per pound and I use 3.5 pounds for a total of 20.72 points. Assuming 75% extraction that is (20.72*.75) 15.5 GU. 1.074+15.5=1.090 for the "actual" OG. 1.090-1.017=.073. So ABV is .073*131.25=9.6%ABV. So if my numbers are correct, it's even stronger. And that is what prompted my original question. It tastes great but it's just too much alcohol to enjoy more than one.